It's the keyboard layout.

[codifies]

I'm really struggling to think which dosbox game or even productivity software out there there is that some people are so desperate to use... that hasn't been superseded by at least one if not a number of much better choices... I fail to see ANY advantage to crippling the keyboard layout to such a restrictive and arbitrary idea based in some arcane legacy issue 

 

[WizardStan]

I fail to see ANY advantage to crippling the keyboard layout to such a restrictive and arbitrary idea based in some arcane legacy issue

Really? No advantage? None whatsoever, despite several explanations everytime it's been posted? One more time then? Pay attention.I see it as making use of tools available to expand our options. Grench's most recent layout has an impressive international compatibility, access to all symbols which is no worse and in most cases better than other layouts, lots of room for custom remapping without breaking the displayed layout for key characters. The downside being that the number row is on the Fn layer but as a counter to that it makes it easy to Fn-lock in order to get simultaneous access to both the base numbers and the Function numbers which can be very useful in games: so a disadvantage with an advantage.

You can disagree on whether the advantages it has outweigh the disadvantage of having the numbers with unfamiliar access but to suggest there are absolutely no advantages is pure ignorance.

 

[_jr_]

Exactly. And going on all the time about how easy it will be to fix the software without actually fixing it isn't very helpful either.

 

[Saber]

All credit goes to Eight Bit here but I felt obliged to change it up a bit(no offense intended as the initial effort gets top marks).

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/fa7def15ac5dbe3b75054afc1b3f3474

Image for it here: http://i.imgur.com/rF16Kh4.png

Spoiler

Degree symbol could be at Fn + Backspace even though it's already Compose + o + o. Circumflex could be Shift + Fn + ^ too. Up to you guys. 

 

[codifies]

nope no advantage whatever - certainly not sufficient reason to hobble an already difficult to fit design

 

[WizardStan]

nope no advantage whatever

I just told you what the advantages were, again.

 

[codifies]

sorry forgot I wasn't allowed to disagree...

 

[Glyph Reader]

sorry forgot I wasn't allowed to disagree...

But you aren't explaining why it is not an advantage...

-Glyph Reader

 

[FaeMinx]

Hey I just won a motorized bicycle! It certainly has advantages over my brother's mountain bike.


Oh brother: I fail to see any advantages.


On hills I can engage the motor, enabling me to travel further and expend less energy. Also, now I can carry more groceries home without exhausting myself and drenching my clothes in sweat. Not only that, but I can choose not to engage the motor at all, so its just as economical as an ordinary bycicle. Sure it's a bit heavier, more bulky and less streamlined, but the advantages are undeniable.


Oh brother: Nope, sorry. No advantages whatsoever.


Edit: Also, why are we bothering to emulate old systems? Modern software is far more capable, and there are updated remakes of all the classic games worth their salt, so seriously... Let's stop hobbling this device with all these legacy conciderations...

 

[Urben]

Let's do the remaining 10 pages to 100 by feeding trolls!

Okay, ahem ... No, I must say there are really no advantages. And I'm saying this in all objectivity.

 

[codifies]

oh that's right I don't agree with you so I *must* be a troll *sigh*...

how many more times....  the keyboard had too few keys to limit the design with minimal utility design decisions like DosBox key pairs...

oh and for me personally a push bike is far preferable to a polluting motorbike...

I've unsubscribed from this thread...

 

[FaeMinx]

Why limit the capabilities of the device by *not* having key pairs?


I'm still waiting for a substantiated argument from you.


Oh, and a motorized bicycle is a bicycle with a lightweight motor that can be engaged *optionally*, so no need to pollute unless its absolutely necessary. And when its absolutely necessary, you'll be sorry you only have a push bike. But I noted that as an advantage.


My silly example was to show how absurd your stance was... But to my surprise, it actually showed you choose to ignore things on purpose.


That, as WizardStan pointed out... Is ignorance.


Oh, and a troll is someone who deliberately provokes confrontational responses. You could have avoided all of this by simply saying:


"I recognise the advantages you describe, but they mean nothing for me so I don't regard them as advantages."


That is how to state your position without being a troll.


Don't feel too bad, we all do it.

 

[WizardStan]

sorry forgot I wasn't allowed to disagree...

You are allowed to disagree, I even explicitly said you could disagree, explained how you might disagree. You can't disagree with facts though.Grench's layout thus far provides the widest coverage of international support. That is an advantage. I consider it an advantage under the guise of "more is better": more support is strictly better than less support. If it isn't an advantage then you need to explain why it isn't.

It improves access to all common symbols used in programming which are no worse than any other layout, and in many cases better, by making use of the FN-Shift combo as a single stroke. I consider this an advantage in that fewer "strokes" to achieve something is better than more strokes. If this isn't an advantage then you need to explain why it isn't.

The use of FN-shift to provide a lot of international support means there's a lot of potential for custom remapping for those that don't need those characters. I consider this to be an advantage because it provides more options to end users. If this isn't an advantage then you need to explain why it isn't.

The number keys are on the FN layer: this is a disadvantage because people expect them to be on the main level, BUT it has a counter advantage that you can use an FN-lock to gain access to the number row and the F-number row simultaneously which is definitly useful for gaming. If this is not an advantage, if having simultaneous access to the number row and the F-number row is actually a bad thing, then you need to explain why.

Those are all advantages. They've been explained several times but this time I have explicitly stated why they are actually advantages. If you do not consider them to be advantages then you need to explain why, you can't just say they aren't and expect people to listen to you. It doesn't work in real life, it won't work here.

Like I said

You can disagree on whether the advantages it has outweigh the disadvantage of having the numbers with unfamiliar access but to suggest there are absolutely no advantages is pure ignorance

 

[WizardStan]

Why limit the capabilities of the device by *not* having key pairs?

That's my argument. I stopped caring about "DosBox compatibility" a long time ago. I like the key pairs because it actually makes sense: it's a familiar convention and increases the number of characters that can be mapped.

 

[Grench]

For those of you following along or playing from home, these are two of the 'Grench' layouts being referenced.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ee8d3bc8b446f99c027105d3810f8d07

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b76ffdc065642c07243bad385b4a06a8

They are very similar. Differences in shoulder buttons (switched side to side), positioning of the insert, delete, backspace keys, potential for putting backspace on top of the top right key, etc... Both are variations on the same theme though.

They open up a broad list of advantages - thank you Wizard Stan for listing many of them out.