Openpandora Ltd (UK) Struck off email

[stuart]

I waited 'til the strike off email taking no action and not opting for any upgrade path, I did this to support OPL as best I could.

After the strike off email and subsequent explanations here it was clear that OPL were never going to help any more pre orderers.

This is when I started legal action. At this point I had not agreed to anything - no upgrade or use of any voucher.

When ED explained to me in this thread that the discount voucher came from the donator fund - I thought I'd use it so I could afford a pandora, thinking that I wouldn't ever get a refund.

If I did get a refund I'd give the voucher money back.

I checked here before I did this and no one objected.

I used a voucher, then when I got a refund I gave it back and some extra.

Don't see why this is causing so much agro.

 

[stuart]

I didn't opt for any upgrade path. The option is listed in this email but I didn't take it.

 

[levi]

I must say it's refreshing to hear Stuart's point of view. I can quite see now how the wording changed between the old 'upgrade' meaning to the new 'cheap pandora' sense, which I didn't see at the time following the news day to day.

I still tend to think that the change of tone was accidental, and the intention was to get you your pandora which would let Craig off the hook for that unit, but I agree that I only get that sense from taking that email in the context of all the history that was not available to Stuart.

I think that whether he got a cheap Pandora or not, that he's donated the difference back to the community speaks volumes.

Still, I was in line with Stan until Stuart's post #386. It did seem a little fishy until I got to see Stuart's perspective from outside the boards. Seems to me now you're mainly arguing about the meta-argument now anyway, so hopefully this will just boil over soon.

 

[vcoleiro1]

Anyway - I challenged it and OpenPandora admitted full liability to the courts on friday, if I had electronically changed my contract with OPL they would not have done this.

Sorry if I missed this in another thread ... but can you say any more on the court appearance?


Did OPL actually have legal representation there or did they not bother to turn up and the court found in your favour in their absence?


I'm sure knowing more detail on this would give encouragement to Craig's pre-orderers

Stuart,


As per above , if you could share some info on on the court appearance as per smcc questions, that would be greatly appreciated.

 

[stuart]

As far as I understood it - that email offered a number of options including waiting. I did not follow up any option so I didn't think I was tied to anything. I just waited. I had a voucher 6 months later but when I learnt that this voucher deducted from a donation fund, not from my original money paid I was uncomfortable using it so I waited and I agonised a little on how best to resolve it. It had been causing stress.

I only used the voucher after the strike off email came as I figured this was the only way I was going to get a pandora. As it was, even with the voucher I paid over the retail price for the unit which I felt was unfair - so when, to my surprise I must add, it looked like I was getting a refund, I reversed the voucher I used. 

So - I ended up paying what a new customer would have paid, and I got my unit. I didn't go for an upgrade path, at least not knowingly.

I understand it like this - I took 261 euros from the donator fund by entering a voucher code in my shopping cart. 

I reversed the use of this voucher by putting the money back.

 

[Esn]

I'm surprised that no-one has noted that £135 740 at a conversion rate of $1.54 : £1 is $209 100

Not that I'm suggesting anything but is it possible that OpenPandora subsumed the liability for delivering the iControlPad-2 but any related money passed straight through the company so didn't end up on the bottom line.

What would be the benefit to Craig if he did that?

 

[ramboky]

@WizardStan Chill the f@ck out. Tell me, what makes you more authoritative on the subject than the lawyer Stuart spoke to? Are you just another armchair lawyer emboldened by the internet or do you have a real reason to question what Stuart has said?

@Stuart This isn't the only time I've seen WizardStan getting on his high horse like this. From what you've posted there's nothing wrong with your actions. And it's probably needless to say this, but take the advice of your lawyers rather than some stranger ranting on a forum. There are far too many here who think they're experts on subjects they're really not in a position to speak on.

 

[stuart]

RE the court action - there was no appearance or anything as dramatic as that.

I simply issued a claim via the UK 'small claims court'. This is all done online.

You submit your case, it is presented to the defendant and they have 14 days to respond. The fee is £25.

The main advantage is a pending court action is a sure fire way to have companies house suspend the strike off.

The case was presented to OpenPandora on the 20th of last month. Shortly after this I received most of the refund via google wallet, the merchant I paid with, then openpandora ltd responded to the court on Friday agreeing with my case and accepting full liability for the amount I'd claimed. So the case is closed in my favour.

I could now enforce that case but since I already have most of the amount back there's no need. There's a small amount outstanding though which I will use in February to justify another suspension of the strike off action if its not settled before then.

There was nothing as exciting as an appearance, its all done online for anything up to 10k. Judgments are also usually made online for small amounts. 

I did make an enquiry on behalf of anyone wanting to make an online claim from outside the UK. You can do this but you need a contact address in the UK. This doesn't need to be your own address, simply a place for the physical papers to land.

If anyone wants to go this way, I may be willing to help with the use of a UK address if you PM me. 

 

[stuart]

Ugh - A whole evening arguing on a forum. What's become of my life!

 

[moxie]

I waited 'til the strike off email taking no action and not opting for any upgrade path, I did this to support OPL as best I could.

After the strike off email and subsequent explanations here it was clear that OPL were never going to help any more pre orderers.

This is when I started legal action. At this point I had not agreed to anything - no upgrade or use of any voucher.

When ED explained to me in this thread that the discount voucher came from the donator fund - I thought I'd use it so I could afford a pandora, thinking that I wouldn't ever get a refund.

If I did get a refund I'd give the voucher money back.

I checked here before I did this and no one objected.

I used a voucher, then when I got a refund I gave it back and some extra.

Don't see why this is causing so much agro.

With all due respect: Listen to what WizardStan is saying here. There is no "aggro". There is just a, possibly very directly worded but still, desire to figure stuff out. You are not being accused of either immorality or wrongdoing. Nobody is objecting. What is being questioned is the legal interpretation of the emails in question, not you or your character. Calm down a bit.

 

[stuart]

The emails offered upgrade paths which I did not take! So I didn't think the wording mattered.

 

[moxie]

No, that is clear now  As I (and WS) said - Nobody is accusing you. We are/were a bit astounded at the legal reps interpretation, but with the context it is not so strange

 

[moxie]

@WizardStan Chill the f@ck out. Tell me, what makes you more authoritative on the subject than the lawyer Stuart spoke to? Are you just another armchair lawyer emboldened by the internet or do you have a real reason to question what Stuart has said?

And WizardStan questioned what Stuart said exactly where, If I may?

@Stuart This isn't the only time I've seen WizardStan getting on his high horse like this. From what you've posted there's nothing wrong with your actions. And it's probably needless to say this, but take the advice of your lawyers rather than some stranger ranting on a forum. There are far too many here who think they're experts on subjects they're really not in a position to speak on.

And WizardStan adviced Stuart to do something else exactly where?

Still can't read.

 

[stuart]

Its a complicated situation to explain at the best of times, but the words were that "I can't have explained it well" which I'm afraid I found insulting.

I understand that without all the facts people jump to conclusions - I'm just surprised at the division in this thread.

I was up front about what I didn't understand about this whole thing - thats why I became active on the forum. I really had no idea what was going on and, just based on the emails the whole thing is very confusing. Someone saw my Pandora last weekend - said, 'wow, is that the thing that you bought years ago - how did you finally get it'..... I tried to explain - it wasn't easy.

I think people who've had time to visit the forums every week take a lot of the info for granted.

 

[HelenF]

Looks like the email people are thinking of is "OpenPandora After-Survey Information" on Sept 7th, which you don't seem to have got. The October email with the 200 EUR voucher has much of the same content, but it doesn't include the line in question.

You can get a 1GHz Pandora for the reduced price of 300 EUR (excl. VAT) from the DragonBox Shop. You don't have to do it right now, you can do it anytime whenever you like (and if it's in stock)

You will NOT put more money to get on a list where you have to wait. When the Pandora is "in stock" at the DragonBox Shop, it IS in stock and will ship within 1 or 2 days.

Your old order with OpenPandora Ltd. will then count as fulfilled.

You will also get the accessories you ordered (only the official Pandora ones, which means: Carry Case, TV Out Cable, Battery, AC Adaptor).

You will also get a special "Thank You" postcard personally signed by EvilDragon, which will ONLY be available for remaining preorders.

 

[levi]

This is the Pandora forum after all, to be quite frank , it would be a rare occurance if someone were to say they liked the color red without someone objecting

I'll just quote this, as I think it's pertinent. Storm in a teacup, as always.

 

[moxie]

I think people who've had time to visit the forums every week take a lot of the info for granted.

Ayep. Even (as we have seen above) Craig and ED, obviously

 

[stuart]

I've actually found this email.

There are 3 options - the first 2 involve ED selling a pandora at cost and stipulate that the order with Craig is satisfied, but the third option which is in effect the one I took is the only option out of the 3 which does not stipulate that the order with Craig is satisfied. This I assume is because the first 2 options rely on ED selling at cost, and the 3rd option involves a donation from forum members.

Anyway - I didn't act on any of this until after the strike off email, and when I did I used the voucher which was option 3.

1st Option: Get a 1GHz whenever you want for 300 EUR

---------------------------------------------------

You can get a 1GHz Pandora for the reduced price of 300 EUR (excl. VAT) from the DragonBox Shop. You don't have to do it right now, you can do it anytime whenever you like (and if it's in stock)

You will NOT put more money to get on a list where you have to wait. When the Pandora is "in stock" at the DragonBox Shop, it IS in stock and will ship within 1 or 2 days.

Your old order with OpenPandora Ltd. will then count as fulfilled.

You will also get the accessories you ordered (only the official Pandora ones, which means: Carry Case, TV Out Cable, Battery, AC Adaptor).

You will also get a special "Thank You" postcard personally signed by EvilDragon, which will ONLY be available for remaining preorders.

Additionally, you can get a second 1GHz Pandora for the reduced price of 350 EUR (excl. VAT).

Instructions and vouchers for this are at the end of this eMail.

2nd Option: Get a Classic Pandora whenever you want for 100 EUR

---------------------------------------------------------------

You can get a Classic Pandora for the reduced price of 100 EUR (excl. VAT) from the DragonBox Shop. You don't have to do it right now, you can do it anytime whenever you like (and if it's in stock)

You will NOT put more money to get on a list where you have to wait. When the Pandora is "in stock" at the DragonBox Shop, it IS in stock and will ship within 1 or 2 days.

Your old order with OpenPandora Ltd. will then count as fulfilled.

You will also get the accessories you ordered (only the official Pandora ones, which means: Carry Case, TV Out Cable, Battery, AC Adaptor).

You will also get a special "Thank You" postcard personally signed by EvilDragon, which will ONLY be available for remaining preorders.

Additionally, you can get a second 1GHz Pandora for the reduced price of 350 EUR (excl. VAT).

Instructions and vouchers for this are at the end of this eMail.

3rd Option: Stick to what you chose in the survey

-------------------------------------------------

You don't want to put anymore payments into the Pandora, or can't afford the 300 EUR?

I can fully understand that, and a lot of community members understand that as well.

That's why they are donating for you!

The community has already donated over 5000 EUR - more to come.

I've got the results of the survey, so whatever you chose there will be respected, no need to send me an eMail in this case.

If you decide to pay more than you originally chosen, please send an eMail to EvilDragon@openpandora.org to let me know.

While I and the community try to fulfill as many of those orders as possible, I cannot guarantee you will get a Pandora.

This all depends on the donations and the amount you are willing to spend.

You opted for the 200 EUR (excl. VAT) payment.

Please send me an eMail in case that's not true.

 

[ramboky]

And WizardStan questioned what Stuart said exactly where, If I may?

And WizardStan adviced Stuart to do something else exactly where?


Still can't read.

Mate, you're the one with a reading comprehension problem here. Reread WizardStan's posts and mine. If you can't work it out you're beyond my help. 

Shouldn't you be off somewhere chastising people for criticizing Craig?

 

[stuart]

Mate, you're the one with a reading comprehension problem here. Reread WizardStan's posts and mine. If you can't work it out you're beyond my help.    Shouldn't you be off somewhere chastising people for criticizing Craig?

Ah... theres no need for this - all he said was that it was a storm in a teacup based on missunderstandings and such. I'm partly at fault for confusing the set upgrade paths with the donation fund vouchers. The two are completely different with different stipulations attached.

I didn't really know about the former as I never looked into it, seeing as always intended to just wait. 

I really thought that things would just come right, and OPL would start to tick over well and become profitable if we all just hung in there.

I know I know I'm naive.