Pandora Price Increase!

[benji_stein]

@Chaser interesting posts there, thanks. I'm trying to avoid that forum for a while, but it's reassuring to know I'm not the only one who feels that way about it.

Bloody hell. Can't you just be quiet? You know that you're asking someone who is working way too much already?!? By the way for _your_ pandora?!?

Right now, it seems like Craig is more interested in the ICP.

Why did you go about this Premium stuff without fully informing the people who it effected the most?

It was announced in the offical boards. The effect for YOU is that you will get your pandora faster.

The boards are not a place for official announcements. Not everyone follows them. For something of this magnitude, I think a newsletter would have been good, or at least an official blog post. There's been a blog post since, but still no mention of it.

Why did you send new orders for premium units first batch stickers instead of the second batch one's?

Because they wanted to make you angry, I am sure. But after all, they ARE from the first batch. And most premium orders will be updates, I think.

Sorry, no. It was in his original post about it, here.

The specific bit you're looking for is:

You will still get your unit for below cost price, and due to the extra labour, faster. The extra units will come from batch2.

They come from batch two, not batch one. So they should not get first batch stickers.
How they can be batch 2 boards, when batch 1 boards aren't complete is beyond me. But that's a separate question, and he's going to say they can, then they should have batch 1 stickers.

Why are you letting people who ask these types of questions get bullied on the boards by other users instead of sorting it out yourselves?

I think he can't do everything. Why are YOU letting poor african children starve?

No, ED can't do anything. But he (or at least Craig) sure knows more answers than we do, and can quell a lot of this with the right ones. A few words won't prevent African children from starving...

They didn't have second batch stickers, or the custom 7-day stickers yet. The "first batch" was the first 4000 units, but not all were spoken for because several hundred were reserved for RMAs, repairs, etc., so nobody who ordered one of the first 4000 should be bumped out of the first 4000 by the 100 limited premiums, even if they were all new purchases (which they weren't).

That's more reasonable. And I suspect it's largely the case. But then Craig should be up front about it, and sell the units with no sticker, get one in the mail later to put in yourself. Or, since they've been expecting to move into batch two seamlessly "in two months" for far more than two months, they should have gotten the second-batch stickers ready, by now.

It wasn't posted in the official blog because it was supposed to be a special offer for the community, not anyone who just happened across the product website and blog. It was however posted all over the forums, and the link was supposed to be "private" or at least as private as you can get on the internet. This was to make sure that community followers didn't feel jilted, but obviously that didn't quite work 100%. Also, it was limited to 100 units, and not a perpetual "7-day Pandora!".

1) If it was a special offer, maybe. But the decision to do this, and delay all the preordered Pandoras *affects* everyone still in the queue. If they had to do it, that's one thing. But not letting people who don't read the forums about it, even after the fact, is insulting to them.

2) It has never been stated that it was limited to 100 units. It always has qualifiers like "probably" and "not yet at". This is Craig we're talking about, along with is "prepared to say July" (but never did).

Edit: Add reply to laserbeams

 

[laserbeams]

They didn't have second batch stickers, or the custom 7-day stickers yet. The "first batch" was the first 4000 units, but not all were spoken for because several hundred were reserved for RMAs, repairs, etc., so nobody who ordered one of the first 4000 should be bumped out of the first 4000 by the 100 limited premiums, even if they were all new purchases (which they weren't).

That's more reasonable. And I suspect it's largely the case. But then Craig should be up front about it, and sell the units with no sticker, get one in the mail later to put in yourself. Or, since they've been expecting to move into batch two seamlessly "in two months" for far more than two months, they should have gotten the second-batch stickers ready, by now.

Fair enough points, but it would be illegal to ship without the sticker, which contains the information about FCC and CE validation, both required by law. He said he was going to make another run of premium stickers which could be added by the purchaser. That may have been an offhand comment, but it's something he should do.

 

[gruso]

answers answers answers

 

[quartercast]

 

[EvilDragon]

Well, sorry, but I have no idea what else I could possible reply and what answers you are missing...

Why did you go about this Premium stuff without fully informing the people who it effected the most?

Well, that question has already been answered by me already:
I didn't know about it earlier than any of you here, so the only way to get an answer is by asking Craig. He's not anymore on these boards though.
He left because there was major whining and bitching going on here - and apparently, it still happens sometimes, which makes me sad.

Why did you send new orders for premium units first batch stickers instead of the second batch one's?

Because Batch 2 stickers are not produced yet and the planned stickers would've taken 20 days (which was too long).
Craig asked me to order them, unfortunately before asking me how long it would take.

We've got 4200 Batch 1 stickers by the way, so there's more than enough even for the Premium units.

Why are you letting people who ask these types of questions get bullied on the boards by other users instead of sorting it out yourselves?

Erm... I am letting them what...?
This is a community board, not the official boards. Unless people start to act against the rules, there's no reason to make them shut up or delete posts.
There are multiple moderators here at the boards, and it seems no one has seen a reason to warn anyone here yet.
I am no god here.

There has to be a reason why one gets bullied. The community doesn't bully without a reason.
So if you think you are being bullied by a majority here, it seems they don't agree with what you're doing here.
I haven't seen any personal insults here, most people are just asking you to stop.

Why wont you just apologies to the people who were shunned, seeing as though it's obvious Craig screwed up?

Because I am not responsible for anything Craig does. Craig is Craig and I am me.
I said I didn't like the idea myself, but he sure had his reasons. He never did anything without a reason.
Besides, YOU think he screwed it up, whereas the majority of the users here doesn't seem to agree with that.
If the majority thinks it was fine... I wonder what he should apologize for?

Well, as said, I am not Craig, I wasn't too happy with that myself, but if you want an apologize, you should go and ask Craig.

How many more people has Craig actually taken on with the money made from Premium units?

I am sitting here in Germany, whereas Craig is in UK. I have no idea, I am not involved in Craigs company.
So I'm afraid you need to ask Craig.

Being able to order a Pandora and receive it in 7 days was a major milestone. Why wasn't it on the official blog?

Because this is a special offer, Craig wanted to keep the orders low. The intention was to get a little more money to hire more people, not to sell as many units as possible for a higher price and screw the community over.

 

[Iorgy77]

He left because there was major whining and bitching going on here - and apparently, it still happens sometimes, which makes me sad.

He left because he spent more time trolling the GPH threads than making pandoras. He then had one of his troll posts edited and threw a childish tantrum and left to the new forum where he could control anybody who spoke against him or the Pandora project.

 

[gruso]

There were other factors in that disaster too, like Mali going postal on him (with questionable use of mod powers).

 

[Exophase]

Either way, Craig told me he's still banned. So unless he's mistaken about that it doesn't really matter why he's not here as much as that he can't be.

 

[Schnatterplatsch]

He left because there was major whining and bitching going on here - and apparently, it still happens sometimes, which makes me sad.

He left because he spent more time trolling the GPH threads than making pandoras. He then had one of his troll posts edited and threw a childish tantrum and left to the new forum where he could control anybody who spoke against him or the Pandora project.

Beside the fact that he is a normal user over there and I couldn't see a try of him to control anybody so far... yes.

 

[Trip]

He left because there was major whining and bitching going on here - and apparently, it still happens sometimes, which makes me sad.

As far as I'm aware he left of his own accord and deleted his account himself. There is nothing at all stopping the guy from still reading this forum or from creating a new account on it. I'm not bitching or moaning at all, just looking for answers to some very simple questions that you should be able to answer being one of the two most active Pandora devs.

Because Batch 2 stickers are not produced yet and the planned stickers would've taken 20 days (which was too long).
Craig asked me to order them, unfortunately before asking me how long it would take.

We've got 4200 Batch 1 stickers by the way, so there's more than enough even for the Premium units.

But batch one was supposed to be special units for the people who have supported you the longest and the new premium units were supposed to be from batch 2 not batch 1. A lot of people bought into batch 1 with the knowledge that they were getting one out of a limited number of units which would increase in how much it was worth over a period of time. You do realise that now you are creating more batch 1 units that doesn't mean much any more, don't you?

Erm... I am letting them what...?
This is a community board, not the official boards. Unless people start to act against the rules, there's no reason to make them shut up or delete posts.
There are multiple moderators here at the boards, and it seems no one has seen a reason to warn anyone here yet.
I am no god here.

There has to be a reason why one gets bullied. The community doesn't bully without a reason.
So if you think you are being bullied by a majority here, it seems they don't agree with what you're doing here.
I haven't seen any personal insults here, most people are just asking you to stop.

Actually the premium Pandoras only effect certain people in a negative way as I've already explained on this thread, so the majority of users wont see a problem with it. In fact they will gain most from the new units. That doesn't mean that it should be ignored.

People are bullying because they are afraid that any instability will make this project fail. For every one person asking a simple question, there has been 3 or 4 calling them a troll. You only need to read through this thread to understand that.

Just for the record someone has been reported on this thread for personal insults and making sh*t up, It's just been done privately to keep the thread clear. He's also the same person that was warned for trolling and personal insults on one of the other threads about the same thing.

Because I am not responsible for anything Craig does. Craig is Craig and I am me.
I said I didn't like the idea myself, but he sure had his reasons. He never did anything without a reason.
Besides, YOU think he screwed it up, whereas the majority of the users here doesn't seem to agree with that.
If the majority thinks it was fine... I wonder what he should apologize for?

Well, as said, I am not Craig, I wasn't too happy with that myself, but if you want an apologize, you should go and ask Craig.

Again..

And how many of those people are between 950-1500 in Craig's queue and the next lot of ED's?

Why would it bother someone who has their Pandora already? Why would it bother someone who has the money to upgrade and get their Pandora early? Why would it bother someone who's at the end of batch 2 and would get their Pandora quite a few months before they would have done?
Those aren't the people that this effects in a negative way.

You felt it was right to repost what Craig had told you as fact you and said that you agreed with it before. How can you now try to distance yourself and say that it's Craig's fault and I should take it up with him?

I am sitting here in Germany, whereas Craig is in UK. I have no idea, I am not involved in Craigs company.
So I'm afraid you need to ask Craig.

Your supposed to be one of the main figures in the OpenPandora company. How can you not know what's going on in regards to production. Don't you guys talk about the important stuff at all?

Because this is a special offer, Craig wanted to keep the orders low. The intention was to get a little more money to hire more people, not to sell as many units as possible for a higher price and screw the community over.

If it was a special offer for the community, it would have had an official post on this forum as well as on the official one wouldn't it?

Thanks for trying to answer my questions ED. I don't want to make your job harder or anything but I feel that these questions should be answered and I trust you more to answer them truthfully than I do Craig.

 

[Trip]

Beside the fact that he is a normal user over there and I couldn't see a try of him to control anybody so far... yes.

<_< He's a user with the login details of the forum and database. That doesn't make him normal in my book.

 

[EvilDragon]

He left because there was major whining and bitching going on here - and apparently, it still happens sometimes, which makes me sad.

As far as I'm aware he left of his own accord and deleted his account himself. There is nothing at all stopping the guy from still reading this forum or from creating a new account on it. I'm not bitching or moaning at all, just looking for answers to some very simple questions that you should be able to answer being one of the two most active Pandora devs.

As said, I already answered everything I could answer to you, what do you expect from me?

Because Batch 2 stickers are not produced yet and the planned stickers would've taken 20 days (which was too long).
Craig asked me to order them, unfortunately before asking me how long it would take.
We've got 4200 Batch 1 stickers by the way, so there's more than enough even for the Premium units.

But batch one was supposed to be special units for the people who have supported you the longest and the new premium units were supposed to be from batch 2 not batch 1. A lot of people bought into batch 1 with the knowledge that they were getting one out of a limited number of units which would increase in how much it was worth over a period of time. You do realise that now you are creating more batch 1 units that doesn't mean much any more, don't you?

Within the last two years, at least 200 or 300 of those orders had been cancelled.
And we should not sell these units to new interested people because they are not special?

What should we do with them? Put them in a shrine and honor them for the rest of our lifes?

Yes, everything has been planned completely different at the beginning. We were unexperienced and things worked out completely different as we planned.
It was planned to have a first batch pretty fast and then a proper production runs later.
It turns out Batch 2 should go fluent after Batch 1 there, we just order new parts and don't stop the production if possible.

Actually the premium Pandoras only effect certain people in a negative way as I've already explained on this thread, so the majority of users wont see a problem with it. In fact they will gain most from the new units. That doesn't mean that it should be ignored.

Well, but it seems you're the only one of those 3500 preorderers that seem to have a special problem with that.

People are bullying because they are afraid that any instability will make this project fail. For every one person asking a simple question, there has been 3 or 4 calling them a troll. You only need to read through this thread to understand that.

I don't think that's it. I think they call you a troll because for every answer you get you start to continue repeating the same things over and over again, probably until you get the answer YOU want and not the answer I give.

Just for the record someone has been reported on this thread for personal insults and making sh*t up, It's just been done privately to keep the thread clear. He's also the same person that was warned for trolling and personal insults on one of the other threads about the same thing.

Well, I checked the warning logs, and the last official warning was given December 2010.
The only report on this thread has been done by you, and the two comments by moderators have been:

Heavy emotions on both side, but I don't see anything to really be done: it's just difference of opinion, no? Not much to be done still, but I'll keep watch on the thread in case it really starts getting out of hand.

and

Hopefully things have sorted themselves out, Judging by what Tripmonkey_uk has posted and quoted.

We`ll see.

Nothing done.

No editings have been done to this thread, so I don't know what you're talking about, but it seems the other moderators seem to agree that this thread needs to be watched but no harm is done yet.

Well, as said, I am not Craig, I wasn't too happy with that myself, but if you want an apologize, you should go and ask Craig.

Again..

And how many of those people are between 950-1500 in Craig's queue and the next lot of ED's?

I get my share of units regardless from Craigs Premium Pandoras, because I get them from the total numbers of boards delivered.
I finish the building, testing and flashing of these units myself, so it takes quite a while for me to ship them.
I also sell Premium Pandoras - for every user who cancels, I sell a Premium Pandora to keep the balance right on my account.
It won't help anyone if I run out of money as well.
Therefore, I shipped VERY little Premium Pandoras (I think about 12 out of 250!), and Craig also didn't ship that many.

You felt it was right to repost what Craig had told you as fact you and said that you agreed with it before. How can you now try to distance yourself and say that it's Craig's fault and I should take it up with him?

Eh? Maybe I didn't make myself clear with my point of view.
I never said I didn't agree with it.
And I never said it was a FAULT Craig did.
I just said I wasn't too happy with the idea myself (because I'm always at a community point of view, basically ), but if it needs to be done to keep going, then it's the right thing do to.
I also mentioned that I'm one of those guys trying to please all and would never do such business-like things, but without a guy like Craig, who sometimes DOES those things (we had a few of similar decisions during the last years), the whole thing wouldn't have survived. Sometimes, you need someone who does what needs to be done, knowing not everyone will like him.

It seems to me you are the one who keeps TELLING that Craig was at fault, you are fixed to that, regardless what anyone answers here.
If someone else comes and keeps TELLING you that what Craig did was right, then we have to people not moving from their point in an endless discussion without an answer.

For me, it was a decision. Whether it was a fault Craig did or not, is in the eye of the beholder.
For you it is, for other people it isn't.

There are a lot of politicians out there who make decisions I don't agree with, even if I voted for them.
So, what should I do? Send them daily emails they need to apologize for that decision, even they and other people think the decision was good and correct?

If you make decisions, you will always have people who will agree and people who will see it as fault.
That's life.

 

[EvilDragon]

I am sitting here in Germany, whereas Craig is in UK. I have no idea, I am not involved in Craigs company.
So I'm afraid you need to ask Craig.

Your supposed to be one of the main figures in the OpenPandora company. How can you not know what's going on in regards to production. Don't you guys talk about the important stuff at all?

Yes, we talk about the important stuff.
However, whether Craig hires 5, 10 or 20 people with his money, is not important. Important is that the boards get produced and that the units are assembled and shipped.
What company tells you how many people are building your stuff? If you make a contract with a 3rd party company to produce your stuff, they tell you how much it will cost and how long it will take.
I've never seen a company that tells you how many workers they are actually hiring or using to do your stuff.
Have you ever asked Amazon how many people are involved to get your order shipped?

There is no OpenPandora company. Craig owns OpenPandora Ltd. and I own OpenPandora GmbH. Two different companies.
If he decides to hire more people to speed things up, it's not really my concern. I shold be happy to get the units faster. But I have nothing to say to decisions that have to do with his company.

Thanks for trying to answer my questions ED. I don't want to make your job harder or anything but I feel that these questions should be answered and I trust you more to answer them truthfully than I do Craig.

Still, I think everything that can be answered HAS been answered already.

The problem in my opinion is:
You expect different answers from the ones that are given. But each decision has two sides, that's life.

 

[jonjandran]

There has to be a reason why one gets bullied. The community doesn't bully without a reason.
So if you think you are being bullied by a majority here, it seems they don't agree with what you're doing here.
I haven't seen any personal insults here, most people are just asking you to stop.

Exactly. No - one agrees with Monkey- Boy. He is in a world all his own, yet he thinks he is right.

He posts his views in every thread he can. Nobody agrees with him. Yet he still thinks he is right.

Definition of insanity :

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

Ah the joy of the Internet. In real life if a person acted like this, they would have been punched in the face so much, they would have stopped by now.

 

[Trip]

Within the last two years, at least 200 or 300 of those orders had been cancelled.
And we should not sell these units to new interested people because they are not special?

What should we do with them? Put them in a shrine and honor them for the rest of our lifes?

Really? I thought that once a user had cancelled that everyone else was moved down the list??

Well, but it seems you're the only one of those 3500 preorderers that seem to have a special problem with that.

That's just plain bullsh*t.
There's more than 2 people on this thread alone who agree that it wasn't the best thing to do. Do you not read through a thread properly before posting? What about all the comments on the blog too?

Well, I checked the warning logs, and the last official warning was given December 2010.

Yeah sorry it was on the other forum, my bad!

They call me a troll because I ask questions and then argue with the answers when they don't make sense. Give me an answer that makes sense and I'll shut the hell up. You really think I want to spend my time arguing on the Internet with someone I've never even met?

You felt it was right to repost what Craig had told you as fact you and said that you agreed with it before. How can you now try to distance yourself and say that it's Craig's fault and I should take it up with him?

Eh? Maybe I didn't make myself clear with my point of view.
I never said I didn't agree with it.
And I never said it was a FAULT Craig did.
I just said I wasn't too happy with the idea myself (because I'm always at a community point of view, basically ), but if it needs to be done to keep going, then it's the right thing do to.
I also mentioned that I'm one of those guys trying to please all and would never do such business-like things, but without a guy like Craig, who sometimes DOES those things (we had a few of similar decisions during the last years), the whole thing wouldn't have survived. Sometimes, you need someone who does what needs to be done, knowing not everyone will like him.

It seems to me you are the one who keeps TELLING that Craig was at fault, you are fixed to that, regardless what anyone answers here.
If someone else comes and keeps TELLING you that what Craig did was right, then we have to people not moving from their point in an endless discussion without an answer.

For me, it was a decision. Whether it was a fault Craig did or not, is in the eye of the beholder.
For you it is, for other people it isn't.

There are a lot of politicians out there who make decisions I don't agree with, even if I voted for them.
So, what should I do? Send them daily emails they need to apologize for that decision, even they and other people think the decision was good and correct?

If you make decisions, you will always have people who will agree and people who will see it as fault.
That's life.

Actually I keep saying that Craig was at fault because what happened broke the law and was illegal. If it wasn't illegal I might agree with you, but it was. No matter how you try and spin that it was wrong.

Ever heard the saying that "The ends don't justify the means"?. How can you say that something is best for the community by hurting that very community?

EDIT: Messed up the formatting.

 

[Trip]

What company tells you how many people are building your stuff? If you make a contract with a 3rd party company to produce your stuff, they tell you how much it will cost and how long it will take.
I've never seen a company that tells you how many workers they are actually hiring or using to do your stuff.
Have you ever asked Amazon how many people are involved to get your order shipped?

What a load of rubbish.

Amazon haven't had peoples pre-order money for over 2 years have they? Amazon haven't broken the law, told people that it was for their own benefit because they are using the money to hire more people. You don't think people have a right to know what's happened to the money that has been made this way?

 

[Twiitcher]

Yes you DO suck at explaining stuff...(YOU said it, I'm just agreeing) - perhaps you should just stop trying.... At this point you're messages are pure comedy and just an exercise in bad logic, misdirection, and a total refusal to acknowledge any explanations validity unless it concurs with your skewed perspective.

Just sayin
Twiitcher

 

[Schnatterplatsch]

Ridiculous, just ridiculous.

 

[EvilDragon]

Within the last two years, at least 200 or 300 of those orders had been cancelled.
And we should not sell these units to new interested people because they are not special?

What should we do with them? Put them in a shrine and honor them for the rest of our lifes?

Really? I thought that once a user had cancelled that everyone else was moved down the list??

Yes, and then second batchers would get first batch units as well, despite not having waited two years.

Besides, 7 out of 10 premium units (at least in my shop) where first batch preorderers who upgraded, so they already waited but decided to put in a little extra money to help us and get their unit a tad faster...

Well, but it seems you're the only one of those 3500 preorderers that seem to have a special problem with that.

That's just plain bullsh*t.
There's more than 2 people on this thread alone who agree that it wasn't the best thing to do. Do you not read through a thread properly before posting? What about all the comments on the blog too?

So, how much % of the full amount of preorderers is that? As a lot of first-batch preorderers upgraded, they seem to want to support us.

Should we always apology to everyone?
Should I apology to the people who said I shouldn't even bother to reply to your posts but rather do something useful like working on assembling units or work on the OS because they think I'm wasting precious time?

They call me a troll because I ask questions and then argue with the answers when they don't make sense. Give me an answer that makes sense and I'll shut the hell up. You really think I want to spend my time arguing on the Internet with someone I've never even met?

Well, to be honest, in my opinion, all my answers made sense. I've asked you more than once WHAT EXACTLY you want to hear from me, and so far, you haven't been able to tell me.
Ask the question to which exactly you want an answer and I will give it as good as I can. But stop moving around in circles, please.

Actually I keep saying that Craig was at fault because what happened broke the law and was illegal. If it wasn't illegal I might agree with you, but it was. No matter how you try and spin that it was wrong.

Ever heard the saying that "The ends don't justify the means"?. How can you say that something is best for the community by hurting that very community?

So, let me sum up:
For everyone who backs off and gets the money back, the preorder queue should move forward by one person.
If too many cancel because it takes too long, the money is lost, the company goes bust, and the remaining of the waiting and supporting community will neither get their money back nor a Pandora.

That's actually what you want?
Don't forget that there's not much money on our bank accounts - it's been used to pay the parts (as said from the very beginning), and you can't simply give the parts back for a user who cancels...

With the Premium Units, more people had been hired which took care of speeding up assembly, sorting out bad units, etc. and by selling another Premium unit for everyone who backs off, it is assured that the company will not run out of money and production and delivery continues, as well as the users who cancel will get their money back.

Yes, legally, the latter one might not be 100% okay, but I'm not sure if 2000 of the guys who also paid and preordered would agree with you getting nothing instead when too many decide to cancel.

So Craig might be at a legal fault, but I would not say it's a fault to the whole project.

What company tells you how many people are building your stuff? If you make a contract with a 3rd party company to produce your stuff, they tell you how much it will cost and how long it will take.
I've never seen a company that tells you how many workers they are actually hiring or using to do your stuff.
Have you ever asked Amazon how many people are involved to get your order shipped?

What a load of rubbish.
Amazon haven't had peoples pre-order money for over 2 years have they? Amazon haven't broken the law, told people that it was for their own benefit because they are using the money to hire more people. You don't think people have a right to know what's happened to the money that has been made this way?

You're twisting my words around again.
I never said YOU shouldn't know and ask how many people Craig hired.
I said I don't know that and have no real reason to ask Craig.

If you want to know that and preordered from Craig, you need to ask him and his company, not me.
I get prebuilt-units (just put together) and do the final assembly for my customers here.
Craigs company does the building for his customers, and why should I care how many people he hired?

While we shared in paying for parts and population, etc., we are still two different companies, and if you want to know specifics about Craigs company, you need to ask them, not me, as I don't know them.

 

[Trip]

It's common sense??

Eds argument only stands if Craig didn't break the law to start off with. But he did.

EDIT: In reply to Twiitcher and Schnatterplatsch before ED answered.