Parallel Production and new boards

[Reyhn]

Awesome news, hopefully my first pay ever will be for ED and a Pyra !

 

[PowerGod]

Let the rainbow hell begins !!
 

 

[Mr_Loon]

So what does that all mean?

Well, it means that we'll have some pre-production models ready in October / November.
 

Thanks for the update ED, great to hear that we appear to be entering the final straight.

Just wondering if you had a clear idea how many pre production models you plan to build & for how long they will be tested before the OK for mass production will be given.

 

[FaeMinx]

Let the rainbow hell begins !!

Careful what you wish for.

Black or Midnight Red (almost black)

are my choices...

Hurry up ED and let us know what the options are?

... and I'm also assuming preorders are only starting when you have a working pre-production unit in hand?

 

[Swordfish II]

 It will be real easy for the average consumer at a quick glance, to see the Pyra in black and say, oh, that's a Pandora(I want nothing to do with that). Right out the gate, you've lost potential customers.

If I asked 100 people in my office right now what a Pyra and/or Pandora are.....they would look at me like I am crazy.  People will see a Pyra and do the same thing people do when they see my Pandora... ask what it is.

With such a minor (small) run few people are even aware of this tech, and those that are certainly wouldn't confuse the Pyra for the Pandora, so what you suggest will not happen.

 

[Grench]

Back when they first made the Pandora, it was pretty murky who pre-production models should go to.  With the Pyra it should be pretty straight forward.  

The crew that is currently active in development should be the top of the list.  Then go through the Pandora repo and find the most prolific programmers and porters.  Then if there are a few more available, find the most prolific reviewers/raters of other's work.  Those people should be offered a numbered early unit at expected retail price - with a signed agreement that they cannot resell the device for a period of 180 days, but are allowed to return it for a full refund within that time period.  That kind of agreement would help mitigate risks for both ED's company and the content creators.

Now, IF there are a few units beyond what is needed for the above types, THEN auction a few off to help offset costs.  I don't think anyone has advocated ONLY auctioning off early units.

Of course, I would also like to see the first 100 true production units be reserved for auction (and stated as such to the pre-order audience).
Units 101+ should be pre-order eligible.  This lets DragonBox capitalize on that initial product madness.  If those first 100 units can average $1000+ per unit, ED should capitalize on that for a couple of weeks then ship the first 500+ pre-order units the following week.

Note, in this plan random Pandora users and new people without a proven porting/programming track record are excluded from getting the early units.  I would not meet any of the criteria for early units.  I do plan to pre-order just as soon as ED and Link are set up to take the order, but will likely not participate in the auctions.

There is a method to this, though.  Frankly the software and drivers should be expected to be 'very young' at that stage.  In that barely into beta hardware phase, it's best to have people who know and understand the implications of this.  What would be horrid is if some national review site got their mitts on an early pre-production unit and blasted it before the main release units could even be made and the software matured enough for general consumption.

 

[DrHAX]

I still hope with that system theres an account of daily life stress testing. Even reviewers could not grasp the alpha nature of the prototypes.

Some of the users here however would be eager to help in ways that dont involve coding,  or even give feedback.(Also to the developers) Even OS feedback could be helpful and having a few prototiypes in the hands of board members working with developers could also help answer questions too. Or even try stuff suggested by other board members. 

If I were to get a prototype in my hands i would first establish a conversation with ED, and the others involved with the direct development of the unit. This would be to directly report findings and other information. 
I would establish communications with any developer who would like to have a chance to test software and report any findings, and give feed back.

Now here is where any reviewer or such would highly differ from what I would do. I would open up a thread on the boards with daily updates showing the daily use and potentially abuse of the pyra as well as giving feedback from my opinion. However, anything I post I would like to get the okay to do so from ED or others. This even means software development so if a developer doesnt want it revealed to the public and im testing it then I wouldnt show it or mention it on the thread.   My rationale behind this is to make sure that if any issues occur that already known or have a fix coming do not potentially hurt the appearence of the Pyra. 

Another advantage of opening a thread is to answer questions, or test things I and others have not thought of as well as directly compare it to the pandora. 
So somebody may want to see a video of it running a certain game, or emulator. Or ask "I do bla bla, with the pandora how does the pyra handle that?"
or even basic stuff. "What do you think of  the case. How does it feel in your hands compared to the pandora? I do X will it fit in Y?" Etc Etc.

This also give a direct way to show case the progress of the pyra until production in a single open spot, as well as allowing the community a chance to get involved in stress testing the Pyra, and if at any time the prototype dies or has a failure that requires repair that will be documented with what caused it.


Im not a developer, I dont code, but I use my pandora daily and put alot of strain on it. With what a OMAP dev board has shown the Pyra in an alpha would replace both my laptop and my pandora which means far more physical strain on it. I also see the value of having the community have a chance to be part of testing a prototype.

 

 

[jonlad1]

Question for ED - how quickly do you think production units will be churned out? It all sounds a lot more organised than the Pandora mass production but thought I'd ask

 

[iArnold]

Always like color discussions ;-)
Metallic rainbow
or chalkboard black (or I'll use some Annie Sloan paint we use for everything)

 

 

[rygD]

I want to know the price of a prototype for testing. I'm being 100% legitimate here. I don't want one so I can get my hands on one early... I want to truly test the system in a daily use environment and "run it through the wringer."  

ED can you give me a price estimate because this is something I am really interested in helping with! ^_^

My person is in the same boat (and some people were quick on the "put it on Ebay" remarks the last time it was brought up), and know a few individuals within close proximity, that would like to tinker/hack around with it programming-wise (a couple friends are developers so they would be hugely interested).  Personally I'm interested in hardware testing and everyday use as DrHAX is (and stress testing the heck out of everything).  Good faith that ED will have enough for his core developers.  I don't agree with "just putting them on Ebay" like someone suggested before, as this is just stifling to those whom could help out with additional input - rather than being in a "FIRST" trophy case not being used.  I'm willing to pay whatever it is that ED is asking for this device, he did state that it would be quite more expensive than production runs (I can eat the cost).

_________________
Also, the displays are independent of each other?  That's awesome!  More potential here.
----------------------------
For reference:

I'd like the idea of getting my paws on one of those pre-production Pyras, even if more expensive (is to be expected).  Have you estimated cost of producing 20?

Not yet. My guess is that they'll be about twice as expensive, though.

My biggest fear of the prototypes is they're snatched up and put on a shelf for a few years to only be shown to the light for profit. Theres a CC unit on ebay going for 699$! right now... With a cracked hinge.. Needless to say I FEEL disgusted if somebody saw the pyra prototypes as "investment" and have no interest in helping the project grow. If the prototype is twice the cost of a normal production unit that may put me in a bind because I work minimal wage.. But I'll see what I can scrap together.

I'm 100% serious about stress testing a Pyra and even seeing if the modules work in the USA market. Even having a "regular" smuck having a prototype could help with software development as a test subject. 


If ED wants to make back some of the costs throwing some of the prototypes on ebay for a profit is a valid option.. but please...please don't throw them all up there. 

You could try selling one of your Pandoras to give you some cash toward the Pyra.  I can't remember how many of each you said you had.  If you still have CC you may not get much (however if the one on ebay is an auction and not a BIN asking price it might be worth throwing it on there to get some of that action).  I had a few other ideas, but I don't think any of them would work for you.  PM me if you want me to share some of them.  If you get one I will be looking forward to a video of it going down some icy stairs after falling out of a car going 35MPH.

I would like it if ED required feedback on the use of the early Pyras as part of the agreement to sell them to non-dev types.  Not sure how it could be enforced, and I wouldn't want him to need to do waste time and money with a lawyer or any of that.  Maybe offer them to active members here first, and with whatever is left offer them to other people, through the shop or ebay, and ask that they actually use it and give feedback to help out.  It may work, it may not.  Worth a shot either way, and it might help bring in a little more money.

I wonder if any of the early units will have the US 4G module.  I don't know what percentage of us there are here that want one, so it may not be worth it.

 

[rygD]

Back when they first made the Pandora, it was pretty murky who pre-production models should go to.  With the Pyra it should be pretty straight forward.  

The crew that is currently active in development should be the top of the list.  Then go through the Pandora repo and find the most prolific programmers and porters.  Then if there are a few more available, find the most prolific reviewers/raters of other's work.  Those people should be offered a numbered early unit at expected retail price - with a signed agreement that they cannot resell the device for a period of 180 days, but are allowed to return it for a full refund within that time period.  That kind of agreement would help mitigate risks for both ED's company and the content creators.

Now, IF there are a few units beyond what is needed for the above types, THEN auction a few off to help offset costs.  I don't think anyone has advocated ONLY auctioning off early units.

Of course, I would also like to see the first 100 true production units be reserved for auction (and stated as such to the pre-order audience).
Units 101+ should be pre-order eligible.  This lets DragonBox capitalize on that initial product madness.  If those first 100 units can average $1000+ per unit, ED should capitalize on that for a couple of weeks then ship the first 500+ pre-order units the following week.

This is a much better idea for where they should go than what I previously said.  I don't know if there are many people that are interested and have that kind of money.  100 seems like a lot, however worst case seems to be they sell at the normal preorder price.  Might cut into preorder sales a little if people hold off thinking they might get one through an auction quicker.  I still think it would be helpful if some of the earliest pre-production units are carried around and "abused" a little bit (just thinking about Pandora case issues again).



 

 

[Creature XL]

Back when they first made the Pandora, it was pretty murky who pre-production models should go to.  With the Pyra it should be pretty straight forward.  

The crew that is currently active in development should be the top of the list.  Then go through the Pandora repo and find the most prolific programmers and porters.  Then if there are a few more available, find the most prolific reviewers/raters of other's work.  Those people should be offered a numbered early unit at expected retail price - with a signed agreement that they cannot resell the device for a period of 180 days, but are allowed to return it for a full refund within that time period.  That kind of agreement would help mitigate risks for both ED's company and the content creators.

Now, IF there are a few units beyond what is needed for the above types, THEN auction a few off to help offset costs.  I don't think anyone has advocated ONLY auctioning off early units.

Of course, I would also like to see the first 100 true production units be reserved for auction (and stated as such to the pre-order audience).
Units 101+ should be pre-order eligible.  This lets DragonBox capitalize on that initial product madness.  If those first 100 units can average $1000+ per unit, ED should capitalize on that for a couple of weeks then ship the first 500+ pre-order units the following week.

Note, in this plan random Pandora users and new people without a proven porting/programming track record are excluded from getting the early units.  I would not meet any of the criteria for early units.  I do plan to pre-order just as soon as ED and Link are set up to take the order, but will likely not participate in the auctions.

There is a method to this, though.  Frankly the software and drivers should be expected to be 'very young' at that stage.  In that barely into beta hardware phase, it's best to have people who know and understand the implications of this.  What would be horrid is if some national review site got their mitts on an early pre-production unit and blasted it before the main release units could even be made and the software matured enough for general consumption.

The selected coders /porters  should of course make some sort of a commitment, don't they? If they have no time or motivation they should be honest and pass on the offer.
Further it should be mentioned that tthe first Pandoras should have been  ordered by devs back then. However, that was not the case.

 

[fantomid]

Pyra approaching ...

 

[BaDToaD]

Time to start saving my pennies. Looks like I came back just as things are starting to really pick up.

Just one question ED. I know you're trying to make the Pyra's audio as good or better than the Pandora but on paper specs can be deceiving. Have you done a like for like listening test between the Pyra and the Pandora with some quality headphones and how did it compare. I tend to trust my ears rather than specs.

As you may remember I am a bit of an audio nut being the author of the first Pandora sound review four years ago. Although the sound isn't a deal breaker for me I'd love the Pyra's sound to be of the same, or dare I hope, better audiophile quality than the Pandora.

 

[Grench]

Time to start saving my pennies. Looks like I came back just as things are starting to really pick up.

Just one question ED. I know you're trying to make the Pyra's audio as good or better than the Pandora but on paper specs can be deceiving. Have you done a like for like listening test between the Pyra and the Pandora with some quality headphones and how did it compare. I tend to trust my ears rather than specs.

As you may remember I am a bit of an audio nut being the author of the first Pandora sound review four years ago. Although the sound isn't a deal breaker for me I'd love the Pyra's sound to be of the same, or dare I hope, better audiophile quality than the Pandora.

I remember your review of the Pandora's audio - thank you for that.

The last message I saw from the team on the audio port audio question was that they had left room on the motherboard for a discrete DAC and amplifier (as in the Pandora) but thought the spec on the native DAC and amplifier were possibly as good or better than the Pandora's Burr Brown DAC and discrete amplifier.  I seem to recall that they were going to do some testing on it.

Clearly you should find out when they are doing that testing and plan a vacation to Germany to assist.
 

 

[Michoko]

Hi ED did you finally solve the tearing issue you had with the rotator chip some time ago?

 

[CFWhitman]

It's pretty clear that as many of the pre-production units as possible should go toward developers. I have pre-ordered a hobbyist computer system and ended up fiddling with it a little, but it basically ending up collecting dust for the first two months I had it before the software was useful enough for me to start using it regularly. The appeal to having an early model is more psychological than practical. Of course, the Pyra will most likely be in a fairly usable state fairly quickly because of the general availability of Debian packages once the distro is really working well, even before more Pyra specific software becomes available. However, the longer after pre-production you have to wait before getting one, the more useful it will be.

 

[BaDToaD]

I remember your review of the Pandora's audio - thank you for that.

The last message I saw from the team on the audio port audio question was that they had left room on the motherboard for a discrete DAC and amplifier (as in the Pandora) but thought the spec on the native DAC and amplifier were possibly as good or better than the Pandora's Burr Brown DAC and discrete amplifier.  I seem to recall that they were going to do some testing on it.

Clearly you should find out when they are doing that testing and plan a vacation to Germany to assist.

Hey Grench didn't recognise you with that avatar. Would love to test the audio but as a full time carer for a relative with an Learning Disability I no longer have the option of getting out and about much. I'm sure the Pyra audio will be at worst, very good and if it isn't better than the Pandora I can still use my old CC pandy for audio. Battery life is still awesome on the old girl.

 

[TeDaDeS]

I'm not in a rush, so I'm happy to wait for the first consumer model release (hoping that it will not be years later like the oculus rift).

 

[Grench]

I remember your review of the Pandora's audio - thank you for that.The last message I saw from the team on the audio port audio question was that they had left room on the motherboard for a discrete DAC and amplifier (as in the Pandora) but thought the spec on the native DAC and amplifier were possibly as good or better than the Pandora's Burr Brown DAC and discrete amplifier.  I seem to recall that they were going to do some testing on it.Clearly you should find out when they are doing that testing and plan a vacation to Germany to assist.

Hey Grench didn't recognise you with that avatar. Would love to test the audio but as a full time carer for a relative with an Learning Disability I no longer have the option of getting out and about much. I'm sure the Pyra audio will be at worst, very good and if it isn't better than the Pandora I can still use my old CC pandy for audio. Battery life is still awesome on the old girl.

My current avatar is blatantly stolen from a picture ED posted of the Pyra keyboard, auto-cropped by the board's avatar engine.  I thought the pink background nub holes anthropomorphized nicely into eyes.  The power button gives it a big zit on the forehead, but such is life.  I'll replace it some day when ED tells me to stop using the picture he rendered or something else strikes me as interesting.  I should probably ask ED's permission for use - but since I'm using it on his boards only...  if my use was upsetting to him I'm pretty sure he'd let me know.