Pandora Price Increase!

[Esn]

From what I understand he left because

I'll just copy+paste the thing I posted a few months ago... may be a bit controversial, but that's kinda how I saw it.

Basically, long ago, a member named mali speculated that OpenPandora Ltd. wouldn't be able to tell if he did a warranty-voiding hardware mod. Craig got very angry and threatened to cancel his order (this is the origin of the "What's your order number?!" meme). Despite this, mali was eventually made a GP32X moderator. Some months ago, Craig acted like a bit of an ass and was penalized by mali. Craig then added an out-of-context quote from a PM that mali had sent him to his signature. mali edited Craig's signature by adding in the rest of that PM. Craig announced that this was the last straw and he would never post on GP32X again, and set up his own OpenPandora forums on the official site. mali tried to get Craig to come back by sacrificing his position as moderator, but it didn't work. EvilDragon didn't want to have separate "dev" sections on the new forums because he believed that it would just split things up for no good reason, but he was overruled by Craig. Nevertheless, most devs elected to stay on GP32X, and for a while the other dev forums were very little-used. More recently, a few devs have begun to post duplicate threads both here and on the OP forums.

Craig has made it a lot more difficult for people who are trying to keep information for Pandora users and devs in one place, and seemingly for little reason other than a hurt ego.

Anyway, this is neither here nor there, just mentioning it because it came up.

Tripmonkey_uk, I do think you're going in circles a bit, and ED has some merit with his accusation that you persist because you're not getting the answers you want to hear. But then again, I have my Pandora and it's in perfect working order, so I have nothing to complain about (except for missing features like not being able to create alternate keymaps in Xfce, to make playable programs with lazy keymapping - ED, if you're reading this, I made a feature request here... even having a simple txt file to edit would be so nice, though).

 

[torpor]

I've had my two Pandoras since the very first week that Pandoras were being shipped. I was very lucky that I got my pre-order in within seconds of the order site going live, and I was very diligent in following up on these orders - through the banking crisis, through the credit card company problem, the switch to google checkout, and so on. I have been, slowly but surely, developing for the Pandora since that day and while I don't have a massive release list, I do count myself as one of the lucky developers who was able to get the hardware early enough to have made a little difference in what software is out there. So, my opinion is biased, since I've been waiting since the very first seconds all the way until delivery, and I *still* check these boards daily to keep up with the community and see whats going on. And, I see my two Pandoras right in front of me, within reach.

That said, I would definitely like to point out that this is a startup business, with startup problems, and we as customers have to be serious about our relationship with this organization - without us, OPT would not even exist. We, the early adopters, are as much a part of the success - and failure - of this startup, as anyone. So if we decide to start attacking the core aspect of this activity - the management of manufacturing, the persons involved, and so on - well then, we have an effect on the greater activity.

So I think that if you want to see things survive, you have to be supportive of the management decisions that are being made. Craig has his house and entire livelihood on the line - if he screws things up, it all goes down the drain. Imagine losing your house, and your livelihood, and the entire business, by screwing things up so badly that *no delivery* occurs. The fact that Pandoras *are being delivered now*, many per week, really means that in spite of all the problems, the management decisions that were made *were correct*. Certainly, things can be done better - but you know what, the hardware business is cut-throat and very definitely *NOT* something that can just be easily managed - with a set of diverse suppliers and all the problems that come from international business logistics, more often than not, startup hardware companies fail. This one could very well have failed, quite dismally, already. But it hasn't.

And thats really the point. We are getting our Pandoras.

 

[andmaz]

So I think that if you want to see things survive, you have to be supportive of the management decisions that are being made. Craig has his house and entire livelihood on the line - if he screws things up, it all goes down the drain. Imagine losing your house, and your livelihood, and the entire business, by screwing things up so badly that *no delivery* occurs. The fact that Pandoras *are being delivered now*, many per week, really means that in spite of all the problems, the management decisions that were made *were correct*. Certainly, things can be done better - but you know what, the hardware business is cut-throat and very definitely *NOT* something that can just be easily managed - with a set of diverse suppliers and all the problems that come from international business logistics, more often than not, startup hardware companies fail. This one could very well have failed, quite dismally, already. But it hasn't.

And thats really the point. We are getting our Pandoras.

If Craig provided the correct information then many more early adopters would have upgraded to a Premium Pandora - resulting in alot more profit as ever one would be another not sold at a lose.

The Craiginator was always supposed to be sold at around the £200 level but then we got the A8 and more RAM - a keyboard, great display etc etc etc and suddenly it was more than another GP gaming console but the price never changed. Adding all the extra stuff was obviously going to cost more both in parts and putting together. The price increase should have occurred along time ago.

 

[Alec]

The Craiginator was always supposed to be sold at around the £200 level but then we got the A8 and more RAM - a keyboard, great display etc etc etc and suddenly it was more than another GP gaming console but the price never changed. Adding all the extra stuff was obviously going to cost more both in parts and putting together. The price increase should have occurred along time ago.

It's obvious now ... with the benefit of hindsight.

It seems like the hardware fits fine in that price. What was underestimated was all the additional expenses such as shipping RMA'd units back and forth, and the difficulty of assembly.

Also, if the price were higher from the start, much less people would have preordered (at least, it was pretty close to my threshold), and people would have been more likely to cancel. And remember, the OPT always tried to be open to the community, so if they jacked up the price to cover the potential unforeseen expenses, there would have been plenty of accusations from "armchair business enthusiasts" (or whatever that term is) that the OPT are scooping up too much profit at the expense of the people who are trying to help them get off the ground.

I think they did the "right" thing by offering the people who are interested in helping out - on the Pandora boards, which is where it is seen only by those obviously interested in their products - and not notifying those who don't care enough to browse for information on their boards.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

There were other factors in that disaster too, like Mali going postal on him (with questionable use of mod powers).

True and i never did like mali.He would pm a mod over nothing and have people chastised.But hed laugh at questionable material when it suited him.Double standards.The new forums are actually nice and chilled and relaxed.

 

[Trip]

As the conversation did seem to be going round in circles a bit, I took a step back from this for a day or so to calm down and look at it from other points of view.

I still fully believe in what I said to begin with. I think the devs are ignoring the negative impact that this could have on the project and that the situation could have been greatly helped by an official blog post on the subject. Something along the lines of the one that Mark Shuttleworth posted today. If people got that upset about a simple media player is it so hard to understand why people would be pissed off about the Premium units? even if the devs still believe it was the right thing to do.

I will also apologies to Evil Dragon for saying that he was just as bad as Craig. He's not really, but I see him making a lot of excuses these days that he wouldn't have done at the start of this project and worry that he's catching the Craig sense of morality. And for the record; ED's a grown man with free will who lives in another country. There's no way that I could make him stop working and posting to this board when he did. It's crap like this that I find really pathetic <_<

I guess time will tell on how this all impacts the project.
I still believe that the project can flourish if the small problem with the shoulder buttons is sorted out, the units are shipped regularly and the reviews are good enough to bring in new users.

 

[Dunny]

And for the record; ED's a grown man with free will in another country.

He certainly is. I seem to recall bumping into his free will whilst holidaying in Cornwall - here's hoping it goes back home to him soon.

D.

 

[Trip]

Fixed it

 

[Dunny]

Fixed it

Ha! My reply still makes sense

D.

 

[Trip]

Stupid board messed up and quoted instead of changing a post

 

[moxie]

As the conversation did seem to be going round in circles a bit, I took a step back from this for a day or so to calm down and look at it from other points of view.

That is very good. And this, I do not mean in any sarcastic way at all - It is very good.

And for the record; ED's a grown man with free will who lives in another country. There's no way that I could make him stop working and posting to this board when he did. It's crap like this that I find really pathetic <_<

I just want to take small issue with this. ED, being the outward responsible wellgrounded OPT person (in contrast to Craig, who is more of the Mad scientist/Used car salesman/John Cleese kind of personality) has to respond to the kind of things you write here. His role in the communications of the company is to respond, to give reasonable explanations, and to generally assure us all that we are in safe hands. He must do this just as much as he must solder lcd cables - The whole thing will break down if it is lacking either. If he stops commenting in threads like these, we'll get the "Oh, they are hiding, they have stopped listening to the community" accusations out in no time. That is the business part of it.

The personal part I can only assume based on myself, but when I have my existence put as much into a project as this, I cannot leave be a comment where I am accused of "being as bad as Craig" with the connotations you are giving it, or when my commitment to the project or my honesty is challenged. Physically, yes, of course I could elect not to use that keyboard, but mentally, if I am to sleep at night at all or find any sort of joy in the work I do, at least I would have to stand up for my person. If not, I could not continue. I would assume, based on the tone of EDs posts lately, that he feels at least something similar.

This paragraph above is not in my best english, but I hope my point is understandable.

 

[Trip]

Yeah and that's understandable but it's up to ED when he wants to reply; this is a forum and not instant messaging.

People reply to a forum when they have the time. As I was having a conversation with ED, he could have given me a reply 4 or 5 hours later and I wouldn't have held it against him and still have answered him as if he had replied straight away. The only problem that might have arisen before he answered is that people who believe they need to answer for him would probably have intervened and confused the conversation.

That doesn't make it my fault does it?

 

[Schnatterplatsch]

But the thing is, that you somehow "forced" him to answer according to what Moxie said(...and I agree with him):

I just want to take small issue with this. ED, being the outward responsible wellgrounded OPT person (in contrast to Craig, who is more of the Mad scientist/Used car salesman/John Cleese kind of personality) has to respond to the kind of things you write here. His role in the communications of the company is to respond, to give reasonable explanations, and to generally assure us all that we are in safe hands. He must do this just as much as he must solder lcd cables - The whole thing will break down if it is lacking either. If he stops commenting in threads like these, we'll get the "Oh, they are hiding, they have stopped listening to the community" accusations out in no time. That is the business part of it.

That isn't pathetic. ED often, but I think not as often as he should, states, that he is pretty exhausted(just read his last tweets). Facing that fact it would be polite to just let him in peace as much as possible.

 

[Trip]

But the thing is, that you somehow "forced" him to answer according to what Moxie said..

And as I said you can't force someone to respond to you on-line like that. He could have responded the next day if he wanted to, it was his choice.

How come it's ok for ED to respond to positive feedback at any time on this forum; yet, if someone is arguing with him it's classed as stopping him doing his work.??

 

[Alec]

But the thing is, that you somehow "forced" him to answer according to what Moxie said..

And as I said you can't force someone to respond to you on-line like that. He could have responded the next day if he wanted to, it was his choice.

How come it's ok for ED to respond to positive feedback at any time on this forum; yet, if someone is arguing with him it's classed as stopping him doing his work.??

Show me a single reply to positive feedback where he couldn't fit his response in one post...

 

[Trip]

Show me a single reply to positive feedback where he couldn't fit his response in one post...

Are you kidding me? I've seen it loads of times where he has had a multiple reply to a conversation with someone else. Even if the second or 3rd reply was just a smiley face after they'd answered.

Maybe I should have put..
How come it's ok for ED to respond to positive feedback or conversations at any time on this forum; yet, if someone is arguing with him it's classed as stopping him doing his work.??

Heaven forbid I should leave something like that out :rolleyes:

 

[Alec]

Show me a single reply to positive feedback where he couldn't fit his response in one post...

Are you kidding me?

No, I'm serious. I'd like to you to show me some concrete examples.

I'm reluctant to add "or conversations" since the discussion in this thread could constitute as a "conversation", which be contradictory.

 

[Trip]

I'm reluctant to add "or conversations" since the discussion in this thread could constitute as a "conversation", which be contradictory.

That's the whole point. You seem to be arguing from your belief that all positive feedback comes in the form of only one post. Which is obviously wrong.

God, people like you are pathetic if this is the type of stuff you enjoy arguing about <_<

 

[EvilDragon]

First, I'm not visiting these boards each day.
These are community boards, I visit them when I find the time, but usually, I browse the official boards daily.
So you won't see me reply within a few hours every time and sometimes I even miss a post.

Second, there is a difference to the posts you mention.
As you said, sometimes I just reply with a smiley to positive feedback, as that is enough to express the emotion needed here.
Most of my answers are quick replies here.

However, most threads where questions like here are asked (leading to what seems to a neverending amount of more questions), the replies take A LOT longer.
Also, you have to be VERY careful what you say, as everything you write will be used to nail you down to something. Given that I'm not even a native English speaker, this makes stuff WAY more complicated and delicate.

Almost every answer I made here to this thread took about 20 - 30 minutes, whereas quick replies to other threads just take a few seconds.

So yeah, I can understand why most people complain that replying to this or similar threads eats more of my time than replying to some positive feedback.

And no, it's NOT my duty to reply to all questions you might have, especially if these are questions that regard Craig and not me, and especially not in an unofficial community board.

It's also not my job, I'm just doing this as I want to try to help as many users as possible and reply to any questions that arise.
But it's not my job, I don't have any contracts and I don't get any payment for this.

And I doubt that if you've got a problem with what Apple does, and ask questions or want an excuse for that in an unofficial community board, if you will get a reply from one of the Apple managers trying to explain what Steve Jobs has decided any why.

 

[quadomatic]

You'd prefer not to let the other guy cut in and the deli goes bust and you have no sandwich and or no chance of the improved mega sandwich later down the line?

Brilliant