Openpandora Ltd (UK) Struck off email


Stuart Fox said:
You must understand that at this point - I honestly thought I'd never get a refund otherwise I'd not have used the damn coupon.
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Yes, I apologize again, this was entirely my misunderstanding. I, for some reason, thought you had started the refund process after receiving a Pandora. You may have explicitly said otherwise and I simply missed you saying so. This is why I was so keen to understand what exactly you were doing because it didn't make any sense, and if what I thought you were saying was true then it puts the situation in a far, far worse position than it was.Thankfully I was wrong, the situation for the time being remains as uncomplex as it can be, unless I'm wrong again and ED and Craig didn't actually have such an agreement, then it becomes very bad again.
 
WizardStan said:
Stuart Fox said:
You must understand that at this point - I honestly thought I'd never get a refund otherwise I'd not have used the damn coupon.
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Yes, I apologize again, this was entirely my misunderstanding. I, for some reason, thought you had started the refund process after receiving a Pandora. You may have explicitly said otherwise and I simply missed you saying so. This is why I was so keen to understand what exactly you were doing because it didn't make any sense, and if what I thought you were saying was true then it puts the situation in a far, far worse position than it was.
Thankfully I was wrong, the situation for the time being remains as uncomplex as it can be, unless I'm wrong again and ED and Craig didn't actually have such an agreement, then it becomes very bad again.
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I think ED and Craig has an implied agreement however it is on the basis of anyone who hasn't received a Pandora from Craig can apply for a discount from ED. That is completely different from him taking responsibility for them because if he did that customers could legitimately ask for refunds from ED.  After all while ED is doing the right thing by Craig and his Customers ED has pointed out multiple times he doesn't have to do this which means their is nothing legally binding in place.  It would also be fairly silly for ED's company to agree to take responsibility of Craig's outstanding orders as well.  The number of preorders is still completely unknown if you think about it and you couldn't trust that Craig wouldn't try and pull a fast one with that agreement. 

Now this isn't to say he couldn't argue it but it is an argument I really doubt would hold up to scrutiny.   Essentially his argument boils down to I didn't send them their product but I did however organize a coupon from another company which required them to pay for the unit again.     
 
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WizardStan said:
comradekingu said:
May i ask where you got that quote from?
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Now that's an interesting point. It's heavily implied, EvilDragon has been saying repeatedly that he's helping take care of Craig's pre-order and Craig seems to be aware of this (to the point where he fully believes that EvilDragon agreed to take on the responsibility entirely and not just as much as possible) and every correspondence has said something to the effect of "the only way to get your Pandora is through the discount purchase at DragonBox" but has he ever actually stated that it was a definitive agreement between them that such a purchase was meant to supplant the original pre-order? Did they discuss it like this or did they come to separate conclusions based on the same train of thought?
I mean yes, it is heavily implied that that's EvilDragon's intention, but unless he actually came to that agreement with Craig and made that agreement known it isn't a contract between them, it's just a guy trying to do something individually. If that really is the case then every single person who followed the upgrade path is still legally owed a Pandora or a refund from OP Ltd. I'm not convinced that ED would just up and start doing this without discussing it with Craig (remember, back when it was first proposed so long ago they were still fairly amicable with each other, Craig wasn't a complete lying jerk he had just had some troubles and bit off more than he could chew) and I believe that the evidence for that discussion has to exist somewhere in this forum, but it would be from over a year ago and I don't have the desire to go looking for it. At the same time the very real possibility exists that I'm wrong. I don't like not knowing for sure, but the effort required to find what may or may not exist is greater than the knowledge to be gained. So I'm going to stop discouraging people from pushing for refunds in this scenario. If you have received an upgraded Pandora via donation and/or discount by all means file with whomever it is that we're supposed to and let the investigators sort through the chaos; at best you will get your refund (either by accident or design), at worst it will be added to the work the investigators need to do when OP Ltd goes into liquidation and all it will cost is time (and the $25 required to file the claim against him).


edit: or we can just ask ED directly.


Question to EvilDragon: when someone follows through with the discount upgrade, is that actually meant to supplant Craig's original pre-order? Not just because you want to do "the right thing", but did you actually reach this agreement with Craig and broadcast that agreement somewhere?
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Craig was at the time lying about his preorder queue, not providing numbers, and also pointing to ED, or "we", "the team" for every single mistake he ever made. Amicable was not at all the relationship to craig. Every single person craig owes a pandora or other goods, he owes a pandora, or other goods, including myself. If you trust the word of craig that is somehow EDs fault!? Which is a despicable act of cowardice.
 
ramboky said:
@Stuart It was very clear what you were saying. Any other interpretation was just self-serving. You have nothing to apologize for.
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It wasn't clear to me.

You're one to talk. You have a knack for refusing to see any other points of view.

You on the other hand aren't a particularly flexible individual.

Stuart Fox said:
hedwards said:
It's not ironic, there's always sell outs. I've known plenty of people with bipolar and it's a very different beast from major depression or anxiety. No offense to Stuart, but it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that having one diagnosable mental illness qualifies him to state what somebody with a completely different mental illness can and can't do. As I said previously, I'm not in a position to diagnose Craig, but his behavior patterns would be consistent with what I've seen in people with bipolar.
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I wouldn't dream of professing to know what someone can and can't do with x or y condition and that's not what I meant to do so sorry if it came over like that. All I am saying is that It's not fair to make people feel guilty should they choose to take action after being left out of pocket, based on the possibility that the company director that owes them goods or money might be ill.

I was trying to say, in my own long winded way, that I am very sympathetic to anyone suffering from a mental health issue, but business must be kept separate.
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 My apologies if I misunderstood. The point I was making in that post was that people shouldn't be interpreting what you said in that way. I've got my own serious mental health issues and it gets on my nerves when people interpret what they heard from one individual as if it's relevant to other diagnoses. Most of my issues are the result of having tried to treat me for depression and anxiety that I don't really have in lieu of treatment for conditions that I do have.

Mr_Loon said:
hedwards said:
Craig owes both me and ED some money for the upgrade I had to do to ED's shop in order to get my unit. Consequently if I were to file suit against Craig and win, and if ED were to do the same, Craig would be on the hook for more money than he owes.
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 I can understand this argument in moral terms. But IMHO you have not got a leg to stand on in legal terms, your decision to upgrade via ED and his decision to allow you to do so have nothing whatsoever to do with Craig (in legal terms) as OP Ltd & OP GmbH are totally separate legal entities.

All that Craig owes you is either a refund of your payment to OP Ltd or the goods you ordered and payed for.
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You're right. I'm sorry if I implied that this would have any impact on the legality or illegality of anything that Craig has or hasn't done. Morally and practically it should have an impact, but legally it isn't likely to have an impact. I'm not sure what the law specifically is in the UK, but it would likely be extremely conservative and not provide much protection even in cases where a mental illness really were causing the problems.

The law at present time in most parts of the world assumes that people are more or less neurotypical and fails to factor in the fact that ones neurophysiology has a huge impact on the decisions that one makes and the way that one interprets the reality that they're presented with. Even for people that aren't mentally ill, they often won't see things because the brain won't let them.
 
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hedwards said:
Most of my issues are the result of having tried to treat me for depression and anxiety that I don't really have in lieu of treatment for conditions that I do have.
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God! Can I relate to that! Still we must carry on. 
 
Because its quite clear who is doing what, and who is hampering it. ED is rallying with the community, some part of which has been shafted by craig. Its no easier for ED to deal with craig than it is for anyone else.

The community, in funding devices (solely) for craigs customers (right now), did in no way imply that in doing so it makes it ok for craig to walk away from his liabilites. Those belong with craig, and he answers to them, not ED. (not to be confused with support answering, i mean the debt)

When craig says that problems are now with ED for every little thing, and the problems for which he is responsible is somehow "we, the team" that is the part of the equation that doesnt add up.

And its easy to see why, its blatant self interest and cowardice.
 
comradekingu said:
Because its quite clear who is doing what, and who is hampering it.
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Yes, it is quite clear today. That still doesn't connect what I said with what you said. Why does this mean that it is impossible for Craig and EvilDragon to have come to an amicable agreement over two years ago before any of Craig's misdealings truly came to light?
 
It's odd, Jaqueline has had a number of Pandora's via that account in the last 6 months, but no one has left any feedback.  I'm guessing there is a possibility preorderers have requested them . that might explain this . Odd though.

Some have said OP Ltd is bankrupt and you wont get anything out of them, I guess all these Pandoras that are being sold kind of dissproves that.
 
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