It's the keyboard layout.

[rygD]

The leftmost key on the power-column is a good placement for escape, it is out of the way, in similar fashion to where you are used to fiding it, up and to the left.

My keyboard has some keys in positions that are more convenient to me (Esc next to the number row, Caps Lock swapped with left Ctrl).  The Pandora Esc is more like where mine is than what you suggest, and on the Pyra it would be one down and a little right, however what you said is probably best for most people.

 

[comradekingu]

Both of those changes are good. I take it you are the old-school escaper, who uses esc for other things than to exit programs. A more central approach goes

nicely with that. Its still top left i presume, so easy transition. Caps with left ctrl is also good. Popular with the emacs and vims of the world.

Most people dont use escape, easy as.

This would be the right kind of place to ask if there are people who use escape enough to warrant placing it closer. Not that its available, just trying to understand.

From my foray into trying to put esc on backspace, the conclusion was that anywhere potentially accident-prone is bad.

 

[Neelix]

I have to logical layouts: US and "US International width dead keys". When I want to code or write in  my own language (it includes á, é.... ñ, etc, and I got them with RIGHT ALT key wich acts like ALT_Gr) I use US International layout with dead keys, and when I want to code and write only in English I use US layout.

Out of curiosity,  why bother switching between the two?   I have mine set to US International full time and have never had any reason to switch it back to the regular version. (and I usually only actually use accented characters during my French lessons)

- Neelix

 

[comradekingu]

Regular US layout
The US International layout changes the `, ~, ^, " (for ¨), and ' (for ´) keys into dead keys for producing accented characters. The US International layout also uses the right alt (AltGr) as a modifier to enter special characters.

Since we need AltGr as third level modifier, and ~ and some of the others as real symbols, inputting dead-keys is available in the alternative US international fashion ctrl+alt+diactric

Fortunately its possible to place 1 each on all of the numberkeys (so that you dont have to go ctrl+alt+altgr+6 for example, and can go ctrl+alt+6 instead)

That way you get the best of both worlds scenario, where its even an option to turn it off if you just dont want dead-keys. And with the dedicated keys, its more of a special case rather than something all international users depend on.

 

[Neelix]

Regular US layout


The US International layout changes the `, ~, ^, " (for ¨), and ' (for ´) keys into dead keys for producing accented characters. The US International layout also uses the right alt (AltGr) as a modifier to enter special characters.

I also use US International.   The difference (which I only just realised)  is that with the version I use I have to use AltGr to trigger the dead keys themselves, so I don't have to switch it for regular english.

 

[rygD]

Most people dont use escape, easy as.


This would be the right kind of place to ask if there are people who use escape enough to warrant placing it closer. Not that its available, just trying to understand.


From my foray into trying to put esc on backspace, the conclusion was that anywhere potentially accident-prone is bad.

I think I voted for a dedicated Escape, however if it will take away a key we need for something else I am fine keeping it on Q.  There aren't really any good locations that are close to the main keyboard and out of the way, like on a standard keyboard.  This is probably something (minor) to consider:  those that want a dedicated Esc key probably wanted it so it would be easy to hit, yet having it dedicated means moving it to an inconvenient place, with the possible exception of people with long thumbs if it is under start and select.  I need to go look at the poll in a bit to see how many others care about a dedicated Escape.

 

[szr]

Both of those changes are good. I take it you are the old-school escaper, who uses esc for other things than to exit programs. A more central approach goes


nicely with that. Its still top left i presume, so easy transition. Caps with left ctrl is also good. Popular with the emacs and vims of the world.


Most people dont use escape, easy as.


This would be the right kind of place to ask if there are people who use escape enough to warrant placing it closer. Not that its available, just trying to understand.


From my foray into trying to put esc on backspace, the conclusion was that anywhere potentially accident-prone is bad.

There is also the usage of Escape as a short-cut for Cancel/No/etc in many places like dialog boxes for example.

 

[comradekingu]

None of which i really want to accidentally trigger. Besides, i think ESC is valid for that in games where the third column-button would bring up menu.

Solution, move Esc top left.

 

[bzar]

Anyone who uses vi/vim/nvim or any other editor with vi-input mode uses Esc a lot.

 

[TrashyMG]

Anyone who uses vi/vim/nvim or any other editor with vi-input mode uses Esc a lot.

like me, but I don't mind FN+Q.

 

[rygD]

Exactly.  I feel like I am repeating myself with this: I think the main people that want a dedicated Esc key want it because they use it frequently, which probably means they will need it when using the keyboard, and moving it away from the keyboard makes it less useful than the Pandora location where it isn't dedicated.

 

[codifies]

FN+Q. is no hardship and doesn't mean "wasting" a key with a single function...

If you're looking for a roundup of layouts my preference for all language symbols printed on the case (or an overlay), is worth reiterating - making the keymat more generic and much more flexible

If the difference between a Chinese Spanish British and German Pyra is simply a little printing on the case - or a supply of cheap plastic clip on overlays then no one suffers a keyboard layout that fails to be "all things to all people" AND its cheap and very flexible

 

[WizardStan]

Anyone who uses vi/vim/nvim or any other editor with vi-input mode uses Esc a lot.

like me, but I don't mind FN+Q.

Ditto.

 

[bzar]

Same here. I was replying to the notion that not many people use Esc but to exit programs.

 

[_wb_]

I think that DEAD KEY DIACRITICS (like Meta+' for the acute accent) is better than having a key/LABEL with ö, ü, ä, etc. Even I think people watching those LABELS on the keyboard may be frightened thinking it is a local product only for one language.


I think no one gets frightened watching ´ ¨ like 2nd symbols (the same way we watch [ ] { } ^ etc), but watching ö, ü, ä, etc, seems like a local product, not a neutral/international product for all latin alphabets.


I think a neutral way to include all or most of the latin alphabets with dead key diacritics is the better way, because it is neutral and capable for near all latin alphabets language. And if needed, we can have optional language layouts via software, where one can change the layout and have for example dedicated ö, ü, ä without dead key use.


PD: I am Spaniard and we use á é í ó ú really a lot of because that accent indicates the pitch accent in a fixed rules, and all those are entered via dead key. If I see a keyboard with ñ and ç I know it is Spanish, but if it a keyboard instead have no local symbols but optional diacritics ~ ¨ etc, I see it like neutral.

My proposal (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/f9f3508ae2ea1ed6de939d0100173675) does not have explicit labels for dead diacritics (to keep things simple), but it does have dead diacritics by default.

It has a dedicated key for quote / double quote ( ' / " ), and this key does not have any Meta labels, since it is meant to be a dead acute accent (áéíóú) and umlaut (äëïöü) when used with Meta. My backtick and tilde (` ~) are on Meta positions, and the idea is that they can be used as dead grave accent (àèìòù) and dead tilde (ñõ) when used with Meta+Shift. Also Meta+comma is available for cedilla or ogonek (çşąęįų).

Any Latin-based letter with diacritics can be entered in just two thumb-presses in this way (since Meta and Shift are available as shoulder buttons, so no thumb travel is needed for those). Or in three thumb-presses if you use the Compose key method (e.g. Compose " U for Ü, Compose A E for Æ).

For comparison, on the Pandora the situation was much worse. The Pandora does not have Fn on a shoulder button, and it does not have dead diacritics. So to type é on the Pandora, you need at least four thumb presses: Shift-Enter (L1+Enter) for Compose, then Fn, then A (for '), then E.

 

[comradekingu]

Wb: The problem with putting meta on a shoulder is that you cant then use the shoulders as mediabuttons. Meta is the hack, and thus, it should be free to use in conjunction with shoulders.

The portable media-player aspect is very important to a lot of people. Without mediabuttons on shoulders by it is down to may or may not have great sound.

Ideally i think the pyra should be a jack of many trades, Gaming, Laptop, Cellphone, Portable sound, Free software, Good engineering, Environmental, Good design, Easy to use.

You get more customers with each of those, and a whole lot by pulling of everything at once.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But a lot of programs use esc to close said programs. Having a way to trigger escape on Q with shoulders means you can accidentally close a program when you meant to type big letter something. That is a horrid trap.

The people who do use ESC in VIM, are very technical users. I do imagine they can set up their own hotkey that doesnt ruin the whole keyboard for that is less technical.

Mapping in broken functionality is a lot more sleek than having to map it out by default.

Edit: See the keyboard as a tool, not like a specialized instrument you need training to cope with.

 

[bzar]

The problem with putting meta on a shoulder is that you cant then use the shoulders as mediabuttons. Meta is the hack, and thus, it should be free to use in conjunction with shoulders.

The problem with NOT putting it there is requiring two thumb-presses for any meta+key. A matter of priorities, then?

The portable media-player aspect is very important to a lot of people. Without mediabuttons on shoulders by it may or may not have great sound.

I must misunderstand this somehow. How do the mediabuttons on shoulders affect the sound in any way?

 

[Eight Bit]

I think that DEAD KEY DIACRITICS (like Meta+' for the acute accent) is better than having a key/LABEL with ö, ü, ä, etc. Even I think people watching those LABELS on the keyboard may be frightened thinking it is a local product only for one language.


I think no one gets frightened watching ´ ¨ like 2nd symbols (the same way we watch [ ] { } ^ etc), but watching ö, ü, ä, etc, seems like a local product, not a neutral/international product for all latin alphabets.


I think a neutral way to include all or most of the latin alphabets with dead key diacritics is the better way, because it is neutral and capable for near all latin alphabets language. And if needed, we can have optional language layouts via software, where one can change the layout and have for example dedicated ö, ü, ä without dead key use.


PD: I am Spaniard and we use á é í ó ú really a lot of because that accent indicates the pitch accent in a fixed rules, and all those are entered via dead key. If I see a keyboard with ñ and ç I know it is Spanish, but if it a keyboard instead have no local symbols but optional diacritics ~ ¨ etc, I see it like neutral.

My proposal (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/f9f3508ae2ea1ed6de939d0100173675) does not have explicit labels for dead diacritics (to keep things simple), but it does have dead diacritics by default.

It has a dedicated key for quote / double quote ( ' / " ), and this key does not have any Meta labels, since it is meant to be a dead acute accent (áéíóú) and umlaut (äëïöü) when used with Meta. My backtick and tilde (` ~) are on Meta positions, and the idea is that they can be used as dead grave accent (àèìòù) and dead tilde (ñõ) when used with Meta+Shift. Also Meta+comma is available for cedilla or ogonek (çşąęįų).

Any Latin-based letter with diacritics can be entered in just two thumb-presses in this way (since Meta and Shift are available as shoulder buttons, so no thumb travel is needed for those). Or in three thumb-presses if you use the Compose key method (e.g. Compose " U for Ü, Compose A E for Æ).

For comparison, on the Pandora the situation was much worse. The Pandora does not have Fn on a shoulder button, and it does not have dead diacritics. So to type é on the Pandora, you need at least four thumb presses: Shift-Enter (L1+Enter) for Compose, then Fn, then A (for '), then E.

I like your proposal but I would put the 2nd meta key on the bottom right corner like on the pandora.

The [,;] and [.:] I would put in the bottom left corner (also like on the pandora) and the [' "] can then go underneath the enter key.

That way there´s one meta key for the left hand (shoulder button) and a meta key for the right hand next to the space bar.

Should I make my own version of _wb_'s proposal? I think I would also change the brightness keys to meta and insert/delete as regular.

 

[comradekingu]

To the people who care about sound, audiophiles or objectivists or whatnot, two things matter.

• How good is the sound coming out of the device, perceived or not,

and what they have in common:

• how managable are the media-controls.

Spoiler

In the price-range of the pyra, if the sound is good enough, you will still sell buckets to either, but it can be _the_ device for this whole market. Its not like these people want to carry around specialized "mp3-players" Or bear the burden of dedicated DAC / amplifier to go with their cellphone. One of the last strongholds of dedicated machinery, but for no good reason.  Compare it to how the openpandora at first was a dedicated gaming-machine, but got more laptop as time went by.

With time all things you need merge into one device.

Spoiler

What the pyra isnt is a camera, and i think thats good. It could cater to the professional photographers who have cameras where the Wifi-functionality isnt good, which is all of them.

Implying Shift does shift, AltGr does third level modifier, and what triggers mediabuttons really only has one job in triggering F-keys,

You dont need two presses, and not for a whole lot, ctrl+alt, being the standard alternative way to do dead-keys, is available as two shoulders, which can be done simultaniously, or by pressing ctrl+alt in the column-row, which is a combo press since you can type both keys at once.

You can further reduce the need for dead-keys by having the dedicated language cluster available.

Spoiler

http://core0.staticworld.net/images/article/2014/03/6gv2_1160-100251016-orig.pngis something a lot of keyboards do. It replaces here the left windowsbutton to get away from accidentally windowing out while gaming, but its a non-intrusive way of adding functionality.

With the other trend in keyboards being no-dedicated F-keys, you implement them often by "Fn" which confuses hardware-functions like brightness with F-keys. We dont have to do that, because we have enough keys to do dedicated harware-functions.

 

[Eight Bit]

Wb: The problem with putting meta on a shoulder is that you cant then use the shoulders as mediabuttons. Meta is the hack, and thus, it should be free to use in conjunction with shoulders.

I think the only viable shoulder buttons for media player control are L2 and R2 as the corner buttons will be pressed too easily when the pyra is in a pocket I think. Maybe meta and shift need to be switched in _wb_'s proposal?