Pandora Price Increase!

[DisgruntleElf]

Why do you even need to pay anyone? Didn't numerous members of the community volunteer their time to help build Pandoras with the initial launch? I'm sure if you put the call out once again the community would gladly help out to save you some bucks and the project. Many members are expert modders and would need very little direction at all. Better they can bring their own salami.

 

[benji_stein]

You can't have a salami sandwich if they run out of salami and have to wait for a salami delivery. Besides the fact I already paid for the salami and bread used In the other guys sandwich.

But we have the Salami, we are just missing guys who make the sandwich!
And to pay them, the instant-Pandoras have been created, so the Salami won't lie around until it stinks but will also be built into new sandwiches

Pardon? Remind me... how many Boards does Craig have in the UK? My last estimate was ~250, except a chunk of those (should) have shipped out this week.

The next batch of 500 boards was supposed to ship out on Friday (did they?) and will no doubt take a week to arrive in the UK. So, for next week, where are all of these magical boards coming from, to both speed up regular preorders, and fuel the 7-dayers? Once those 500 are gone, how long before there are more? CC hasn't been going terribly fast lately.

I also second DisgruntleElf's question.

 

[streak]

The worst thing in this whole "Pandora-Gate" is that community trust for Craig and Co. has been lost and i dont think that anyone would give a money for next Pandora 2 project 'til project will be done.. I think Craig knows about that, and tries to get most $ from pandora fans today.. I dont mean its wrong. Its business, baby.

 

[DragonSpawn]

The worst thing in this whole "Pandora-Gate" is that community trust for Craig and Co. has been lost and i dont think that anyone would give a money for next Pandora 2 project 'til project will be done.. I think Craig knows about that, and tries to get most $ from pandora fans today.. I dont mean its wrong. Its business, baby.

Speak for yourself. My trust for OP is very much intact. Their actions make perfect sense to me, and most likely quite a few others.
I'm waiting for my batch 1 Pandora still AND ordered a premium yesterday to support the project.

 

[streak]

Oh, OK. Im speaking for myself, then..

Anyway, this could explain partially the problem with dev'ers that lost interests in Pandora dev after receiving dev-board, but waits too long to release real panda, which has been told by Craig some time ago..

 

[Trip]

Oh, OK. Im speaking for myself, then..

I wouldn't say so. I think this latest action has proved that OpenPandora are just as bad as any other company.

I remember when Craig used to slag off Nokia for not supporting the people who bought the early tablets and helped Nokia bring them to market. How's this any different?

 

[streak]

btw. Because between first batch and second WILL BE A GAP, the best solution was to offer Pandas for $500 in this particular moment, and not when first batch wasnt finished.

 

[benji_stein]

btw. Because between first batch and second WILL BE A GAP, the best solution was to offer Pandas for $500 in this particular moment, and not when first batch wasnt finished.

If there's still going to be a gap, then this will only serve to make the gap bigger.

 

[jonjandran]

Wonderful idea.

 

[Exophase]

Something that I never found exact information for in the other thread is what the new "permanent" price for the Pandora is going to be. It was said that the $500 price would just be a limited special offer to raise money, but that Pandoras won't be sold at $350 anymore. I assume this goes for not just batches 3 and beyond but also for a remainder of batch 2. So what is the new price going to be?

What really boggles my mind is that to the best of my knowledge OP has no intention to move the Pandora to use DM3730 instead of OMAP3530. They're going to charge more money for a unit that costs more to produce than a faster one would. The community at large seems okay with these fund raising tactics but won't support OP saving money on a superior product because apparently that would be betraying the people who preordered for the existing OMAP3530 stock.

Other than that, I don't get how OP only now can say that $350 isn't enough to cover costs. Component costs should have, at large, gone down and not up (even the OMAP3530 has quite a lot, although it's an expensive part in general), and initial investments (case mould anyone?) are out of the way too. We were told that money was lost on the $330 units but that's why the price was raised to $500. When the decision was made for the Pandora to use OMAP3 back in 2007 craigix asked if the community would buy a unit that costs 200 GBP. Now it's 2011 and OMAP3530 is growing more and more obsolete, yet the cost of Pandora is going up instead. And most people are happy with this. I want to know why OP only now is saying a price hike is needed, because to me it means they were either lying about $350 being sufficient way back when or they're lying about $350 being insufficient now.

 

[streak]

If i see this correct [between the words of OP spokesmen], OP canceled few contract with chinese companies , and maybe this forced them to team up with more expensive companies. For example they're changed nubs and case moulding companies.

 

[Popcorn Dave]

I can imagine all this back and forth between different companies might have partly accounted for the prices going up. But yes... you would think that if the components are the same, Pandoras should be cheaper to make now than they were three years ago. Personally I suspect they just screwed up their sums but I'm a bit cynical like that.

 

[ari64]

What really boggles my mind is that to the best of my knowledge OP has no intention to move the Pandora to use DM3730 instead of OMAP3530. They're going to charge more money for a unit that costs more to produce than a faster one would. The community at large seems okay with these fund raising tactics but won't support OP saving money on a superior product because apparently that would be betraying the people who preordered for the existing OMAP3530 stock.

Yes, I suggested the DM3730 to him in the other thread. I think the problem is that he has a few thousand unsold OMAP3530 chips and has no cash to buy a tray of 3730s.

I suspect that future Pandoras won't cost $350 to make. However, the ones already produced did cost more than $350, due to the cost of replacing failed nubs and failed LCD cables. Because of these costs, Craig is out of money and can't finance a third batch. So he has two choices, either bring in investors, or try to raise some capital with these 7-day orders. For various reasons, selling shares is legally and administratively difficult, so he trying the second option.

Selling a 600Mhz Pandora for $350, and a 1GHz Pandora for $500 could be a viable business, but only after the first 8000 are delivered.

 

[Exophase]

Yes, I suggested the DM3730 to him in the other thread. I think the problem is that he has a few thousand unsold OMAP3530 chips and has no cash to buy a tray of 3730s.

I suspect that future Pandoras won't cost $350 to make. However, the ones already produced did cost more than $350, due to the cost of replacing failed nubs and failed LCD cables. Because of these costs, Craig is out of money and can't finance a third batch. So he has two choices, either bring in investors, or try to raise some capital with these 7-day orders. For various reasons, selling shares is legally and administratively difficult, so he trying the second option.

Selling a 600Mhz Pandora for $350, and a 1GHz Pandora for $500 could be a viable business, but only after the first 8000 are delivered.

Granted, they may already have enough components for all of batch 2, but that'd mean they don't need much more money for it. If we assume that the price will stay at $350 for batch 2 then they could do batch 3 with the new cheaper and better parts.

I hope that what you said isn't true, because he said he needs to sell $500 Pandoras to hire more manufacturers, not cover their losses. But when you think about it, it's all pretty shaky. It takes a fixed number of man hours to manufacture Pandoras (unless they need more money to buy better workers, which I hope isn't the case). Spending more money isn't supposed to speed up manufacturing unless they never had that manufacturing money in the first place. Which wouldn't exactly be the first time such a thing has happened.

No one is going to pay $150 for a 400MHz upgrade, especially not when many Pandoras happily overclock to 1GHz anyway (no idea what a DM3730 could overclock to but it's probably not as big of a percentage). They might spend it to actually get one, since the $350 stock would surely sell out first. But it's more viable that they'd all cost more - maybe not $500, but more. Furthermore, how do you think people will react to a $500 Pandora that's actually know to cost less to make than the $350 one? Personally I think anything over $350 is going to risk sales, especially if it crosses the $400 threshold. And if they do succeed in pushing the price up that much and still generating sales then it's going to send a message to some other business with just slightly more money that for a modest investment one can make huge margins on a something Pandora-like. Only with a brand new OMAP4430, 3D screen, better analog sticks, or who knows what else. And then it'll all be over.

 

[ari64]

Granted, they may already have enough components for all of batch 2, but that'd mean they don't need much more money for it. If we assume that the price will stay at $350 for batch 2 then they could do batch 3 with the new cheaper and better parts.

Well, they ordered the CPU, RAM, and WiFi chips. Possibly they still need to order the PCBs and some other parts like the redesigned LCD cables. I guess it would also be a good idea to figure out why some SD slots are failing, in case they need to switch a part there.

I hope that what you said isn't true, because he said he needs to sell $500 Pandoras to hire more manufacturers, not cover their losses. But when you think about it, it's all pretty shaky.

But it's all the same, isn't it? He doesn't have money to hire workers because of the losses. Money to cover losses, and money to hire workers is the same thing.

No one is going to pay $150 for a 400MHz upgrade, especially not when many Pandoras happily overclock to 1GHz anyway (no idea what a DM3730 could overclock to but it's probably not as big of a percentage). They might spend it to actually get one, since the $350 stock would surely sell out first. But it's more viable that they'd all cost more - maybe not $500, but more. Furthermore, how do you think people will react to a $500 Pandora that's actually know to cost less to make than the $350 one? Personally I think anything over $350 is going to risk sales, especially if it crosses the $400 threshold. And if they do succeed in pushing the price up that much and still generating sales then it's going to send a message to some other business with just slightly more money that for a modest investment one can make huge margins on a something Pandora-like. Only with a brand new OMAP4430, 3D screen, better analog sticks, or who knows what else. And then it'll all be over.

DM3730 has a bigger cache also, right? I'm not sure how much difference it makes, but the upgrade is more than just clock speed.

And those other businesses made such huge margins on things like the UMID, OQO, Netwalker, and so on. Really?

 

[Exophase]

Well, they ordered the CPU, RAM, and WiFi chips. Possibly they still need to order the PCBs and some other parts like the redesigned LCD cables. I guess it would also be a good idea to figure out why some SD slots are failing, in case they need to switch a part there.

I hadn't heard about SD slots failing :/

If they don't have money to accelerate manufacturing I don't see how they'll have enough money for that stuff, assuming it really isn't paid for. I also don't see how selling a marginal number of $500 Pandoras will give them enough money.

But it's all the same, isn't it? He doesn't have money to hire workers because of the losses. Money to cover losses, and money to hire workers is the same thing.

It isn't the same. The story we're being told is that OP would use the money to bring out units faster, not that they need the money because they need the money. And if they don't have money to complete manufacturing then they don't have money to satisfy purchases that have already been made. That puts a very different spin on things, and if it's true the $500 Pandora plan is going to get a lot less well received/

DM3730 has a bigger cache also, right? I'm not sure how much difference it makes, but the upgrade is more than just clock speed.

It has more L1 cache and higher DSP and much higher SGX clocks, but the buying public at large is just going to see "more CPU MHz."

And those other businesses made such huge margins on things like the UMID, OQO, Netwalker, and so on. Really?

Different market, and I contend that the UMPC market (which was never big in the first place) is dying out. And it's not like the Pandora is really playing in exactly the same specifications. Point is someone could steal Pandora's market (which they pretty much have to themselves) by undercutting them, I don't see why it can't happen. People are also more liable to compare the Pandora's price to < $300 tablets or the $230 iPod Touch.

 

[DavidBowman]

What really boggles my mind is that to the best of my knowledge OP has no intention to move the Pandora to use DM3730 instead of OMAP3530. They're going to charge more money for a unit that costs more to produce than a faster one would. The community at large seems okay with these fund raising tactics but won't support OP saving money on a superior product because apparently that would be betraying the people who preordered for the existing OMAP3530 stock.

Yes, I suggested the DM3730 to him in the other thread. I think the problem is that he has a few thousand unsold OMAP3530 chips and has no cash to buy a tray of 3730s.

I suspect that future Pandoras won't cost $350 to make. However, the ones already produced did cost more than $350, due to the cost of replacing failed nubs and failed LCD cables. Because of these costs, Craig is out of money and can't finance a third batch. So he has two choices, either bring in investors, or try to raise some capital with these 7-day orders. For various reasons, selling shares is legally and administratively difficult, so he trying the second option.

Selling a 600Mhz Pandora for $350, and a 1GHz Pandora for $500 could be a viable business, but only after the first 8000 are delivered.

The only way prices fall on electronics is by economies of scale (wikipedia article), and the only way that can happen is when you can ramp up production to a decent level. This would be impossible if they tried to change the hardware now. With all the obstacles they've overcome already, I would be shocked if they announced a hardware change before the fourth batch is produced.

 

[neko]

I hadn't heard about SD slots failing :/

Happened to me. It's not totally dead, just unreliable. Not sure if it's bad soldering or bad PCB or what.

The story we're being told is that OP would use the money to bring out units faster, not that they need the money because they need the money. And if they don't have money to complete manufacturing then they don't have money to satisfy purchases that have already been made. That puts a very different spin on things, and if it's true the $500 Pandora plan is going to get a lot less well received/

http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php?/topic/996-refurbished-pandoras-on-ebay/page__st__20
http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php?/topic/1304-whats-happening-today/page__st__20

You might as well rename this thread the 'Michael Weston survival fund' (AKA let's keep Michael Weston working for us because he is awesome).

Rather than $ signs I'd just love to have a new car, and by new I mean second hand.

My current one is 13 years old and has something like 245,000 miles on it, and I know it's dying. It is going though oil like it's petrol.

My girlfriend needs it to get to Uni every day and every morning I hear it taking longer and longer to start.

So looking at pages on gp32spain and seeing people think we're making millions from this depresses me. We're actually preparing to rent out rooms in our
house to make some extra money.

I have £26 in my personal bank account.

I'm living like this because I'm absolutely sure we can make this a long term success. Every last penny goes to the business and setting up solid as rock foundations. I am sure we can be the people and community who push an open machine in to the mainstream, even if it's just 1 or 2% of the mainstream market, if the foundations are solid we can keep going.

I'd say "they need the money because they need the money" is a fair assessment of the situation.

 

[Exophase]

The only way prices fall on electronics is by economies of scale (wikipedia article), and the only way that can happen is when you can ramp up production to a decent level. This would be impossible if they tried to change the hardware now. With all the obstacles they've overcome already, I would be shocked if they announced a hardware change before the fourth batch is produced.

That "only way" consists of several cited categories on that Wikipedia node. Pay close attention to the "technological" one. Because of Moore's law all integrated circuits have enjoyed a steady increase in performance/$ for decades; likewise, since a modern electronic device consists of several components manufactured by several companies you enjoy the indirect effects of their improved economy of scale which is reflected in lower component costs to you. Lower component costs means lower cost device without any hardware change at the top level.

In this case, TI is selling DM3730 for a cheaper price than OMAP3530 despite it being a superior part precisely thanks to Moore's law; the new one is 45nm where the old one was 65nm, and smaller means more dies on a wafer which means less cost to manufacture. It's that simple. And because Pandora's motherboard was already made compatible with DM3730 it wouldn't cost OP any design changes to move to it. But this compatibility was only made as risk mitigation in case TI decided to stop selling OMAP3530 in the future (which brings with it the gloomy suggestion that OP plans on selling the same Pandora for several years, despite what craigix said about two year cycles). I'm not saying they should dump OMAP3530 stock but they've openly expressed that they have no intention to start buying DM3730 once they run out.

I'd say "they need the money because they need the money" is a fair assessment of the situation.

Ugh. Based on those posts I'm inclined to agree with you, but that makes their whole pitch a total shill job.

I like MWeston a lot and appreciate/respect his contribution to Pandora but what exactly is his role in the company right now, that is taking his time and preventing him from finding money elsewhere? I'm just going on what Craig about this, not criticizing MWeston personally. Unless he's been designing Pandora 2 I'm not sure I see what this is about.

 

[God Ginrai]

The only way prices fall on electronics is by economies of scale (wikipedia article), and the only way that can happen is when you can ramp up production to a decent level. This would be impossible if they tried to change the hardware now. With all the obstacles they've overcome already, I would be shocked if they announced a hardware change before the fourth batch is produced.

That "only way" consists of several cited categories on that Wikipedia node. Pay close attention to the "technological" one. Because of Moore's law all integrated circuits have enjoyed a steady increase in performance/$ for decades; likewise, since a modern electronic device consists of several components manufactured by several companies you enjoy the indirect effects of their improved economy of scale which is reflected in lower component costs to you. Lower component costs means lower cost device without any hardware change at the top level.

In this case, TI is selling DM3730 for a cheaper price than OMAP3530 despite it being a superior part precisely thanks to Moore's law; the new one is 45nm where the old one was 65nm, and smaller means more dies on a wafer which means less cost to manufacture. It's that simple. And because Pandora's motherboard was already made compatible with DM3730 it wouldn't cost OP any design changes to move to it. But this compatibility was only made as risk mitigation in case TI decided to stop selling OMAP3530 in the future (which brings with it the gloomy suggestion that OP plans on selling the same Pandora for several years, despite what craigix said about two year cycles). I'm not saying they should dump OMAP3530 stock but they've openly expressed that they have no intention to start buying DM3730 once they run out.

I'd say "they need the money because they need the money" is a fair assessment of the situation.

Ugh. Based on those posts I'm inclined to agree with you, but that makes their whole pitch a total shill job.

I like MWeston a lot and appreciate/respect his contribution to Pandora but what exactly is his role in the company right now, that is taking his time and preventing him from finding money elsewhere? I'm just going on what Craig about this, not criticizing MWeston personally. Unless he's been designing Pandora 2 I'm not sure I see what this is about.

So Exophase, If Craig went with this new SoC, wouldn't he be doing one of the big things he always criticized GPH for? If he went with this chip, he would be splitting the community between those who adopted early, and all the people who benefited by waiting to get a new improved version. (Just like GPH did with the touchscreen for the GP2X)

-God Ginrai