Pandora Price Increase!
- Thread starter 007jaws
- Start date
- Status
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
God Ginrai said:
Nope, because the new unit would be 100% backwards compatible with the old one, and furthermore all software would remain forward compatible as well. It'd just be faster. It's not principally any different than selling pre-binned units, something he's done before. I don't see how there'd be any splitting, just like I don't see how GP2X F200 split that community either (even though it did add separate functionality and compatibility)
Turnip said:
I could think of a few reasons, but where do you get your numbers?
Last edited by a moderator:
DavidBowman
Active Member
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2009
- Messages
- 697
Exophase said:
Hey man, before I continue, I just want to say that I recognize that you know much more about technology than I do, so I'm not arguing, just discussing. I do actually have a degree in economics, so I feel like I can discuss this with a fair amount of confidence. Economies of scale doesn't just take into account the physical materials, but also human resources.
While you're not wrong about the DM3730, despite the cost difference between the chips you still have to factor in the R&D time, the cost of changing the boards with the production company and the cost of the delays to the project, which - if we are to believe what Craig has told us - would be devastating.
Wouldn't such a change be better for the Pandora 2? It's not as though the Pandora is underpowered and incapable of playing games, videos, etc. even if it is outdated. Sure, more power is always better, but as everyone in the world is aware: you're always buying yesterday's technology. That said, our particular "yesterday's technology" is two years old at this point. But we all know why.
Last edited by a moderator:
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
First, Craig told me a few things directly (he can't post here), to be fair it's worth mentioning some of his side on this:
- They can't even get lead times on DM3730, so it's not an option for them with their current distributors.. of course you can't do much about this. Bear in mind that this does go against the reasoning ED said, but that doesn't necessarily mean someone's lying because let's face it, those two aren't always on exactly the same wavelength.
- He told me that buying more manufacturers now WOULD cut costs since there's a time-based overhead for keeping shop open which I suppose is a reasonable omission.
- He wanted to make it clear that his financial situation (and I presume by extension MWeston's financial situation) isn't the same as OP's financial situation. iow, OP isn't broke.. which is good, because if they were you couldn't get refunds. So I have to say I was too quick to agree with Neko on that one.
- MWeston is working on stuff.. some Pandora related, some other-OP-related (like iCP)
I must have not been clear, please allow me to reiterate.. The Pandora boards have already been made compatible with DM3730. The chip was designed to be as close to drop-in compatible as possible so it wasn't a huge modification. Nothing has to be changed, there's no additional cost. OP could put DM3730s in existing boards if they wanted to, providing they were able to obtain them.
It's too modest of an improvement for a Pandora 2. Certainly everyone is "yesterday's technology", but you can't really argue that there's a correlation between just how old something is and how marketable it is.
- They can't even get lead times on DM3730, so it's not an option for them with their current distributors.. of course you can't do much about this. Bear in mind that this does go against the reasoning ED said, but that doesn't necessarily mean someone's lying because let's face it, those two aren't always on exactly the same wavelength.
- He told me that buying more manufacturers now WOULD cut costs since there's a time-based overhead for keeping shop open which I suppose is a reasonable omission.
- He wanted to make it clear that his financial situation (and I presume by extension MWeston's financial situation) isn't the same as OP's financial situation. iow, OP isn't broke.. which is good, because if they were you couldn't get refunds. So I have to say I was too quick to agree with Neko on that one.
- MWeston is working on stuff.. some Pandora related, some other-OP-related (like iCP)
David Bowman said:
I must have not been clear, please allow me to reiterate.. The Pandora boards have already been made compatible with DM3730. The chip was designed to be as close to drop-in compatible as possible so it wasn't a huge modification. Nothing has to be changed, there's no additional cost. OP could put DM3730s in existing boards if they wanted to, providing they were able to obtain them.
David Bowman said:
It's too modest of an improvement for a Pandora 2. Certainly everyone is "yesterday's technology", but you can't really argue that there's a correlation between just how old something is and how marketable it is.
Last edited by a moderator:
God Ginrai
Godmaster
Exophase said:
Wouldn't the things that require a lot of resources split the community between those who can use it and those who can't use it? (because it is not fast enough)
Also, for a system where a large percentage (obviously not all, but substantial) of the appeal is in emulating old consoles. I think a speed increase is a big thing. One of my favorite things about the Pandora is that I can emulate my old N64 classics on it. And I would be very disappointed to know that because I was an early adopter, I missed out on better N64 emulation.
-God Ginrai
Last edited by a moderator:
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
God Ginrai said:
I don't see how that'd "split" anything. There aren't a lot of things that can be used and can't be used in the world of computing performance. There are things that can be used at one performance level on one device and a different performance level on another device. Same goes for people who can overclock higher than you.
What you're describing is just sour grapes. You won't have better N64 emulation no matter what happens, you just don't want other people to have it too. Unfortunately this mentality is probably a legitimate concern.
Last edited by a moderator:
God Ginrai
Godmaster
Exophase said:
You're right, I won't. But that doesn't change the fact that people will feel slighted when a slightly better version of the same product comes out for the same price. Why do you think so many people were pissed when the DS Lite came out?
One of the things that people enjoyed about consoles until recent years were that they were stable and lengthy in their release and use, unlike computers. You got the console and there wasn't some upgraded version that you were missing out on. At most you missed out on getting a different color console. The next upgrade was the next system.
-God Ginrai
Last edited by a moderator:
andyB911
Member
Discussions of whether or not the parts have come down in cost, I suspect miss the point.
How do you define the cost of a Pandora? The parts and manufacturing to make a Pandora almost certainly are less than 350USD. So they are making profit? No.
The problem is the large cost in designing. Whether that is half a million or 300k we don't know. But its pretty substantial. And there is no sign up till now of that being paid back.
In fact, accidentally they have created a Ponzi scheme. These have something of a bad name thanks to Mr Madoff (although you could argue pensions and insurance schemes are also closely related).
What I mean is, they used batch1 pre-order to pay for a substantial amount of the devt. Its probable that batch2 pre-order paid for the manufacture of batch1. So they are in a position where each unit makes a very minor repayment towards the initial costs so getting out of this situation is going to be very hard. If batch3 pre order pays for batch2 and so, at some point you won't have the pre-orders to pay for already purchased units. And bang, out of business.
To his credit, Craig is clearly trying to address this (although as ever has tried to sell it as something different), and there is only a small window where people will pay the premium so wise to try to get out of the situation whilst can. I'm lucky enough to already have my Pandora and want it to succeed (have even bought additional spare parts that don't need as a way to 'help').
No doubt it will leave a bad taste in the mouth for those are in the second half of batch1 and I doubt many of those will trust Craig with their pre-order money again in the future. I think people would give more slack if money hadn't been spent on iControlPad and the tv out had been delivered. That taste in the mouth isn't helped by the feeling that tv cable money (and some of the batch1/2 cash) has funded iControlPad.
So hope that they get the premiums and that OPT survive. But I for one will think twice before pre-ordering the Pandora2.
How do you define the cost of a Pandora? The parts and manufacturing to make a Pandora almost certainly are less than 350USD. So they are making profit? No.
The problem is the large cost in designing. Whether that is half a million or 300k we don't know. But its pretty substantial. And there is no sign up till now of that being paid back.
In fact, accidentally they have created a Ponzi scheme. These have something of a bad name thanks to Mr Madoff (although you could argue pensions and insurance schemes are also closely related).
What I mean is, they used batch1 pre-order to pay for a substantial amount of the devt. Its probable that batch2 pre-order paid for the manufacture of batch1. So they are in a position where each unit makes a very minor repayment towards the initial costs so getting out of this situation is going to be very hard. If batch3 pre order pays for batch2 and so, at some point you won't have the pre-orders to pay for already purchased units. And bang, out of business.
To his credit, Craig is clearly trying to address this (although as ever has tried to sell it as something different), and there is only a small window where people will pay the premium so wise to try to get out of the situation whilst can. I'm lucky enough to already have my Pandora and want it to succeed (have even bought additional spare parts that don't need as a way to 'help').
No doubt it will leave a bad taste in the mouth for those are in the second half of batch1 and I doubt many of those will trust Craig with their pre-order money again in the future. I think people would give more slack if money hadn't been spent on iControlPad and the tv out had been delivered. That taste in the mouth isn't helped by the feeling that tv cable money (and some of the batch1/2 cash) has funded iControlPad.
So hope that they get the premiums and that OPT survive. But I for one will think twice before pre-ordering the Pandora2.
Trip
Sorry, but I suck at explaining stuff :P
The People who already have their Pandora want a bigger user base and more software.Turnip said:
Batch 2 people want it to happen because it means that they will get their Pandora a lot sooner and they want a bigger user base and more software.
Most of the people on this board are in the first batch and still haven't received what they have paid for and waited for for over 2 years.
Last edited by a moderator:
gibberish
Active Member
If OP team goes with a revised CPU for later batches then they are hypocrites, simple as that. We were repeatedly told that all machines until 'Pandora 2' would have the same performance (bar clockability) when we ordered. To turn around and start spitting out Pandoras with faster processors for those that ordered later is a boot in the testes. I don't think they'll do it, the backlash would be too immense.
Trip
Sorry, but I suck at explaining stuff :P
As far as I'm aware it looks like some of the cheaper SD cards aren't as reliable.Neko said:
It could be to do with power usage; either the cards not drawing enough power from the Pandora to run or the Pandora is supplying too much power and shorting the cards out??
Decent cards seem to work ok
Last edited by a moderator:
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
God Ginrai said:
That's just it God Ginrai, it wouldn't be the same price. The Pandora is never going to be $350 again, Craig has confirmed that much, and it could end up permanently costing $500.
In the world of handheld gaming machines there have constantly been updates. DS Lite: increased the screen size, decreased overall size, increased battery life. PSP-2000: decreased overall size, increased battery life, doubled RAM. DSi: Double processor speed, quadrupled RAM. PSP-Go: Higher processor speed.
And these aren't gaming systems, plain and simple. There's not a big set of dedicated software made just for them, and a different version wouldn't change the software pool.
gibberish said:
They've said LOTS of things, including that it'll be at $350 - I don't know how this is crossing the line. Maybe it's because you've already secured your order at the lower price?
Last edited by a moderator:
DisgruntleElf
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2005
- Messages
- 339
Exophase said:
Its all about supply and demand. Right now Craig has successfully re-hyped the Pandora with his new $500 Pandora Premium Limited Edition marketing blitz. I'm sure he's using this to test the waters as to how much he can raise Pandora's price. Once all the pre-orders have been filled and the must have frenzy demand drops off Craig may be forced to drop prices.
Last edited by a moderator:
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
DisgruntleElf said:
It isn't relevant why it's being done, only that there'd never be $350 Pandoras with a better processor because there won't be more $350 processors.
Last edited by a moderator:
MWeston
Internal Development
I actually like the idea of using the DM3730 when the price of the unit goes up. If people have to pay so much more, it would be nice if it was for more than just keeping the project moving. It makes logical sense and everything is totally software compatible as the hardware changes are controlled at the kernel level. That's just my opinion though.
andmaz
Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2004
- Messages
- 179
The only thing that bothers me is that CC only seem to be producing 250 boards per week so we will not get a Pandora any quicker period! It will be longer but with a greater guarantee that OPT will not go bust.
Getting another board company in as well has a lead time so irrelevant to the early batch 1 preorders (first few days).
However, OPT need to make a profit but have to be 100% open and honest on this one point.
Given the vast amount of posts and information on all this which some contridicts others then sorry if this has all been explained away but at the moment the production numbers make no sense from the poinbt of getting a Pandora earlier due to the queue jumpers.
Getting another board company in as well has a lead time so irrelevant to the early batch 1 preorders (first few days).
However, OPT need to make a profit but have to be 100% open and honest on this one point.
Given the vast amount of posts and information on all this which some contridicts others then sorry if this has all been explained away but at the moment the production numbers make no sense from the poinbt of getting a Pandora earlier due to the queue jumpers.
quartercast
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2007
- Messages
- 1,551
1+ for DM3730
But I think the insta Pandoras should stay at OMAP3530, only batch 1, 2, 3 should be upgraded to DM3730.
But I think the insta Pandoras should stay at OMAP3530, only batch 1, 2, 3 should be upgraded to DM3730.
If I was going to pay $500, it'd be nice if it came with increased RAM. Firefox is kinda slow with only 256MB.MWeston said:
If you can't get 3730s, where are the beagleboard people getting their chips from? Maybe you can ask CC.
Last edited by a moderator:
Polossatik
I reject your reality and substitute my own
While as such i have a bit of an issue with the 500$ units now being offered, I can understand the need for it if OP needs the $$.
I see the fact that I'm (hopefully) getting my pandora for the original price as a "return" on my investment now 2 years ago, I can live with it, i prefer OP to survive the day.
The actual question is in fact IMHO what the pricepoint should be for a pandora (be it OMAP3530/3730) to make this a sustainable business.
This is something OP should have a clear idea about. They have about 3500 pandora's from batch1 they need to (or have already) deliver for a "loss", I'm not sure how many batch2 orders they have, but let's assume it are another 1000 or so. (I'm not including units set aside or used for repair or so , hence 3500 and not 4000 for batch one)
That's a big number, if they loose for let's say 100 $ for each of those 4500 (early batch1 will be more loss, later orders less loss or maybe break even seen the price already went up IIRC) then you're talking about 450.000 usd !
That would mean if selling it at 500 $ gives 200$ profit they need to sell 2250 pandora's at 500$ before they even get one $ profit....
These figures are just blind and uneducated guesses to get some figures of course and most likely not even near accurate, but you're talking about quite a lot of money....
I see the fact that I'm (hopefully) getting my pandora for the original price as a "return" on my investment now 2 years ago, I can live with it, i prefer OP to survive the day
.The actual question is in fact IMHO what the pricepoint should be for a pandora (be it OMAP3530/3730) to make this a sustainable business.
This is something OP should have a clear idea about. They have about 3500 pandora's from batch1 they need to (or have already) deliver for a "loss", I'm not sure how many batch2 orders they have, but let's assume it are another 1000 or so. (I'm not including units set aside or used for repair or so , hence 3500 and not 4000 for batch one)
That's a big number, if they loose for let's say 100 $ for each of those 4500 (early batch1 will be more loss, later orders less loss or maybe break even seen the price already went up IIRC) then you're talking about 450.000 usd !
That would mean if selling it at 500 $ gives 200$ profit they need to sell 2250 pandora's at 500$ before they even get one $ profit....
These figures are just blind and uneducated guesses to get some figures of course and most likely not even near accurate, but you're talking about quite a lot of money....
- Status
