It's the keyboard layout.

[Grench]

According to http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16868-the-big-pyra-keyboard-poll//URL] it leans towards P+2 L+2 so that we dont have to deal with it.

Easiest is best.

Sorry, but an uneducated popular opinion doesn't trump reality.  

That layout methodology cannot be done without sacrificing the ability to use the modifiers on the keyboard without using the shoulder buttons.  I.e. there isn't room to duplicate the right shoulder's buttons on the lower left keyboard.

 

[Saber]

I dont know if its called dead-keys or compose, but thats how my keyboard works anyhow. (Norwegian keyboard)

Edit: ok, i think i had the two mixed.

Edit2: To help,  AltGr+key to do accents only work for the keys that dont type the symbol directly.

"key" here is the one to the right of backspace on the number-row

key            =                                                                                   \

shift+key   =                                                                                   `

AltGr+key  =        (composeordeadkey?)        +  e                  =    é

AltGr+key  =         (composeordeadkey?)      +   key              =     ´      

I thought   ctrl+alt  was the alternative way of triggering this in US international.

Actually it's...

key            =    \

shift+key   =    `

AltGr with Shift then Shift + key  =  Grave deadkey(not shown)  then  e   =    é

or with Compose it's...

key            =    \

shift+key   =    `

Compose then  shift+key for ` (not shown) then e  =  è 

 

[Saber]

According to http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16868-the-big-pyra-keyboard-poll//URL] it leans towards P+2 L+2 so that we dont have to deal with it.

I couldn't do a P + 2 and L + 2 on my layout like on full-size keyboards but I did set it up so it's Y + 2 and H + 3. For the uninitiated, this means the user can choose to remap their local alphabet, if they happen to be non-German, to AltGr + i or o on the third row and AltGr + j or k or l on the second row. Replace any of the umlauts, micro, and section sign that are already there.

 

[Grench]

Actually it's...

key            =    \

shift+key   =    `

AltGr with Shift then Shift + key  =  Grave deadkey(not shown)  then  e   =    é

or with Compose it's...

key            =    \

shift+key   =    `

Compose then  shift+key for ` (not shown) then e  =  è 

But which method, diacritic dead keys or compose, is preferable?  Or do we need to account for both?

For compose, is the compose key held or pressed and released prior to the next two symbols?

 

[TSweetrain]

A bit late, but I think there should be a default layout that can be easily changed with a built in program, that way different people can change it depending on their needs.  The downside is if you changed the default keyboard (the one with all the lower case letters) the actual keys wouldn't display the change.  It would also mean it would be hard to type on someone else's Pyra (assuming they changed the layout).

 

[comradekingu]

Yes, thats already the case in most all desktop environments, often you get a little widget too.

You need to make the P+2 keys and L+2 keys available for it to make sense to truly change the layout for anyone. Otherwise you are just remapping things around.

That is just a variation over the theme not-the-way-people-use-their-keyboards.

---------------------------------------------

Grench: I dont know what kind of reality you are talking about, its not like non-english people dont know how to use a keyboard...?

If i understand the latter part of what you said. The lower left ← part of the keyboard is a very bad place for modifiers, since enter is over at the other side. Thats the one you cant duplicate.  In turn requiring . to be on the same side for efficiency. That brings along with it space. Which also cant be duplicated. Following the placement of shift on the right side.

The reason for having modifiers and Ctrl+alt on shoulders is because thats more effective given the keyboard only can make use of the two thumbs. Two thumbs being the reason why extreme left when everything else is extreme right is ineffective. Clustering oft used sequences together for efficiency isnt uneducated.

Having dedicated keys for dedicated keys, in the normal positions is somethihng you dont change without making things worse.

You will also see the poll saying its ok to have modifiers on shoulders only. And on my poll people want shift only for inputting natural language.

Everything that is as easy as possible is what people want, because they can understand it.

 

[Saber]

Actually it's...

key            =    \

shift+key   =    `

AltGr with Shift then Shift + key  =  Grave deadkey(not shown)  then  e   =    é

or with Compose it's...

key            =    \

shift+key   =    `

Compose then  shift+key for ` (not shown) then e  =  è 

But which method, diacritic dead keys or compose, is preferable?  Or do we need to account for both?

For compose, is the compose key held or pressed and released prior to the next two symbols?

Account for both to give the person a choice for how they want accented letters. Compose also has many more characters it can give us.

Compose is like a sticky key almost. You press it, to enter Compose mode, then you input a symbol + letter or letter + letter afterwards.

A bit late, but I think there should be a default layout that can be easily changed with a built in program, that way different people can change it depending on their needs.  The downside is if you changed the default keyboard (the one with all the lower case letters) the actual keys wouldn't display the change.  It would also mean it would be hard to type on someone else's Pyra (assuming they changed the layout).

The default layout on the Pandora could be changed with a little technical knowledge by the individual. Not what's on the physical key labels obviously, but what a key does when you press it, or another key with it. If you want an å, then remap one of the keys you don't ever think you'll need with that character.

The Pyra shouldn't be any different in this regard. 

 

[comradekingu]

What do you actually think is going to work. The default switcher with minimal changes to the layout, and then a link with an image of how it behaves differently.  Or.  a "man xmodmap" upon boot?  Even given both are equally valid, one is effective and the other isnt. There is no quesswork there, something works, dont try to change it. Not even dvorak managed to change things.

 

[Grench]

Actually it's...

key            =    \

shift+key   =    `

AltGr with Shift then Shift + key  =  Grave deadkey(not shown)  then  e   =    é

or with Compose it's...

key            =    \

shift+key   =    `

Compose then  shift+key for ` (not shown) then e  =  è 

But which method, diacritic dead keys or compose, is preferable?  Or do we need to account for both?

For compose, is the compose key held or pressed and released prior to the next two symbols?

Account for both to give the person a choice for how they want accented letters. Compose also has many more characters it can give us.

Compose is like a sticky key almost. You press it, to enter Compose mode, then you input a symbol + letter or letter + letter afterwards.

But is it:

A.  Press and hold compose while you input the other symbols.

B.  Press and release compose then input the other symbols.

If A, it's going to be a pain in the ass to actually use on any of these keyboards.

If B, how does it know when the user is 'done'?  Or is it always a compose, release, 2 symbols sequence?

 

[comradekingu]

Its B.

I understand its appeal if you type anything under the sun. But in actual use i wonder if just typing the letter you want and then typing a button to start toggling the accents has higher chance of working.

press e then tap a modifier 3 times to get ` above it.  

If i press e  and then let go and press   ^+'  i get  ë́        I call it the pineapple. Something in a keyboard has a similar functionality, that's the extent of my knowledge.

e   |     ^+'     =  ë́                 It can even be    e  |  ^   |    '   =  ë́                                  where   |   is lift off from the keys without holding anything.

 

[_wb_]

Compose is fine for symbols you rarely need, like § and µ and °, or letters like äëïöüáéíóúçñêè in Dutch, where they are rarely needed. Three thumb presses per letter (possibly more if you don't use shoulder modifiers) is too slow to use for letters you regularly need.

Dead diacritics are fine for letters you frequently, but not constantly need, like circumflex in French. It's still two thumb presses per letter.

Dedicated keys (probably not primary ones) are the only option for letters you constantly need, like à é è in French or umlauted vowels in German. They are only one thumb press per letter.

My proposal (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/f9f3508ae2ea1ed6de939d0100173675) allows for all three options. I have Compose at Meta+LShift (and I suppose someone who uses shoulder buttons could map Compose to simply LShift). I have several dead diacritics (at Meta or Shift + ' " ` ~ < > , .). And there's plenty of room to map dedicated (Meta) keys, in particular at the vowels and in a triangle at P L comma, which is physically close to the P+1 L+2 triangle of keys which is often mapped to special letters.

 

[bzar]

Question, what is it if i type Altgr+´ and then e to get é?


One button+letter is dead-key  and  two buttons+letter is compose?


So confus.

I think you got this already since posting the above, but to clarify: compose button initiates compose mode. It does not determine any part of the character to be composed by itself. For example, pandora has compose at shift-enter, after which you input the composed characters (like " and a to produce ä). Dead key diacritics mean "this thingamajing in addition to...", so they're conceptually equivalent to both pressing compose and a diacritic in succession. For example, pressing compose and then " is conceptually equivalent to pressing a ¨ dead key. Implementation-wise they differ, but that's the basic gist of it.

Hence, the Altgr+´ is a dead key diacritic, because it already defines a part of the character to be produced, with the second part supplied after it.

 

[ible]

I'm not super comfortable with the place of insert and delete on _wb_'s layout here.

I think I have a fairly nice solution:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a8f261dbcd7fd3ee3e71c03152393923

Nice features:

• | is a bit below &:  OR vs. AND 
• / and \ are below |, for symmetry, and because you'll probably want to escape slash more often than other things.
• : then enter (common Python chain) won't accidentally trigger an F12 press, because : is the shift of ., not the AltGr.
• - and + are symmetric above =.
• ~ is hanging out in a less intrusive place than near an edge.
• can give C an AltGr with a cedilla or whatever.

Not so nice features:

• It has a lot of "empty" space in random places, which doesn't look as neat as _wb_'s layout (where all the AltGr symbols are on the bottom or top row).  I think this still allows you to put your own dedicated keys in where you want, though, so it's kind of a plus and a minus.
• Can't give E any AltGr's, unless we move [] and {} around to QW and DF or something like that.  Would anybody miss putting their Eth on D?

 

[comradekingu]

 

[bzar]

Single-width space again?

 

[_wb_]

Inspired by ible and Grench, here is another version of my proposal:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/8b93808af832d16168b37549f55698c6

Here it is with some options for the unused Meta-labels:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6605c02eed859ed9f02c4bd92445ba5e

Nice features:

• | below &
• C and N no longer have AltGr/Meta/Fn/Sym labels, so the French/Spanish/Portuguese can map ç and ñ there
• = is now nicely between < and >, which makes sense in the arithmetic comparison operator sense

Changes (can't really say nice or bad):

• Ins and Del are now primary keys, Brightness are secondary keys. I would say that it's not that big of a problem that it is secondary, since it will still be way easier than on the Pandora to repeatedly press brightness inc/dec keys (since you can use shoulder Fn/Meta/AltGr/Sym, or hold the keyboard Meta/AltGr/Sym/Fn with left thumb and press brightness inc/dec with right thumb).
• Swapped keyboard Shift and ' "
• { } are now on shift+ [ ]  -- perhaps a bit tricky if you refuse to use shoulder buttons, but I think it should be doable to do one 'thumb roll' that produces a pair of {}

Bad features:

• Shift+{ } is no longer possible (for dead breve / inverted breve). But those diacritics are very unimportant, so who cares.

I want to emphasize that one of the advantages of my layout proposal is that it intentionally leaves lots of letter keys without a Meta/Fn/Sym/AltGr label, so they can be mapped optimally for your particular language(s). The following letters are free to map (with AltGr/Fn/Sym/Meta) to whatever you want:

• A could be à, ä, å, æ
• C could be ç, ¢, © or dead caron (for žčš)
• D could be đ, ð or perhaps some variant of E if multiple accented E's are needed (e.g. in French)
• E could be é, è, ê, ë, €, œ, æ
• F could be anything
• I could be í, ì, ï
• L could be ₤, Ł
• N could be ñ
• O could be ö, ø, œ, ô
• P could be ₤, ¶ or another variant of O
• R could be ® or another variant of E
• S could be ß, §, ş or another variant of A or E
• T could be þ, ŧ, ţ
• U could be ü, ù, ú
• W could be another variant of E or A
• Y could be ¥, ý or another variant of U

So I think my proposal makes it possible to efficiently input the following languages: (example mappings are given to show that it is possible, obviously it is a matter of taste where exactly you map the extra letters)

• English (duh)
• German: map äöüß to Meta+AOUS
• French: map éèàçùœ to Meta+ERACUO and perhaps dead circumflex/diaeresis if you're not happy with the default (Shift+> for dead circumflex, Meta+" for dead diaeresis)
• Spanish: map ñáéíóú to Meta+NAEIOU, ¿¡ could be e.g. at Shift+? and Shift+_
• Portuguese (also Brazil): same as Spanish, plus çâêôà for example at Meta+CSRPW
• Italian: map àèòùéç to Meta+AEOURC
• Dutch: no remapping needed, just use the default dead diacritics or Compose when you need áéíóúäëïöü or other accents
• Danish/Norwegian: map åøæ to Meta+AOE
• Swedish/Finnish: map äöå to Meta+AOS
• Turkish: map çşğıöü to Meta+CSFIOU
• Estonian: map äöüõ to Meta+AOUP
• Faroese: same as Danish plus Đ at Meta+D
• Polish: map Łąęóśćń to Meta+LAEOSCN, for ź and ż you would have to use Meta+' Z and Meta+. Z
• Romanian: map âăîşţ to Meta+AWIST
• Slovak: map ôäĺŕ to Meta+OALR, dead caron to Meta+C and use the default dead acute (Meta+') for long vowels
• Hungarian: map áéőű to Meta+AEOU and use the default dead acute and dead umlaut for óúöü
• South Slavic (Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian/Slovene): map Кžč to Meta+DSAC

 

[rygD]

I'm not super comfortable with the place of insert and delete on _wb_'s layout here.

Why?  When typing they are out of the way, so you won't hit them by accident, and when playing games they should be mapped to game controls.  If you think they are too far away, many people are concerned about delete being destructive.

comradekingu, I really dislike the GNOME logo key, and since GNOME is not planned to be used by default it is out of place.

 

[comradekingu]

But nobody notices the lack of F-keys.

 

[WizardStan]

I assumed that one of those symbols was that "F-ing" button you want and that it was supposed to be understood that that plus a number equaled an F-key.

 

[Neelix]

But nobody notices the lack of F-keys.

I just dismissed it as being incomplete and thus pointless.  *shrugs*

- Neelix