Pandora's Design

[Megagun]

Also consider: Buttons can be MAPPED TO KEYS. For use by xterm, you have plenty of buttons to map to tab, ctrl, esc, pgup/down etc.

But that would be bad.
Why? Because people are used to a certain keyboard layout and certain buttons being somewhere. It would be severely irritating indeed if you had to keep thinking where the tab key was ("Tab.. eehh.. right, A.") and also consider the fact that different games/apps might bind the tab key differently.

It took me at least two weeks to get used to my FN key being to the left of CTRL, rather than to the right of it. Think how many weeks it'd take for you to get adjusted (if at all!) to weird buttonmaps...

 

[Mr B]

I'm pretty impressed that a lot of people on this forum are able to make intelligent comments. Those few who criticise and demand changes based on their pet issue and personal use-case are not to be taken seriously.

Real designers have to consider and balance a lot of issues against each other.
Then, no comments need to be made about your request for raised keyboard buttons. Actually, you just took away every reason for anyone to write out there opinion, and that right after you made yours public. I can almost hear things like "put your money where your mouth is" or "live as you learn."

Who gets to decide what is, and isn't a proper suggestion, in your mind?
B!

 

[Exophase]

DaveC's old design isn't bad of course but..

1) It would tip-over if set on a surface.

Being able to play on a surface is only minimally important. Stands can be used for this if necessary.

2) Controls on the side of the screen means larger device, which impairs pocketability.

From what I've seen the people behind this say so far they won't tolerate a device that isn't as small as absolutely possible, but I personally think that being 10% or so wider wouldn't hurt it that much more. At the very least it's a worthwhile compromise given that without it you will always have the problem with the touchscreen being in the wrong place for touching.

3) Two piece design adds to cost of manufacturing.

That sounds reasonable, but how much? Wouldn't it make less assembly required (two distinct pieces)?

4) If carried without keyboard, it has no screen protection. If carried with keyboard, the keyboard dangles down while you are holding it and playing games. To prevent that you have to detach keyboard and place it somewhere. This is more awkward.

I think you misunderstood the renders. When in "gaming mode" the keyboard is still plugged in, it's just turned around so it flips over the back. I'm figuring you'd want the battery in the keyboard component, and probably some ports, so you really couldn't go without it.

The pros are pretty obvious:

- Touchscreen is in the "right" place
- Analogs can be positioned more underneath the dpad/buttons. Even though we've been assured that the current placement is fine I'm sure a lot of us aren't convinced.
- Much more space available for keys on the keyboard (or bigger keys).
- In "gaming mode" it fits the form factor everyone's used to.
- Vertical play is feasible

I know the unit being too "top heavy" is the major concern but it seems to me that with the high capacity battery that the machine is going for most of the weight will be there anyway. If you keep that on the bottom underneath the keyboard (like it is now) then would it be so much of a big deal to have the board on the top underneath the LCD?

The design is a lot like the swivel design, but the plugging/unplugging (although a little crude) seems like it'd be cheaper to implement and more reliable of the long term.

 

[Yrx]

I'm pretty impressed that a lot of people on this forum are able to make intelligent comments. Those few who criticise and demand changes based on their pet issue and personal use-case are not to be taken seriously.

Real designers have to consider and balance a lot of issues against each other.
Then, no comments need to be made about your request for raised keyboard buttons. Actually, you just took away every reason for anyone to write out there opinion, and that right after you made yours public. I can almost hear things like "put your money where your mouth is" or "live as you learn."

Who gets to decide what is, and isn't a proper suggestion, in your mind?
B!

That's the most retarded logic I've ever heard. lol

He's speaking in terms of overall effectiveness. He's not saying that he wants a raised keyboard for any specific reason, just that it would be more effective. And it would be!

 

[pupnik]

He's speaking in terms of overall effectiveness. He's not saying that he wants a raised keyboard for any specific reason, just that it would be more effective. And it would be!

On the plus side, blackberry style keys would help prevent mistypes.
On the minus side, some people might dislike they way they look.

Can anyone suggest other advantages or disadvantages?

 

[eridium]

QUOTE

The pros are pretty obvious:

- Touchscreen is in the "right" place
- Analogs can be positioned more underneath the dpad/buttons. Even though we've been assured that the current placement is fine I'm sure a lot of us aren't convinced.
- Much more space available for keys on the keyboard (or bigger keys).
- In "gaming mode" it fits the form factor everyone's used to.
- Vertical play is feasible

I know the unit being too "top heavy" is the major concern but it seems to me that with the high capacity battery that the machine is going for most of the weight will be there anyway. If you keep that on the bottom underneath the keyboard (like it is now) then would it be so much of a big deal to have the board on the top underneath the LCD?



I do not see DaveC's design working with the two analogs. There is not much real-estate around the screen to be feasible. Therefore you would have to widen the unit considerably on the sides to fit them in there properly.

QUOTE

The design is a lot like the swivel design, but the plugging/unplugging (although a little crude) seems like it'd be cheaper to implement and more reliable of the long term.



If you have to manufacture multiple modules, I would think that would be more expensive, not cheaper. Also, modular designs tend to be much less reliable, not more. Whenever you have to plug one piece into another you will always have a higher potential of failure along with a high wear factor. And even if you make the connectors as foolproof as possible, there will always be people who find a way to plug that round peg into the square socket and ruin their unit.

I do not see a full redesign happening and personally I like the current prototype renders. Hopefully the developers will post some pictures of actual keyboards they are looking at so we can get a better feel for the design.

Happy Holidays!

 

[Mr B]

That's the most retarded logic I've ever heard.
Thanks for calling me a retard.. I'll try not to return the favor.

He's speaking in terms of overall effectiveness. He's not saying that he wants a raised keyboard for any specific reason, just that it would be more effective. And it would be!
Something being more effective, is a specific reason. And, he just said someone shouldn't argue for one, or another specific reason, since this most certainly had already been covered by the designer. Talk about living like teaching.

On the plus side, blackberry style keys would help prevent mistypes.
On the minus side, some people might dislike they way they look.

Can anyone suggest other advantages or disadvantages?
Hopefully the key will be made from a rubber / silicone compound, as a complete cover, to eliminate dirt and similar from getting in. Just like any remote controller. Softer keys like these might have a negative impact on the Blackberry type keys. I don't know, haven't seen the Blackberry in person, so i might be tricked by pictures. Otherways i don't have any opinion on the keys in them self, i have a problem with the layout, and number of keys on the keyboard, and where it's located.
B!

 

[atomicthumbs]

Can I change my vote to "love it"?

 

[Exophase]

I do not see DaveC's design working with the two analogs. There is not much real-estate around the screen to be feasible. Therefore you would have to widen the unit considerably on the sides to fit them in there properly.

You're looking at it too literally, we're referring to the form factor, not the specific button placement. The analogs would go underneath the dpad/buttons, the speaker holes would take up much less room (works fine for PSP), there wouldn't be volume buttons on the left side nor those buttons on the top (replaced with dial/slider on the side), and the start/select buttons could be moved underneath the screen (making the unit taller instead of wider). I don't see analogs beneath as being worse than analogs towards the middle.

If you have to manufacture multiple modules, I would think that would be more expensive, not cheaper.

EvilDragon said a worthwhile swivel would cost over 50 euros. I don't know how accurate this is but there's no way this design should cost that much in parts.

Also, modular designs tend to be much less reliable, not more. Whenever you have to plug one piece into another you will always have a higher potential of failure along with a high wear factor.

I'm not really convinced.

And even if you make the connectors as foolproof as possible, there will always be people who find a way to plug that round peg into the square socket and ruin their unit.

Now that's just silly, the tiny percentage of people who are dumb enough to try shoving something ELSE into those connectors and with enough persistence to actually damage the thing deserve the results.

I do not see a full redesign happening and personally I like the current prototype renders. Hopefully the developers will post some pictures of actual keyboards they are looking at so we can get a better feel for the design.

Although you like it I can pretty much guarantee you that DaveC's design would be more popular, which is a significant issue because a good number of people don't like the current design at all, or just think it's alright.

 

[quartercast]

The design is a lot like the swivel design, but the plugging/unplugging (although a little crude) seems like it'd be cheaper to implement and more reliable of the long term.

For some reason a swivel-type hinge like on tablet pc's totally evaded my thinking. That would be a nice solution actually as it would keep the two components together, negating wear-and-tear issues of the modular docking design.

@eridium: I'm sure the gaming controls and speakers on DaveC's old design could be rearranged to make room for two analog nubs. At present, they're quite well spaced out.

I really do hope we see a redesigned Pandora, with the help of the intelligent souls of the gp32x community.

 

[Mr B]

Also, modular designs tend to be much less reliable, not more. Whenever you have to plug one piece into another you will always have a higher potential of failure along with a high wear factor.

I'm not really convinced.I think he has a point. Not as in "high" being a fatal flaw, just that connectors, and support have to be chosen so that it becomes another of those "none issues."

And even if you make the connectors as foolproof as possible, there will always be people who find a way to plug that round peg into the square socket and ruin their unit.

Now that's just silly, the tiny percentage of people who are dumb enough to try shoving something ELSE into those connectors and with enough persistence to actually damage the thing deserve the results.If i don't remember wrong, pretty much every warranty card states that improper use voids warranty. Car has to be taken to make sure you cant fry the battery pack, and make it explode, but otherways i think its hard to be held accountable for damages to property, or persons caused by this device... Knowing it will sell in the US... It has a limiter to max speaker, and headset outputs, right? If the hardware is limited to keep below what ever point is deemed proper, big headsets might not reach sound levels needed to be useful, while in ear headsets might still be able to reduce hearing to a faint "weeeeeee" so I'm just pointing it out to see if we get any response.
B!

 

[Turnip]

What happend to it having a part metal case like craig said in the big thread?

It looks too much like a DS in my opinion. I think having a metal outer shell would make it look much, much better.

 

[pupnik]

Although you like it I can pretty much guarantee you that DaveC's design would be more popular, which is a significant issue because a good number of people don't like the current design at all, or just think it's alright.

Well, nobody is going to manufacture it, but... you could post the DaveC renders in a poll thread with the same poll answers as the Pandora design poll ...

 

[kingbuzzo]

kingbuzzo: That's not a feasible middle ground. As far as I know (I'm not looking directly at the poll right now), there are only 11 people that DON'T want a keyboard, and the wording on there was left pretty open to say that it's nice but it's unnecessary. And if you made it slide-out, you would basically be screwing over both parties. It would be a pain in the butt to hold if you want to play a game that uses the keyboard, and the keyboard would still be there anyways with different design quibbles.

well, then perhaps it is better to simply put that, the use of keyboard WITH the controls for games (or any apps for that matter) has never been something of great concern for the majority and shows no sign of becoming one? Or that the existence of the both with the least amount of compromise between the two is optimal to most?

And I fail to see how this will "screw over" these "parties".

first off, who are the parties you are speaking of?

Party 1: those wanting to play games that require the keyboard

Party 2: those not concerned with the wants of party 2 (please correct me if this is not what you mean)

And how will they be screwed over?

screwed party 1: KB games are difficult and uncomfortable to play.

Who's to say that? What are you basing this on? It most certainly could be, but it could not as well. I'm afraid you'll need to clarify more and use some examples before this ground can be taken seriously. Haven't there been rather successful devices that feature slide out keyboards?

screwed party 2: let me quote "the keyboard would still be there anyways with different design quibbles"
I think we can all agree that it isn't the existence of the keyboard that has us questioning the hardware design, but how it may compromise the overall usability. And yes, there will be different design quibles. But that fact has no warrant to your claim. Just because we will find more things to discuss doesn't mean we should abandon the debate and go along silently with the idea of a few "noble dudes".

is this all fair?

 

[Wonderbutt]

I hope that the actual device will be a bit more elegant than the render. Functionally, the design is pretty good. I think that the whole device is a bit too blocky though - it needs some more curves. It looks a bit too square, and reminds me of a not-so-elegant single-screened DS.

Yuck.
The problem with American design concept is that organic is supposed to look good in tech devices.
It almost never has. The GP32 is ass-ugly.girls and the roads.
Apple got away with it somewhat in the iLamp iMac.
Stay geometric and linear with this one.
Save the curves for the girls.

 

[Exophase]

I hope that the actual device will be a bit more elegant than the render. Functionally, the design is pretty good. I think that the whole device is a bit too blocky though - it needs some more curves. It looks a bit too square, and reminds me of a not-so-elegant single-screened DS.

Yuck.
The problem with American design concept is that organic is supposed to look good in tech devices.
It almost never has. The GP32 is ass-ugly.girls and the roads.
Apple got away with it somewhat in the iLamp iMac.
Stay geometric and linear with this one.
Save the curves for the girls.


I think gp32_console looks tons better than :gp2x don't you?

Sorry, you're in the minority here.

 

[DaveC]

I do not see DaveC's design working with the two analogs. There is not much real-estate around the screen to be feasible. Therefore you would have to widen the unit considerably on the sides to fit them in there properly.

Well you need to know the history of that render. First, when it was made there were no analogs, that came much later. Second When that was made the screen was 4:3, not widescreen. This would give plenty of room for controls because of the screen aspect. Now that those things have changed this render is only good for laughs

Second curvy designs are not very good for getting the smallest package with the most features. Adding curves would make the keyboard smaller and create less room for internal components which are rectangular such as keys, LCD, battery. This thing can be made like ED's render and look fine with a few tweaks. There are alot of more geometric things out that look fine. Just look at anything Apple and everyone that copies from them (*Cough Nintendo cough*) My opinion is that geometric looks cleaner in tech gadgets than bulbous curvy gadgets that add curves just to add curves.

 

[MWeston]

Touch screen on top seems to work fine for these folks:

http://aving.net/usa/news/default.asp?mode...mp;mn_name=news

 

[Mr B]

Yeah, that seams to work great for gaming... No hands near the controls, and the device folded flat. Exactly the way we want to navigate the web, or play Amiga. You know what? Nvm.
B!

 

[MWeston]

haha, I knew you would be the first to reply

This thing is a dictionary, not a games machine. I was just showing the successful use of a touch screen in the top half of a clam shell design.

P.S. I'm not going to argue with you as your mind is very much made up and that's okay. If it's all the same to you, would you be so kind as to not pollute each topic with the same bitter argument? We get it, no sale for Mr. B. Moving on...