Pandora Keyboard Layout

[Polossatik]

hum,

As I understood that Pandora production is now on it's way, what is now the chosen keyboard layout?

anyone? Or will the keyboard be made last or so?

 

[Grench]

I -really- like this tri-color design. Good catch/fix on the missing 0.

A few refinement suggestions though...

The . character already appears on the keyboard on the Fn2 numerics. It would no longer need to be on the game pad button.

The ~ should be moved to the Fn-Q.

The | should be moved to the Fn2-L.

The , should be moved to the Fn2-N.

The . should be moved to the Fn2-M.

The ¬ (alt-170) should be removed unless someone can say why it would be common enough to require space. Since it's primary use is a 'NOT' programming command (as far as I can tell), maybe it should be left out? Is this a common key requirement on anything?

I also note that we have both a standard pipe | Fn2-M (as on the shift-\ on a US QWERTY keyboard) and a non serrated pipe │ on Fn2-K (alt-179) now or vertical bar. Do we need the vertical bar │or is this a position that could be used for ¬ (alt-170) if it needs to stay?

Just my 2¢.

 

[Karel Jansens]

Pandora will now come with this keyboard.

If only... [sigh]

 

[Lennox Rosomer]

Personally I like Olexxy's keymap best of all except a few minor problems.

on the ERT DFG CVB keys the numbers and up down left right arrows really serve no purpose except taking up space that other keys could be mapped too seeing as the UDLR (4 way) pad and main numerical keys already exist.

If the above is done one should be able to clean up the numerical keys at the top. no offense but that's just way to many functions per key...

I am assuming that one of the shoulder keys (L R) are for the blue function lock while the other one is for red, correct?

"Shift" should really be printed, instead of just a symbol.

Caps should be moved to the shift key as a function (blue)


Just my 2 cents.

 

[cosurgi]

cant copy/paste with cosurgi
cant use bash (that command line thing) with cosurgi
remember you only got your thumbs to type with!

I'm a quite proficient bash power user. And vim too (but surely, emacs is not forgotten here!). I'm coding in C++ also, etc. But I didn't make this design with development & programming in mind only. I just made sure that it will be comfortable for that also. I tried to find best middlegrounds for all tasks possible, whether you want to write comments on this forum, use touchscreen & stylus, play games or hack kernel drivers. Not an easy task, to design, mind you!

 

[Olexxy]

Hi cosurgi and all others interested in this subject

Since my last post and peca's post, I had a (loonng) read through the threads mentionned by peca (and only these ) and found out all about the discussions that already happened on this subject (interesting I must say).

I am still interested in trying to propose an alternative layout. However for this purpose I would need to fully understand the limitations of the hardware..

Here Tobriand says:

hardware limitations in place...

But here MWeston says:

The three buttons in the middle are mapped to GPIO pins like the game buttons. There isn't anything special about them, but you can enable interrupts for any GPIO so I had plans to do that for the MENU(Pandora?) button with the intent of letting the kernel take over for task switching and stuff like that. I was also wondering if I should take the FN button out of the keypad matrix and make it a GPIO so that 3-key combos can be done. I'm not sure if that is pointless yet. For something this small and hand held, trying to get on top of three buttons simultaneously sounds difficult (if one of them isn't a shoulder button that is).

The buttons currently labeled MENU and START have alternate functions when the power switch is pressed. This is tied directly into the hardware to reboot the board into different modes. Again, during normal operation, they are just regular GPIOs.

So, can someone explain (or point me to some explanations on the subject):
- Are the the main keyboard and the GPIO are related (hardware wise) ?
- Are the upper 11 keys (assigned to 1-10 / F1-F10 etc in the currentlayouts) part of the main keyboard or the GPIO ?
- Is the buffer size of the main keyboard confirmed to be 2 simultaneous keys max ?
- What is it for the GPIO and am I correct in thinking that GPIO buffer can be seen as in addition of the main keyboard buffer ? (ie I can press keys on GPIO and still have 2 keys possible for main keyboard) ?


Also, I now believe my current proposition is probably not really adapted to the device, I made a mock-up of it thanks to SteveM pdf, and now I see why it compares so well in dimensions with my DS lite
A few pictures I made with it to get an idea of the scales : 1 2a 2b 3

Pict 1 shows the panda sitting on my logitech keyboard, and I copied part of the keys to the pandora to better represent the size of full-sized printed characters compared to the proposed layouts (and I start to believe that bold qwerty letters on the proposed layouts are bigger than on standard keyboard ! At least horizontally)

Complete with Pict 2 (pandora next to a nokia 6021 phone), these 2 picts gives a good feel of the pandora keyboard scale : horizontal spacing between keys with pandora is ~the same as on nokia 6021 and 3:2 ratio with standard keyboard. Vertical spacing is more difficult to judge, the pandora keyboard will have some room vertically, as much as horizontally (contrary to the nokia which is vertically in a 3:2 ratio with the pandora)

Pict 3 shows that it's possible to hold the pandora in portrait mode, and still access surprisingly confortably both Dpad and ABXY (and the analog nubs as well), which could be interesting if a DS emulator is made someday, or maybe just for e-reading (not sure how usable this would be as it's only 480px wide, but who knows)

 

[Chip]

So, can someone explain (or point me to some explanations on the subject):
- Are the the main keyboard and the GPIO are related (hardware wise) ?
- Are the upper 11 keys (assigned to 1-10 / F1-F10 etc in the currentlayouts) part of the main keyboard or the GPIO ?
- Is the buffer size of the main keyboard confirmed to be 2 simultaneous keys max ?
- What is it for the GPIO and am I correct in thinking that GPIO buffer can be seen as in addition of the main keyboard buffer ? (ie I can press keys on GPIO and still have 2 keys possible for main keyboard) ?

If I understand Michael correctly: All keyboard keys, except the three "menu" keys in the middle of the device, are mapped in a matrix. This matrix is made up of GPIO lines. All gaming controls and the three menu buttons are connected directly to GPIO lines. The two-at-a-time limit is not a buffer limitation, but a function of the matrix layout, and is similar to the limit you have with most (all?) keyboards. As the gaming and menu buttons have dedicated lines, they are not subject to, nor counted towards this limit.

 

[Olexxy]

Thanks for the info Chip, interesting the link you gave So I understand that the pandora keyboard is not implementing diodes, thus the limit of 2 ?

I made a new layout taking into account this, while trying also not to impose sticky functions for simple shortcuts if possible, and also hopefully allowing all sort of (usual) shortcut including Ctrl+mouse wheel etc. It could be also possible to add a combination like Red+F5 for instance (software mapping) which would switch the main standard keyboard to a different alphabet (people would have to add their alphabet by hand / with stickers if visual help is required)

Link:


Let me know what you think of it ? (btw I put the capital qwerty letters to the top, as is usually on all keyboards as it represents the shifted key)

 

[Grench]

It took a few minutes to get my mind around what you did there.

I like it. The layout works pretty well too.

The underlying question that hasn't been officially answered though is...

Can we have 3 color printing on the keys? Please?

 

[greendots]

Theres no need to make a new layout. Most designs where created with sticky keys in mind. That means only 1 key is pressed at a time, one after another, in order to do multi-key commands.

The only people that is affected by this are those who refuse to use sticky keys and with only 2 buttons max on the keyboard, they will have to use the gaming control buttons as meta keys.

 

[Olexxy]

So according to you greendots we have to follow exactly what is done on mobile-phone keyboard size, which is square and half the size of the pandora (that is more like a real keyboard in its shape), and not what is done on EEEpc like, which is twice bigger than the pandora.. Sorry I don't see the obvious answer here..

Anyway, nobody apart from Grench seems interested in more discussion on this even though it was discussed with a more limited number of users than after pre-order; never mind, I hope the possibility to customize the layout will be proposed from the beginning and hopefully in an easy yet effective manner.

++

 

[greendots]

The Pandora is so small unless you are 4 years old you will have to type with your thumbs. Pandora is around 1/4 the size of the EEE pc.

Many people have discussed the topic of the keyboard, it has at least 3 topics here and one on the other forums. Each topic has about a dozen pages. Each page has 15 posts.

The only thing worth debating here is the PRINTED layout. The keyboard has always been software controlled and can be customized however anyone wishes.

 

[Olexxy]

comparison, surface is maybe 1/4 yes, width is 1/2, which is my point. Never said I was thinking of using other fingers than thumbs, I just think of both thumbs simultaneously with good thinking on these combinations. Anyway, no point continuing on this, you have made up your mind and my proposal is not firing more reactions here so that must mean the final design is chosen (but to be honest I would prefer the devs and/or the main actors of all these discussions to express their feeling / tell me I am wrong and why).

 

[cosurgi]

yeah, I'd like to know too what the devs picked. To be honest I'm getting a little disappointed at devs attitude, because the printed layout is what will stay with me forever, when I got Pandora. Yo, go and flame on how busy devs are, surely I understand this. Just my vent-off.

 

[Etinin]

yeah, I'd like to know too what the devs picked. To be honest I'm getting a little disappointed at devs attitude, because the printed layout is what will stay with me forever, when I got Pandora. Yo, go and flame on how busy devs are, surely I understand this. Just my vent-off.

I totally agree, I think someone could at minimally pass by and tell us if/which keyboard layout has been chosen, why not at least spare 5min to answer us faithful pre-orderers.

 

[Sphinxter]

STFU, shouldn't have ordered one.

 

[AireTamStorm]

yeah, I'd like to know too what the devs picked. To be honest I'm getting a little disappointed at devs attitude, because the printed layout is what will stay with me forever, when I got Pandora. Yo, go and flame on how busy devs are, surely I understand this. Just my vent-off.

We still do not know which layout is being used? This should be a "yes" / "no" or the quick point of the finger into the sunset away from being answered, as preorders have already taken place and they have undoubtedly ordered the main hardware. If they're still deciding which layout after numerous polls and a ton of community feedback.... I won't finish that thought.

I, at least, am with you on this one. I'm excited to know that the Ubuntu / Debian repos will be supported, SCIM is a few commands away on your layout. :lol:

 

[PoisonedV]

STFU, shouldn't have ordered one.

while, pre ordering is a leap of faith and all that... it's still good practice to tell people. and not just because it's common courtesy, but because we were promised some information- the paypal thing set this back, of course, but I still know where hes coming from.

 

[ish420]

You people are still arguing about the Layout? You must be retarded. :blink: All of you. The layout has been around since the damn thing was announced.
CAN YOU ALL STFU AND LOOK AT THE PICTURE. :angry:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a...test-080508.jpg

CLOSE THIS DAMN THREAD ALREADY. IN FACT DELETE IT. It's been a waist of time and effort. :angry:

 

[Arialia]

You people are still arguing about the Layout? You must be retarded. :blink: All of you. The layout has been around since the damn thing was announced.
CAN YOU ALL STFU AND LOOK AT THE PICTURE. :angry:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a...test-080508.jpg

CLOSE THIS DAMN THREAD ALREADY. IN FACT DELETE IT. It's been a waist of time and effort. :angry:



Well if only ONE dev said that i can believe it but MWeston said that here
QUOTE
I've been reading through this topic. It is a good discussion and one we need to figure out right away. I have pretty much ignored it for months because you can prototype and make molds without worrying about the last step of stenciling characters on the keys. I want to learn more from the assembler in the next couple of weeks about what it would take to have different batches of labeled keypad buttons for shipments to different countries. I'm not saying it will go down that way, but if it were a couple pennies more, then maybe it is a good idea? I don't see it being cost effective only on a batch of 3000 units though. The solution is likely to be one layout that makes the most people happy right from launch day and for the life of Pandora and then focus on software solutions for any other characters.

If I had to make one complaint, it would be about clutter. I really don't like the idea of five or six different symbols on a button. smile.gif These drawings in this topic are super sized! The real buttons are small (8.25x7.75mm top surface) and making the text tiny to fit it all seems counter productive. I would like to continue to sit back and watch this topic though. It doesn't fall on blind eyes and everyone is paying attention.

I remember Steve Jobs bragging about the iPhone's lack of a physical keyboard because it prevents dealing with problems like this. Well, I like physical keyboards but it is a real challenge with an international product. I don't think there will be a way to please absolutely everyone so the final solution will likely be the english letters as primary and a mixed subset of common, important letters from other languages common to GP32X users. An onscreen keyboard is probably going to be necessary to get everyone covered and it might be nice to make consideration in software for an easy way to pop one up any time it will be needed.


So i think the first post on keyboard made by Cosurgi was really good thread

Now it could be fine than Devs tell to us what is the final keyboard design ...