Openpandora Ltd (UK) Struck off email

[ramboky]

You think people should consider a soft approach with Craig because he may be ill?

I am quite certain that I haven't written anything remotely like that anywhere, so no, most certainly not.

You're absolutely right, I misread your post. My apologies.

I've had this confirmed both by my businesses legal advisor

Then you didn't explain the situation very well. The email is quite clear as to what the upgrade means, it is an offer and includes obligations: discounted price on an improved Pandora in exchange for forgiveness of the original pre-order. By taking the steps outlined in the email you accepted the offer, and it became a legally binding contract. All obligations on OPTs side were complete, you got the Pandora you upgraded to, and you are bound by your side of the obligations, notably the implicit forgiveness of the original pre-order.

Nope, he got it right. A third party cannot change the conditions or cancel a contract between two other parties. It doesn't matter what ED offered or what the conditions were because ED's business and OP LTD UK are two separate legal entities. Unless the change in contract was made between Stuart and OP LTD UK then the original contract and obligation remains.

 

[WizardStan]

Unless the change in contract was made between Stuart and OP LTD UK

It was. Craig's company, OP LTD UK, is the one that sent out the email. The upgrade path is not *just* something that EvilDragon decided to do and Stuart took advantage of, it was an agreement reached between OP Ltd and OP Gmbh to help Craig deal with his pre-orders, the intention which has always been made clear from the very beginning.

 

[stuart]

I got one email from OPL and one from ED. Just re-read both. It wasn't clear, most of the things mentioned my WizardStan were not mentioned in ether email. I DID explain the situation perfectly to my legal advisor and also provided copies of the communications. 

Can you stop with the accusations of wrongdoing please. I acted because I thought the situation stank and I felt mislead. I shared my actions here as I thought it would be good to bounce ideas off others but perhaps I shouldn't have. 

 

[levi]

FWIW in my case I was referring to the earlier (original? I forget) offer that ED made to Craig's customers. I never received the survey email as Craig had (quite rightly) taken me off the list of people owed a Pandora. When I ordered my Pandora I simply went to ED's site, selected the appropriate item (Pandora for Craig's customers, or something like that) and entered my customer number in the notes box. I can't honestly remember the terms of the offer (though they're almost certainly in a news thread somewhere round here), but I understood it to fulfil my order with Craig.

 

[WizardStan]

It wasn't clear

Really? You fully believe from the text in the email that you got a discounted 1Ghz Pandora and are still entitled to a refund, despite the fact that the refund would just about cover what you had paid for the upgrade? Such an interpretation would mean that you simply got a free Pandora and I don't think any court in the world would accept that that's what was intended.

Can you stop with the accusations of wrongdoing please

Woah, slow down there. No one has accused you (I'm assuming that's what you're getting up about) of wrong doing. I'm saying that further action to reclaim refunds after having already paid the upgrade, while not necessarily wrong, are pointless: when it reaches investigation they will come to the same conclusion that I've already stated, that the upgrade was an agreement between OP LTD, OP Gmbh, and the customers to supplant the original contract, and that having accepted it OP Ltd doesn't actually owe you anything. Craig still owes about 500 people something, however, and the few of those people that have already sent in emails are more than sufficient to prevent the strike off from occurring. I'm saying you've done your job, relax, just sit back and wait it out now; claiming refunds when the conclusion will be that no refund is owed will only slow down the investigation when it comes.

 

[stuart]

I don't think we understand each other. I got one email referring to a survey, I wasn't sure if this was an agreement to upgrade or just an information gathering excersise. It wasn't clear. A LOT later I get an email from ED with a discount voucher I later learnt was coming from donations. I had assumed that my original money was being passed over to ED, not that I was getting a discount voucher based on donations.

When I had some time to look further into it, it turns our that even with the discount the total I'd be paying would be a lot more than a new customer. 

Anyway - its done now. I issued a challenge through the court and OPL have admitted full liability for the money owed and I've received most of it back as a refund.

Honestly I didn't think this would happen - I was mostly exploring various actions to test the water for others and I used the voucher form the donation fund before I got the refund. When I did get the refund through most of it went back to the donation fund.

So in the end I did take advantage of the donation fund, but when my refund came I GAVE IT BACK PLUS SOME.

TELL ME WHAT I'VE DONE WRONG!!!

I'm sorry if not everyone agrees with my actions but there's not a lot I can do about it now.

 

[WizardStan]

TELL ME WHAT I'VE DONE WRONG!!!

TELL ME WHERE I SAID YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG!!!

 

[stuart]

accused me of not understanding information that simply wasnt there, accused me of misrepresenting the situation to my legal advisor. I wasnt ether trying to get a free pandora.

 

[stuart]

oh and breech of contract

 

[WizardStan]

accused me of not understanding information that simply wasnt there, accused me of misrepresenting the situation to my legal advisor. I wasnt ether trying to get a free pandora.

Misunderstandings are not wrongdoings.

oh and breech of contract

You might very well be, but it's irrelevant, it would have been accidental anyway through misunderstanding and the worst that would happen is you'd have to return the refund.

 

[stuart]

Got this in April.

Hello,

First of all, sorry for the fact you still don't have your Pandora

And thanks a lot for your ongoing support, it's really appreciated and

we hope we will be able to reward that soon.

Please read this eMail carefully - as it links to a survey you have to

fill out.

If you haven't followed the full story during the last four years, you

can find a brief summary here:

http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php/page/articles.html/_/general-information/the-history-of-the-pandora-r57

Basically, besides all the delays where some were caused by us being

inexperienced and some because companies didn't give us a high

priority, the biggest issue was the PCB production company in Texas

which managed to break over 1000 PCBs... parts worth more than 300,000

EUR were lost with that. A crushing blow, especially for a small group

like ourselves...

Since then the production has been moved to Germany, everything is going

smoothly now. Things have been moving forward quite a lot during the

last year, and while we're regularly delivering units to our longtime

customers, we'd love to be able to speed up the whole process so you

can get your Pandora as fast as possible.

Production is fast enough to deliver all remaining units within

one week - the only thing preventing us from doing that is money. Right

now, we're using all the profit from new sales to ship out the

remaining preorders, as well as donations from forum members.

However, there are other ways to speed up the delivery of the remaining

units, and this is what we now want to do. It's already possible for

every preorderer to update to an instantly delivered 1GHz unit for

production costs price, which is 270 EUR (excl. VAT) Based on the

feedback we got from some of you, there's a general interest to upgrade

to the 1GHz Pandora, however, the price is too high for most of you.

That's why we want to try to give you a better offer.

To be able to do that, we have to gather accurate statistics, so

please fill out the following survey. It will help us create a

well-thought out plan for the delivery of the remaining units.

Important (in case you want to upgrade):

You will NOT have to make any payment before your unit is ready to be

shipped! We will notify as soon as it's ready and will send you a

voucher. You can then use the voucher at EvilDragons Shop

(www.dragonbox.de) and the Pandora will be shipped right away, without

any further waiting.

And of course: I know everyone would love to get the upgrade as cheap

as possible. However, every EUR we get more significantly speeds up the

delivery of the remaining units. So please don't simply select the

cheapest option, but think about it and choose the one you REALLY would

be fine with.

Thanks a lot for your patience and support - without the support of the

community, we would've given up a long time ago, but we want this to work

and for you to receive your Pandora.

Even today it is still a totally unique machine and offers amazing, heavly

optimised performance, the latest emulator releases include an NDS emulatior!

Please visit this URL and complete the form:

http://craig.gp2x.de/cgi-bin/opsurvey.pl?stuart@goodsounds.co.uk

Thanks,

OpenPandora Team.

Then nothing for 6 months. 

Then this in October:

Hi,

the community has already raised an impressive amount of donations,

trying to help YOU to get your unit.

As you mentioned on the survey that you would be fine getting a 1GHz

unit for 200 EUR upgrade fee, you will now receive your voucher so you

can order it.

Right now, the Pandora is not on stock, but we're working on getting

them back on stock as soon as possible (hopefully during the next week).

The vouchers are valid for a year, so you can order whenever you like

and have the money ready.

And don't worry - no more payment upfront anymore.

When they're on stock and you can order them, they'll ship right away

Here are the vouchers for you:

If you are living within the EU: 

1GHz for 200 EUR (+VAT): 200EU

1GHz for 200 EUR: 200NONEU

How to use them:

Go here:

https://www.dragonbox.de/en/main-consoles-and-upgrades/112-pandora-1ghz.html

Put the Pandora into your basket (configure it the way you like).

You can also add any other items you like from the shop as well.

On the last checkout page (where you select your payment method, etc.),

use the voucher you like. Each order will be checked before shipped to

check it's valid.

-- 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Michael Mrozek

-----------------------

OpenPandora GmbH

Geschäftsführer: Michael Mrozek

I did not proceed with using this voucher. The email above was the first I knew of the reliance of donations and I felt that was wrong considering I'd already paid someone. 

There is no implication of any contract, at least it wasn't clear to myself or my legal guy. 

Anyway - I challenged it and OpenPandora admitted full liability to the courts on friday, if I had electronically changed my contract with OPL they would not have done this.

 

[stuart]

I only went ahead and used the voucher after I got the strike off email from OPL and it seemed the only way to resolve it. I used the voucher after I initiated legal proceedings. If I'd had any idea they would agree to a refund I wouldn't have used the voucher but I was sure it wouldn't come to anything. 

There seems to be hostility here that is unwarranted. I never visited these forums, the only updates I had were my conversations with OPL and these two emails.

Really? You fully believe from the text in the email that you got a discounted 1Ghz Pandora and are still entitled to a refund, despite the fact that the refund would just about cover what you had paid for the upgrade? Such an interpretation would mean that you simply got a free Pandora and I don't think any court in the world would accept that that's what was intended.

Sorry but I find this tone quite confrontational. My legal reps, and OPL have agreed that I was entitled to a refund and my court case is settled, but you still think its wrong?

 

[WizardStan]

Sorry but I find this tone quite confrontational.

That's because it was, it absolutely had to be. You made a statement that I find difficult to believe as true. It is impossible to question your (or any) statement without being confrontational. The very nature of simply asking for clarification is confrontational. The only way I could have not sounded confrontational was to agree with you entirely and I don't. This should not be an issue, the fact that one of us is wrong requires confrontation to sort it out but it does not require the level of defensiveness you're showing.

My legal reps, and OPL have agreed that I was entitled to a refund and my court case is settled, but you still think its wrong?

I don't think it's right, no. You paid money for a Pandora, then you paid additional money for the upgrade, then you got a refund of approximately what you paid for the upgrade: the net is a free Pandora.The email makes it very clear that the upgrade to 1Ghz is "to speed up the delivery of your Pandora". You could have continued to wait, but you paid the upgrade fee as per the agreement and got a 1Ghz Pandora.

If your legal reps read this section:

However, there are other ways to speed up the delivery of the remaining units, and this is what we now want to do. It's already possible for every preorderer to update to an instantly delivered 1GHz unit for production costs price, which is 270 EUR

and did not understand that "speeding up delivery" and "updating to an instantly delivered 1GHz" are directly connected then I don't know what to tell you. They clearly are related, one sentence immediately following the other in a single paragraph: by updating to an instantly delivered 1Ghz unit you are speeding up delivery of your unit. It's pretty clear that it means the 1Ghz is meant to replace your original pre-order, not that you will also get your original pre-order in addition to the 1Ghz you upgraded to.

 

[vcoleiro1]

It's been so long know I don't remember, how much was a Pre-order Pandora originally ?

 

[smcc]

Anyway - I challenged it and OpenPandora admitted full liability to the courts on friday, if I had electronically changed my contract with OPL they would not have done this.

Sorry if I missed this in another thread ... but can you say any more on the court appearance?

Did OPL actually have legal representation there or did they not bother to turn up and the court found in your favour in their absence?

I'm sure knowing more detail on this would give encouragement to Craig's pre-orderers

 

[WizardStan]

It's been so long know I don't remember, how much was a Pre-order Pandora originally ?

$330 back in October 2008.

 

[stuart]

I didn't pay an upgrade. 

I purchased a pandora from DragonBox with discount provided by the donation fund.

Reference

Product

Unit price

Quantity

Total price

PND-CUSTOM

Pandora Handheld

Available

447,90 €

1

447,90 €

Voucher name: Pandora Cross Upgrade

-261,00 €

Products

447,90 €

Discounts

-261,00 €

Gift-wrapping

0,00 €

Shipping

18,70 €

 

Total paid

205,60 €

I paid £273.40 originally, then an extra 200 Euros. This totals to more than the full retail price of the 1GHZ Pandora. The prices are less because I am VAT registered so I didn't pay the german VAT element.

I reversed the voucher by putting the $261 discount, which came from the donator fund, back into the donator fund plus some extra to support the project.

How do you work out that I got a free pandora. 

 

[stuart]

However, there are other ways to speed up the delivery of the remaining units, and this is what we now want to do. It's already possible for every preorderer to update to an instantly delivered 1GHz unit for production costs price, which is 270 EUR

and did not understand that "speeding up delivery" and "updating to an instantly delivered 1GHz" are directly connected then I don't know what to tell you. They clearly are related, one sentence immediately following the other in a single paragraph: by updating to an instantly delivered 1Ghz unit you are speeding up delivery of your unit. It's pretty clear that it means the 1Ghz is meant to replace your original pre-order, not that you will also get your original pre-order in addition to the 1Ghz you upgraded to.

I did not do this - I waited for another 6 months after this email.

 

[vcoleiro1]

Stuart, a lot of pre orderers really appreciate learning about their legal avenues available to them . Please don't be put off by some commenters. This is the Pandora forum after all, to be quite frank , it would be a rare occurance if someone were to say they liked the color red without someone objecting

 

[WizardStan]

Not really feeling like sharing any more info if it just leads to attacks.

Seriously dude? You think I'm attacking you? Suggesting that you are wrong is not an attack. What a terrible world it would be every time someone was wrong they took it personally. No one would learn anything.Trust me, I would LOVE for you to be right and for me to be wrong. That would mean that Craig still owes me a Pandora or $330. I just cannot see the logic. The emails lay out exactly what the discount/upgrade is intended for, I can't see how any legal representative can suggest otherwise.

I'm being attacked for being immoral

These are your words. I have not said anything that should have even remotely suggested anything even close to immorality on your part. I said I think you are wrong, incorrect, or simply misunderstanding. Being incorrect about something is not an admission of guilt, not understanding something is not something to be ashamed of, being wrong should not be defended against tooth and nail. There are no attacks on your person being made, there is no need for you to be defensive about this. If you are mistaken and you should not have been issued a refund then whoopdy freakin' doo, it doesn't make you a bad person. If you are correct and every single person that followed through on the upgrade path is still owed a refund by Craig then that changes everything, but in order to reach one conclusion or the other you need to stop being so defensive and work with me here.