Openpandora Ltd (UK) Struck off email

[comradekingu]

Wizardstan 

ED taking over the order would mean he is legally liable to provide it, that is not the case.  What you do as a customer of openpandora ltd has no bearing on the goodwill of ED.

EDs goodwill is of the nature that it doesnt even legally nullify (for op ltd) the orders he delivers subsidized (from his company being op GmbH).

 

[stuart]

Well - As WS pointed out, certain upgrade paths were offered with the condition that the order with Craig was considered fulfilled. This stipulation did not apply to donator funded subsides though.

Legally its challengeable I'd think - but then most things are. Wouldn't want to though and don't see why anyone else would.

 

[WizardStan]

Chill the f@ck out. Tell me, what makes you more authoritative on the subject than the lawyer Stuart spoke to? Are you just another armchair lawyer emboldened by the internet or do you have a real reason to question what Stuart has said?

To be fair, I'm not the one getting defensive here. Like I said, I *want* to be wrong, it would change everything. I am laying out my reasoning, point by point, for why I think Stuart has misunderstood something and am waiting for someone to tell me where exactly I'm unquestionably wrong. So far it's amounted to being accused of attacks, as if being wrong is some godawful sin.Nothing makes me more authoritative than the lawyer (or legal representative, as Stuart said, which is not necessarily a lawyer), except that the representative in question would be looking out for one person and could have easily have filed regardless of whether they thought it would be worth it or not, because hey, they get paid either way and then they're done with it. I, on the other hand, don't want to see the inevitable investigation bogged down by $100'000 worth of refunds that should have been considered fulfilled.

This isn't the only time I've seen WizardStan getting on his high horse like this.

Indeed, heaven forbid I should attempt to question someone giving what seems to be bad advice and try to understand why they think it is good advice. Shame on me for wanting to keep things as organized as possible so that whatever refunds there may be can be processed as smoothly as possible. (Now I'm getting defensive: "high horse" has traditionally negative connotations and I can't see any way of this being taken as anything other than a personal attack. Feel free to correct me if that's not how it was intended though, I love to be proven wrong.)

only option out of the 3 which does not stipulate that the order with Craig is satisfied

It shouldn't have to explicitly state it, the entire email implies that whatever you choose is how your order will be fulfilled, including doing nothing, if it is to ever be fulfilled at all. This was an agreement reached between EvilDragon and Craig.

ED taking over the order would mean he is legally liable to provide it, that is not the case.

I never said he was taking over the orders entirely, simply that it is an agreement between EvilDragon and Craig that ED would attempt to fulfil the remainder of Craig's queue.

EDs goodwill is of the nature that it doesnt even legally nullify (for op ltd) the orders he delivers subsidized (from his company being op GmbH)

And I would love to believe that is true but I can't see how it can be. You paid Craig for a Pandora. Craig couldn't deliver. EvilDragon says "hey Craig, I will deliver a Pandora on your behalf, from my own profits and community donations". Pandora is delivered. It doesn't matter where it came from, it seems to me that your contract has been fulfilled on receipt of the Pandora.Consider this analogy: You loan me $20. I loan Stuart $20. I then say "hey Stuart, instead of paying me back, just give the $20 directly to comradekingu". He agrees, gives you the $20 and says "here, from WS". You then come to me and demand your $20 back.

It'd be one thing if you had no idea what the $20 was for, but it's made pretty clear that it is supposed to be my repayment through a different channel.

So to, if it were ambiguous where the Pandora came from I'd be willing to accept what Stuart says as gospel truth, but I cannot believe that someone would just legitimately think "oh hey, free Pandora. I wonder where that one that I ordered went". There has to be something going on here that he's not told us.

edit: and just so there's no further accusations, I'm not suggesting he is intentionally withholding information either, it could be something that even he is not aware of, something that happened elsewhere. Could have been someone in the court system made a mistake, or it was a default judgement, or anything, or I could even be completely wrong and having someone else to deliver your debt is simply not a contract that can be created (as a few of such cases exist).

 

[stuart]

It shouldn't have to explicitly state it, the entire email implies that whatever you choose is how your order will be fulfilled, including doing nothing, if it is to ever be fulfilled at all. This was an agreement reached between EvilDragon and Craig.

OK - The upgrade paths (options 1 and 2) are entirely different from option 3 which didn't even guarantee you a pandora.

At the time I started legal action I had not chosen ether of these options. I did not take an upgrade path, I used the donation fund when I thought I'd never get a refund but when I got one I gave it back. 

What exactly am I not telling you? And what bad advice have I given? All I've done is come on here and share my thoughts, and the various results I personally got.

 

[WizardStan]

I didn't choose anything

And I'm saying you shouldn't have had to. Pandora was delivered, it is stated that EvilDragon is working to fulfil Craig's pre-order queue on his behalf. You received a Pandora. It did not just magically appear out of nowhere, you're expected to assume that it is the fulfilment of the original contract. Or did you believe that you got a Pandora entirely free of charge with no strings attached?

 

[stuart]

I didn't receive a pandora until after I started legal action, I've only had one about a week.

How would I have believed that it was free of charge? I ordered it and paid for it, full retail price from DragonBox. 

 

[WizardStan]

How would I have believed that it was free of charge? I ordered it and paid for it, full retail price from DragonBox

Ok, I am extremely confused. I apologize. First I thought you had taken the donation/profit assisted discounted rate to upgrade your order to a 1GHz Pandora. Then I thought you meant you waited and it was simply delivered. In both cases, I understood the refund to have been requested after receiving it.If you ordered it from EvilDragon and paid full retail price then it really did have absolutely nothing to do with your original pre-order and nothing I've said applies to your situation at all. I'm sorry, I completely misunderstood what it was you did.

 

[stuart]

I tried to explain. I only ordered the pandora a week or so ago. I had already started trying to get a refund and and, after coming on here and reading up I assumed I'd never get one. So I ordered the pandora from DragonBox and used the code to get a discount from the donation fund. 

When the refund did come through, I gave that discount back to where it came from. ED explained to me earlier in this thread when I was trying to figure it all out, the donation fund coupons were nothing to do with Craig at all.

 

[comradekingu]

 

only option out of the 3 which does not stipulate that the order with Craig is satisfied

It shouldn't have to explicitly state it, the entire email implies that whatever you choose is how your order will be fulfilled, including doing nothing, if it is to ever be fulfilled at all. This was an agreement reached between EvilDragon and Craig.

ED taking over the order would mean he is legally liable to provide it, that is not the case.

I never said he was taking over the orders entirely, simply that it is an agreement between EvilDragon and Craig that ED would attempt to fulfil the remainder of Craig's queue.

EDs goodwill is of the nature that it doesnt even legally nullify (for op ltd) the orders he delivers subsidized (from his company being op GmbH)

And I would love to believe that is true but I can't see how it can be. You paid Craig for a Pandora. Craig couldn't deliver. EvilDragon says "hey Craig, I will deliver a Pandora on your behalf, from my own profits and community donations". Pandora is delivered. It doesn't matter where it came from, it seems to me that your contract has been fulfilled on receipt of the Pandora.

For a variation over what you think should be the case, and find "implied" the legal matter is between the customer and whoever has the liability to provide the goods, which is craig. ED is covered legally, and has not taken on debt.

May i ask where you got that quote from? ED is delivering goods on his own behalf. Craig agreed in the end to share some of his details pending the craig preorders to actually comply to an email, nothing more.  Its an agreement between ED and the customer of Craig. It does nothing to change what is established here, which is that preorderers have outstanding liabilities with craig, at openpandora ltd.

As such, its your bidding to prove otherwise. Legal evidence thereof.

Edit: I ran out of upvotes in reading stuarts posts.

 

[BeefJerky]

WizardStan, whether you intend it or not, you have come across incredibly antagonistic over the last two pages and it doesn't feel warranted in any way especially given there was no 'free Pandora' and Stuart had made that very clear from the outset. Anyone who originally preordered and then actually pays for ED's Pandoras has paid twice. A refund on the original preorder would not result in a 'free Pandora'.

 

[mcobit]

He just wanted to point out that if the communitydonations were used to (partly) fund his purchase, those are given to him for free, if he gets a refund. No harm done as he donated the money back what I think is very generous.

 

[Rockthesmurf]

I'd be interested to know the number of people who have actually written to Craig/Companies house requesting a refund/Pandora and the number of people who have been successful! There is this sense from the forums that not so many people are actually bothering making a legal dispute, but those that are are somehow getting money back (whether is it via small claims court, Google refunding, or other means), however maybe there are lots more people sending legal paperwork that haven't made it public (or maybe I have just missed there posts).

 

[ElPoco]

My complaint to the ECC went to the UK ECC, and now I'm waiting for an update.

 

[moxie]

And WizardStan questioned what Stuart said exactly where, If I may?

And WizardStan adviced Stuart to do something else exactly where?

Still can't read.

 Mate, you're the one with a reading comprehension problem here. Reread WizardStan's posts and mine. If you can't work it out you're beyond my help. 

Shouldn't you be off somewhere chastising people for criticizing Craig?

 Reading, again. Show me where I am "chastising people for criticizing Craig". Make sure you're not mistaking it for " chastising people for writing stuff that'll get the server owner in trouble". 

 

[BeefJerky]

My complaint to the ECC went to the UK ECC, and now I'm waiting for an update.

Yep, I have a complaint in with ECC, tried (unsuccessfully) to open a dispute with Google Wallet, have applied for a chargeback on my credit card (no idea how that will go) and also mailed Craig of course requesting a refund. I have to hand it to Stuart - I may not have even bothered if he had not been going through his steps showing me that, actually, it's very much worth doing. Whether I get a refund or not, I want the matter examined as fully as possible by all relevant authorities.

 

[_wb_]

Wow, I hadn't looked at this thread for a while and it has exploded a bit.

Interesting stuff though - just too much meta-bickering obfuscating the discussion.

I think it is Craig's responsibility (or rather that of OpenPandora Ltd.) to make sure that when a cross-update happens (however it is funded, ED's goodwill, community donations, whatever), he has some kind of legal evidence that his customer is now no longer expecting a delivery or a refund. Just like when he pays out a refund or ships a unit, he better has some kind of proof that he has done that - otherwise anyone can just claim to never have received the money or the device.

It looks like Craig screwed that up in at least one instance (Stuart Fox).

ED and the community are free to give discounts or free units to anyone they want, including Craig's customers. The fact that this happened was very fortunate for Craig, because it was a good opportunity to reduce his remaining queue. But if he neglected to make sure that each of these so-called "upgrades" actually let him and his company "off the hook", then that's his problem. If you ask me, it's very stupid to let such an opportunity slide away like that, but still it seems to be what has happened (at least in one instance).
 

As long as everyone reacts in the same way as Stuart (getting the refund, getting the unit with the discount, donating back to the preorder fund), this is actually a good thing - people get their Pandora, the preorder fund is not harmed, OP Ltd pays what it had to pay anyway, and OP GmbH sells a unit at normal price. I wish this could be generalized! (that is probably not going to work though; OP Ltd will probably declare bankruptcy at some point - so go for it now, before it's too late!).

 

[kasp]

Well it's extremely interesting the whole option mess and in my opinion it doesn't really absolve Craig of his order responsibilities even if people take up the upgrade options.  It just is not good enough to say if someone takes up this option by email Craig's responsibility is absolved.  There needs to be some form of agreement and well a customer buying something from another retailer doesn't cut it.

Things like this have happened before where one company has folded and another company has offered a discount for the customers who got screwed around and this scenario is no way different from that. The folding company isn't absolved of it's order commitments just as the new company has no responsibility for the old orders either.  

ED with zero payment from Craig or his company is supplying a good and receiving money for it so it really is more like a completely separate transaction that is discounted rather than an upgrade. ED would be foolish to enter an arrangement which would make his company liable for Craig's orders so you can pretty much count that out.  So ED is more like doing a favor for the people Craig screwed over rather than being responsible for Craig's outstanding orders.

So while it may be implied using ED's option will fulfill the order with Craig I really doubt it would hold up to scrutiny and would be extremely difficult for Craig to argue.

Also I wonder if ED has applied against having openpandora UK struck off?  Surely Craig's Debts to ED would kill that process entirely?

 

[EvilDragon]

As long as everyone reacts in the same way as Stuart (getting the refund, getting the unit with the discount, donating back to the preorder fund), this is actually a good thing - people get their Pandora, the preorder fund is not harmed, OP Ltd pays what it had to pay anyway, and OP GmbH sells a unit at normal price. I wish this could be generalized! (that is probably not going to work though; OP Ltd will probably declare bankruptcy at some point - so go for it now, before it's too late!).

No, I'm still selling the unit for production costs, not for a normal price.

The community donations help those who cannot afford the unit for the production costs.

So in this case, only the community donations are going back, not the profit I'm giving here for free.

 

[WizardStan]

May i ask where you got that quote from?

Now that's an interesting point. It's heavily implied, EvilDragon has been saying repeatedly that he's helping take care of Craig's pre-order and Craig seems to be aware of this (to the point where he fully believes that EvilDragon agreed to take on the responsibility entirely and not just as much as possible) and every correspondence has said something to the effect of "the only way to get your Pandora is through the discount purchase at DragonBox" but has he ever actually stated that it was a definitive agreement between them that such a purchase was meant to supplant the original pre-order? Did they discuss it like this or did they come to separate conclusions based on the same train of thought?I mean yes, it is heavily implied that that's EvilDragon's intention, but unless he actually came to that agreement with Craig and made that agreement known it isn't a contract between them, it's just a guy trying to do something individually. If that really is the case then every single person who followed the upgrade path is still legally owed a Pandora or a refund from OP Ltd. I'm not convinced that ED would just up and start doing this without discussing it with Craig (remember, back when it was first proposed so long ago they were still fairly amicable with each other, Craig wasn't a complete lying jerk he had just had some troubles and bit off more than he could chew) and I believe that the evidence for that discussion has to exist somewhere in this forum, but it would be from over a year ago and I don't have the desire to go looking for it. At the same time the very real possibility exists that I'm wrong. I don't like not knowing for sure, but the effort required to find what may or may not exist is greater than the knowledge to be gained. So I'm going to stop discouraging people from pushing for refunds in this scenario. If you have received an upgraded Pandora via donation and/or discount by all means file with whomever it is that we're supposed to and let the investigators sort through the chaos; at best you will get your refund (either by accident or design), at worst it will be added to the work the investigators need to do when OP Ltd goes into liquidation and all it will cost is time (and the $25 required to file the claim against him).

edit: or we can just ask ED directly.

Question to EvilDragon: when someone follows through with the discount upgrade, is that actually meant to supplant Craig's original pre-order? Not just because you want to do "the right thing", but did you actually reach this agreement with Craig and broadcast that agreement somewhere?

 

[stuart]

So in this case, only the community donations are going back, not the profit I'm giving here for free.

I'm sorry - I didn't realise that this was production cost less the donation. If you PM me with the profit margin you would have added to my order then I'll happily pay it. As I've said - I always wanted to support the Pandora, I just disagree strongly with the way certain things have been handled.

I don't want any more arguments, I've already had enough stress attached to this thing. I did consider just leaving the forums but I started this action, in part to share the results with others, so I'll try once more to do this.

Just to be clear, when the strike off email came, I did not have a pandora or a refund and I had never opted for any upgrade route offered.

OPL had always made it clear that I could just carry on waiting, and a refund would always be an option so I waited.

When the strike off email came, it was a shock to me, and I started efforts to get a refund that very day. At this point I still had no Pandora or refund.

I started the court case a few days later, mainly to give companies house a solid reason to suspend the strike off, as at that point no one had complained or objected at all. Also I felt it would be good to test the water and see what happened.

On further reading, it was clear to me that I'd not get a refund so I placed a new pandora in my basked at dragonbox.com. Since I could not afford to pay effectively for two pandoras, I used a coupon which gave me a discount funded entirely by the donation fund. ED had told me in this thread that this was entirely separate from my preorder with Craig. You must understand that at this point - I honestly thought I'd never get a refund otherwise I'd not have used the damn coupon.

A little while after I got my Pandora a refund actually materialised form google wallet. They made it clear that they would take that refund back from me if Open Pandora Ltd objected. I've heard nothing more. I still don't know exactly how or why google wallet refunded me.

As soon as it was clear I was actually getting some money back, I paid what I 'borrowed' from the donator fund back, with a little extra. 

In the mean time, my county court case is settled, OPL have not disputed the claim and admit liability, however I've found out today (because the copies of the paperwork came this-morning) that they've attached a note saying :

"Dear Sirs,

It is with regret that we are unable to make an offer of payment due to the company having no funds.

OpenPandora Ltd is no longer trading.

The company applied to be struck off on the 8 November 2013

Yours Faithfully,

CJV Rothewll"

This is where I get even more confused about where my refund from google came from.

Anyway, OPL legally owe me the grand sum of £25. I will explain my options, not because I am considering them but for the benefit of others who may be interested.

• If OPL don't directly dispute the claim of money then they are deemed liable my money claim online.
• When the debt is admitted or 14 days has passed since the claim was issued, a judgment can be requested.
• In my case, if I issued a judgment based on admission which I can do now, I will obtain a County Court Judgment (CCJ) against OPL.
• You will get the option to set out a payment demand. This could be full payment right away, or instalments.
• If OPL still hasn't paid (remember, companies house will continue to suspend the strike off while any efforts to recover debt are being made and evidenced) then there are further options:
• Standard County Court Enforcement: For an additional fee of £100, which is added to the amount OPL would owe, court bailiffs would attend the registered business address to cease goods belonging to OPL. If they find any evidence of OPL stock or property, such as a vehicle registered to OPL or manufacturing equipment, they can cease this property.
• If they do not find any clear evidence of trade or property belonging to OPL then they will leave empty handed and you would, at this point be down £100 plus the original court fees of £25. You would have a CCJ against OPL and could, possibly continue to present this to companies house to suspend the strike off.

At this point - I don't think its likely that any more refunds will happen. I'm going to go ahead and obtain a CCJ against OPL, just so that I can send it to companies house, but I won't be using the further options.

I have misunderstood a few things, I've only been active here a short time and I really didn't understand what the hell was going on before the strike off email, so apologies for any misunderstandings. As I've said before - if you are considering action, and you still don't have a pandora or refund and you're not in the UK, I may be willing to help with a correspondence address. I've checked with the courts and its perfectly ok for me to offer to do this. PM me.