It's the keyboard layout.

[Grench]

This seems to be the list, we have not yet answered why it differs so much from how the French type French

And nobody, not French, German or English is going to be typing on any of these, let alone touch typing (unless their last name is only pronounceable in Pixie-Elvish) in a 'normal' manner on a roughly 140mm wide device.

EvilDragon gave a prioritization of language support.  English first, then German and French.  

 

Each language will have 'compromises'.  English, having primary support, will have the fewest compromises.  German users should then be accommodated with as few compromises as possible without disrupting the English primary.  French will be the most compromised, but should still be functional.  Spanish is a nice to add.  With limited characters not present in the other 3 languages, it's a pretty easy add.

Your demands for French and German 'normal use' at the expense of general usability and how it handles English as the primary language are counter to the intent.

 

[comradekingu]

Ed said those three languages, was the current market

"The main languages used where the Pandora sold are English, French and German. It should support these languages as good as possible (with English being the main one)"

along with

"The keyboard should be standard enough to be used by every normal user"

I don't get farther along than step 1 with that in mind.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/French_pc_keyboard.svgThis is a french keyboard.

Àà, Ââ, Ææ, Ää

Çç

Éé, Èè, Êê, Ëë

Îî, Ïï

Ôô, Œœ, Öö

Ùù, Ûû, Üü

Ÿÿ

Divided into these:  

Acute accent (é):

Grave accent (à, è, ù)

Circumflex (â, ê, î, ô, û)

Diaeresis or tréma (ë, ï, ü, ÿ)

Cedilla (ç)

œ and æ

This is how that can be done within limits of keys available:

First rate: You can type the grave accent (à, è, ù) and acute accent (é) with a single key

2 7 9 and 0.  This would require shift+ to type numbers by default, like a french keyboard, so no baguette on that one.

(edit: proposing a hack.  ^+ 2 4 9 0  only does something for 2 and 0  which is  ế and ầ  that could be used to reinstate éèçà so they are at least in the right place, albeit with nonstandard mod and not as effective as dedicated)

Second rate:

Dead ^

Guide

To type anything with a circumflex (â, ê, etc), type ^ then the vowel

           ^+ =    âêîôû

AltGr+^  is     äëüÿ

AltGr+ and shift+altGr+ and the rest of it is different for each language, but if you have all those buttons its as per usual.

^ is to be found on P→1, the key to the right of P. On german keyboards its P→2

Selecting french to get this button there means you have to

1. select french

2. get used to using [ ] with altGr rather than type it directly

3. blindly type as you are used to

*  resist urge to type ^^ since it looks like a cute cat

3. 1 possibly buy a keymat that represents keymat change

Third rate:

compose (dead-keys):

The keyboard is too small to have third modifier on number-row open (alternative being putting symbols all over the keyboard) so AltGr cant trigger it.

Instead Ctrl+alt can.  With one press of the thumb you can get  dead-key  accent retroflex and grave  those are the most used ones.

1. Find out where ctrl+alt is

2. Find out that it does dead-keys, if you havent used US-international

3. Use it with nonstandard arrangement of symbols on number-row.

œ is AltGr+o on my keyboard, maybe its similar for french

æ            altGr+a = æ

ç cedille, dont know

Edit  currently toying zith setxkbmap fr

edit2: http://french.about.com/od/writing/ss/typeaccents_7.htm is a fourth-rate option.

Mapping hacks is only moreso possible, since F- is available for more keys, but again, thats a hack.

(Edit3: Found _another_ way of accenting letters https://youtu.be/aHm36-na4-4?t=22m45s )

Feedback, glad to see the symbols nearly coming off all the letter keys in wb's latest "grenchified"

Now im only left wondering what good meta and " ′ does at extreme left..?

Putting the only keyboardshift at extreme left is bad, because you finish all sentences with either dot space, or dot enter

 

[Haraldur]

((Has not read the entirety of the topic.))

I only recently got a Pandora and one thing I have noticed is that there are no raised surfaces/bumps on the keys that would aid touch-typing. This means that, when typing in the dark, it is much easier to use the keys near the edges (especially left and right) of the mat than those in the middle: the edge keys are easily memorized and can be quickly found without too much counting of spaces between keys. Those in he middle need both memorization and the counting of the keys felt with the fingers.

I am aware that the Pyra shall have a back-light for the keyboard, but I would prefer it to be optional rather than essential. Also, the problem shall probably be made a little worse by the fact that the new keyboard for the Pyra shall have four rows of keys in the main section rather than three, causing more to be middle keys rather than edge keys.

I suggest that the keyboard needs more landmarks. Already, there are the edge keys (particularly the corner keys) and the special keys (the centre column with the menu keys, the d-pad, the face buttons, he nubs) as well as the double-length space-bar, which helps for M, K and L. PC-keyboards typically have bumps on F and J, though on the Pyra that would be asymmetrical, as the key normally to the right of L is removed -- it may be more helpful for a bump to be further left than J (H?). If F and H (or J) have bumps, then the maximum distance from a landmark for any key would be 2, whereas without any bumps it would be 5 (for F and T). Navigating across 5 keys, in the dark, by touch and without error requires significant concentration -- concentration better spent on the task itself rather than the ancillary activity of typing; I consider the scenario of playing DOS games like Wizardry 7 under the covers in bed: I believe there are a lot of keyboard commands (I only intend to play them: I have not, yet).

TL;DR: There should be some bump (or other tangible mark) on at least the letter key F and one of H or J.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

So have we settled on a layout yet...

 

[TrashyMG]

So have we settled on a layout yet...

Do buffaloes have wings? 

 

[comradekingu]

Heia, nice to see new faces.

F and J is just as asymmetrical on a regular keyboard. Their purpose are to guide your hands to a starting position. On a pandora you already have that holding the device.

I can touch-type A-Zenglish on it, nothing else, because that part all follows the norm. The keys are a little tricky, but thats because they are small. They will be wider, which hopefully aids typing a bit. (corresponding more to the area you press with)

Nudges being mechanical complexity, and something that can potentially wear against the screen. I'd say give it a go for a while longer and see if you change your mind. Try adding nudges to F and J and report back with results.

Edit: Also make note of how you use the space. Is it all on the left side, in the middle, or the right side. Or a combination thereof?

 

[Saber]

So have we settled on a layout yet...

Do buffaloes have wings? 

In this magical thread anything is attainable. 

 

[Haraldur]

F and J is just as asymmetrical on a regular keyboard. Their purpose are to guide your hands to a starting position. On a pandora you already have that holding the device.

I can touch-type A-Zenglish on it, nothing else, because that part all follows the norm. The keys are a little tricky, but thats because they are small. They will be wider, which hopefully aids typing a bit. (corresponding more to the area you press with)

Nudges being mechanical complexity, and something that can potentially wear against the screen. I'd say give it a go for a while longer and see if you change your mind. Try adding nudges to F and J and report back with results.

On a normal keyboard F and J are nearly symmetrical, with no better option. On a Pandora/Pyra that is not the case. F and H are symmetrical.

When at a PC in the dark (am I the only one?) I use the bumps on F and J and the corners (CTRL, BACK, `) for navigation. Yes, if one's index finger is on F then three other fingers are distributed on A, S and D, but for thumb-typing on a Pyra/Pandora that does not apply.

I have only had my Pandora for a week, so I may get better, but without looking it is difficult to be sure that I would press an F rather than a G or D. Larger keys would help (and not fit), but would not fix everything. A full-size keyboard in the dark and without bumps on F and J would also be a little tricky.

I do not understand how bumps would add mechanical complexity, assuming the keys are labelled before assembly into the device and/or are in a single-piece mat.

If there is a worry about bumps scratching the screen, there are other options. I use to play the Accordion/Harmonika and the bass/left-hand buttons are not normally visible to the player. To aid (i.e. make feasible) navigation up and down the set of buttons, some of said buttons would be marked: most were convex/normal, some were concave (still smooth) and others had many little bumps. Concave ones should be no trouble for the screen.

I can cope with a Pandora keyboard as it is -- I sha'n't give it up -- but I thought I should mention the navigation problem before the keyboard layout discussion finished.

 

[comradekingu]

The bumps add mechanical complexity by being an addition to whats currently proved to be possible. I dont know if its clear polyurethane thats added atop the keys, but having a flat surface is different to having a bump. With legends featuring a print part, it could be that the bump wore off, or broke.

I dont think any of the people designing layouts have actually tried the real thing, so there is a bit of testing to be done before one can know if all ideas work out or not.

 

[rygD]

So have we settled on a layout yet...

Do buffaloes have wings? 

http://www.buffalowildwings.com

The keys are a little tricky, but thats because they are small. They will be wider, which hopefully aids typing a bit. (corresponding more to the area you press with)

I can't tell if you are saying they will be wider than they are vertically, or if they will be wider than the Pandora keys (I thought they would be about the size of Pandora number keys).

 

[Neelix]

I agree that there should be physical identifiers for F and J. Other considerations aside, putting them on F and J still makes the most sense, because that is where people familiar with a QWERTY keyboard will expect them to be.

- Neelix

 

[OneMoreGuest]

Soooo... Almost 500 replies, huh?

How exactly this will be defined? I see no problem in having to adapt myself, or even using a key to a completely different character or function which the symbols indicates. Since I have enough keys/buttons...

 

[bzar]

People talk (sometimes along with polls after polls), ED makes a decision, some people complain, things move forward.

 

[Haraldur]

Try adding nudges to F and J and report back with results.

Edit: Also make note of how you use the space. Is it all on the left side, in the middle, or the right side. Or a combination thereof?

Given that I have only recently received my Pandora, I am loath to tamper with it. If I was so inclined, though, I could take a knife and scratch the surfaces of the appropriate buttons (but I don't want to). Alternatively, I could put some very small labels on the buttons (but I haven't any). Or I could use sticky-tape (but I worry about scratching the screen, or dirtying it, if I make a mistake).

For the space, it varies, though the middle is probably the most common. It seems most of the emulators use it for pausing/menu, so being able to very quickly find it is good. I certainly think space deserves to be larger than normal.

 

[Bosbeetle]

There are (some) people in the world typing on touchscreens, it cannot get any worse than that and still they adapted, we can also adapt to a keyboard layout.

 

[Saber]

On a normal keyboard F and J are nearly symmetrical, with no better option. On a Pandora/Pyra that is not the case. F and H are symmetrical.

Exactly why we don't need bumps or dips on F and J. It's a handheld that you'll cradle in both palms equidistant from the edges so you're already optimally oriented.

I'm not saying ED won't do this to placate, but with what I said and the backlighting, I don't see the need.

 

[Neelix]

I'm not saying ED won't do this to placate, but with what I said and the backlighting, I don't see the need.

Just because some people wouldn't need it, doesn't mean others wouldn't find it invaluable. Unless it would somehow greatly complicate the manufacturing process I see no reason not to do it.

- Neelix

 

[Saber]

I'm not saying ED won't do this to placate, but with what I said and the backlighting, I don't see the need.

Just because some people wouldn't need it, doesn't mean others wouldn't find it invaluable. Unless it would somehow greatly complicate the manufacturing process I see no reason not to do it.


- Neelix

Looking downward and/or turning on the backlight might be simpler.

 

[Neelix]

And if the user is blind?

Seriously, what do you have against this? I don't understand why you are so opposed to it.

Personally, I rather suspect my main method of finding keys is going to be the back-light, but I still think having a method to orient ones fingers on the keyboard by touch is a good idea.

- Neelix

 

[RenegadeChic]

I am surprised this isn't just being resolved in software. It would make sense to me for symbols to be featured on the keys and then have a dedicated row where you push AltGr or Fn or whatever, on screen shows a single row of the characters you have assigned in software to this row, and then you push the relevant button on the row. You'll never please everyone so really the best you can hope for is that people have the facility of getting the characters they want and the on screen box would provide a reference that you wouldn't make permanent on the keypad.