It's the keyboard layout.

[bzar]

So... evidence is not needed so long as you are the one challenged to provide it to support your own results, but the rest of us have to provide evidence to prove... sorry, got lost in your supreme logic.

Well, the burden of proof is usually on the person making a claim, which originally was "two right shifts cause issues". That said, I think the logical evidence provided by WizardStan is enough to shift it (pun not intended). The latest claim in this chain was something akin to "the probability of the issue of two right shifts manifesting is neglible". This has since been disputed, but the burden of proof sticks with the person making a claim.

 

[codifies]

@B-ZaR - proof is a negligible issue therefore you argument is refuted and has as turned into a nice red and white striped box of popcorn !

 

[ible]

Philosophy of argumentation += 1

I like the idea of Esc on the main keyboard.  That's pretty inventive, Saber!

Anybody prefer a similar version like this:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/36e699328abc82fe73977bcbe82c1020

over the "original" (ible 3 new intl):

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/81113d4bd6bfadaa66dd9e913025ed7c

 

[_wb_]

I'm a bit worried about accidental Esc presses if it is over there...

 

[Saber]

I like the idea of Esc on the main keyboard.  That's pretty inventive, Saber!

Inventive and evolutionary, or crazy. 

I'm a bit worried about accidental Esc presses if it is over there...

True, this is always a worry with Escape. If only we knew it could be up in the rafters where you have it in your layouts. As far to the left edge as we can go will have to do in this waiting moment, till we know. 

 

[ible]

as an old friend used to say, "I'm not afraid."  i don't think you'd hit it accidentally too many times, but i do like how it's more accessible than something up top.

 

[comradekingu]

Sounds like a bumpersticker for a car that usually is involved in no accidents. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[_wb_]

Putting Esc where Tab usually is really feels like a recipe for "oops" moments, almost like putting Del where Enter usually is. You wanted to open that file? Oops, you just deleted it. You wanted to go to the next field of the form? Oops, you just closed the dialog.

 

[Grench]

So... evidence is not needed so long as you are the one challenged to provide it to support your own results, but the rest of us have to provide evidence to prove... sorry, got lost in your supreme logic.

Well, the burden of proof is usually on the person making a claim, which originally was "two right shifts cause issues". That said, I think the logical evidence provided by WizardStan is enough to shift it (pun not intended). The latest claim in this chain was something akin to "the probability of the issue of two right shifts manifesting is neglible". This has since been disputed, but the burden of proof sticks with the person making a claim.

The original claim was implicit in the form of a keyboard layout proposal that had 3 shifts (that this would work properly).

I agree that the logical evidence provided leads to the conclusion that three shifts is a bad idea both in general and specific to the reasons listed by WizardStan.

For Saber to demand others to defend his own claims then resort to insults when others decline to do his work for him is simply inappropriate and should be called out.

 

[ible]

I don't think esc/tab is as bad as delete/enter, so that's a bad comparison to make.

 

[_wb_]

I agree that Esc/Tab is not as bad as Del/Enter (I said "almost as bad", so less bad). But Esc and Del can both be "destructive" keys (with connotations of "abort/quit" and "remove"), while Tab and Enter are both "innocent" keys, used for whitespace and navigation, usually with an easy way to undo.

 

[ible]

I should probably abort/quit more often than I intend to, so that's not a bug, it's a feature.

 

[comradekingu]

I see what you did

Spoiler

n't undo

there. ^^

 

[Saber]

Putting Esc where Tab usually is really feels like a recipe for "oops" moments, almost like putting Del where Enter usually is. You wanted to open that file? Oops, you just deleted it. You wanted to go to the next field of the form? Oops, you just closed the dialog.

I appreciate your input here but I have doubts about your blanket assumption. In v4.0a, the Escape key is placed as far as possible to the left border, out of the way, and the Tab key is in the same location as yours confidently is placed in your last updated layout.   

I'm flexible though and my ideas are hardly the word of gospel so we could move things around a bit: Tab and the Comma key could be interchanged if it comes to it or we could put Escape up where you have it, or on Fn + q again so another key is gained. We may even do something eccentric with v4.0a, musical chairs like, and move Left Shift over to where Tab is, Tab up to Escape, Escape up to the number one(and walk the numerics over by one key to the right), Backspace then to Enter, and Enter down to Left Shift(where Enter is normally anyways). Options to mull on.     

 

[Saber]

Here's v4.0c as described in the post prior to this: 

(layouts v4.0a and v4.0b are in my sig)

Kind of like this one. 

Spoiler

 

[Neelix]

data,  TAB, data, TAB,  data, TAB, data, ESC... WTF?   @#$%!!!!

- Neelix

 

[_wb_]

Here's v4.0c as described in the post prior to this: 

(layouts v4.0a and v4.0b are in my sig)

Kind of like this one. 

Misaligned number row is not so nice.

Why not put Esc all the way on top? Much less risk of accidental presses, and should still be quite easy to reach...

 

[Saber]

Here's v4.0c as described in the post prior to this: 

(layouts v4.0a and v4.0b are in my sig)

Kind of like this one. 

Spoiler

Spoiler

Misaligned number row is not so nice.

Why not put Esc all the way on top? Much less risk of accidental presses, and should still be quite easy to reach...

Why not put Escape up top you ask? It's because it'd be all the way up top, far removed from the other keys. Has it's good and bad points.  

As for the misalignment, that's disputable. On many keyboards, the Escape key is to the left of the F-keys F1-F12. This is how it is on the keyboard I'm using at present. Here, underneath the Escape is the Backtick and Tilde key, and just to their right is the number row, starting with number 1, which begins directly underneath F1.

In this latest mockup, it aligns perfectly, here, but to repeat myself, I'm not inflexible with these layouts, and we could put barely useful ` in that top left corner, and totally useful ~ as it's Shift value, with Escape under Fn. Something like this.

 

[_wb_]

Here's v4.0c as described in the post prior to this: 

(layouts v4.0a and v4.0b are in my sig)

Kind of like this one. 

Spoiler

Spoiler

Misaligned number row is not so nice.

Why not put Esc all the way on top? Much less risk of accidental presses, and should still be quite easy to reach...

Spoiler

Why not put Escape up top you ask? It's because it'd be all the way up top, far removed from the other keys. Has it's good and bad points.  

As for the misalignment, that's disputable. On many keyboards, the Escape key is to the left of the F-keys F1-F12. This is how it is on the keyboard I'm using at present. Here, underneath the Escape is the Backtick and Tilde key, and just to their right is the number row, starting with number 1, which begins directly underneath F1.

Escape at the very top, far removed from the letters and numbers, that is where it usually is on normal keyboard.

The misalignment I was talking about is between the number row and the QWERTY row: normally "2" should be between "Q" and "W", not between "W" and "E". Comradekingu's layout has the same issue. It is perhaps not a huge issue, but if we can keep the alignment correct, it's still better.

This is how a normal full-size US-QWERTY keyboard looks: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/29c5176552f79c65bca1f66beb18441a

Of course we don't have enough keys for that, so we have to make a selection.

If you would map things back to a normal keyboard, things would look as follows:

This is v4.0c of Saber's proposal: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9fe5ad40a0c7ca16e24c3f3ede30ac13

This is my current proposal: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/afb73cddfab87ce624273982fcbb9bcd

(I have indicated the keys I consider "correctly aligned" in white, and the ones that are "misaligned" in black).

 

[comradekingu]

But you are flat out skipping buttons to make it happen. Preserving alignment between numbers and letters, and then skipping letters, for purpose of being a "normal" keyboard is creating more issues than it solves.