I'm worried about the Pyra's market performance.

[levi]

No, they were all running fedora core or debian I recall. I'm not daft enough to try to build big things using windows!

 

[Kelvin]

Well, for how much I use my Pandora when I'm on the go, it would be really useful to have something I can play PC games on without the need for wifi, so that's another score for Pyra. That and, should I be so inclined, I could boot Android on it, too. There actually are a few Android games I enjoy and wouldn't mind trying to see if they work with physical controls, though honestly, I think they'd be way better on PC, given that a couple are more traditional games and another is a P0rtal clone.

Besides, we already got us a reimp of the Goldsource engine that I've had running at 45Hz on Pandora with 600MHz clockspeed, so I'll definitely enjoy that as well.

Oh, and didn't Unreal go open-source? Maybe some Unreal games could come to it, too. :3

 

[oskda]

780$ is a steep price, ....

Of course it is a lot of money, but there is nothing like this machine, really nothing And building so few units make it more expensive.

I have looked at GPD Win, and it has its good points:

1/ Cheap (340$).

2/ Intel x86 and Windows if you like/need this.


But it has very big drawbacks, some of them unforgivable:

1/ The worst: totally no ergonomic keyboard design in a few ways:

keys are put together ones with others, while when you have small keys it is better to leave space between (in this way, when you press a key, you won't press the next keys).

Size and position of keys and 2 additional right vertical rows: you can not reach central keys in good way while holding machine with hands and typing with thumbs, as it is too big, and even worse, additional right vertical rows make you can not reach some keys handled with right hand.

In this thread https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/gpd-win-x86-computer-palmtop.76762/page-19#post-1367644
you can see how bad you reach central keys with hands:

(Watch how far is right thumb from H key, a key usually managed with right hand).

Compare with Pyra:

In this thread http://boards.dingoonity.org/gpd-windows-devices/gpd-win-on-indiegogo/90/
you can see the nosense of GDP Win keyboard with 2 additional rows on right side (right thumb can not reach most keys usually managed with right hand).

¿What the point is to do a keyboard that is near useless? ¿Is it only a machine to play?

2/ No backlight keyboard. For me this is unforgivable in a pocket mobile computer.

I have own a Sharp Zaurus pocket computer for years, and it has a excellent keyboard (for thumb use), but it has no backlight, so I can't use it in a lot of environments (so I know this problem).

A mobile phone or a pocket computer are so mobile devices, you end using then in a lot of different places, some of which doesn't have enough light to operate keyboard without backlight, so backlithing keyboard IS A MUST in mobile devices.

What the point is to have a pocket mobile device you can't use in some places because it has no light on keyboard?

3/ No removable battery.
This is double unforgivable from my point of view.

First, what happens when battery is low? With a removable battery you can have a second internal battery ready (even you can charge this second battery outside), you change it in seconds and no problem; With a non removable battery you are dead: you need to connect it to a mains adapter or to an external USB battery.

And, sorry, but using a mobile device on the go with an USB external battery attached is a nightmare.

Even in my own house I near never use mobile phone attached to mains because it is very awkward (I love mobile phones with removable battery, like LG G5; I know G5 may be the last one high-end mobile with removable battery, so it is even more valuable).

The other point: what happens when internal battery is old? You need to disassemble your machine, and pry to insert a new one if you can without broking your machine, while in Pyra you only change the removable battery without problem because it is designed to be easy removable without tools.

4/ A fan inside a pocket device. GDP Win and GDP Pocket have fan inside. Sorry, but I don't want a fan inside a pocket computer.

5/ Upgradability: GDP has no upgradability (even battery is non removable!). It is "use x years (with x not so bigger), and throw away to buy next model", while Pyra is upgradable: you will can upgrade CPU board (containing SOC/eMMC/RAM... components, so you upgrade all those components changing CPU borad), so you will have a "new" Pyra at low cost only changing CPU board, while with GDP you need a new machine.

Sometimes an item initially is cheaper, ends being more expensive because big bad points or no upgradability options.



I have looked GPD Pocket too, and I saw something real terrible: as you know both GPD machines (Win and Pocket) have a fan inside; Have you seen where they have put fan exhaust? I show you:

It is in the bottom right side, so when you use Pocket in hand you will get your right hand scalded, or fan exhaust blocked and your right hand burnt.

GDP Win has it fan exhaust with the same problem but in left side: https://liliputing.com/2016/11/gpd-win-handheld-gaming-pc-partial-teardown.html
So you block it with left hand while holding GDP Win, and you receive hot air in that hand. With right hand you block GDP Win mono speaker. A double bad design.

How no ergonomic mind had this Chinese designers so they put fan exhaust exactly where you will put your hand to hold the machine? What nosense! Fan exhaust should be located in the rear side in mu opinion, so it doesn't disturb nor burn user hands.


I don't know if Pyra will achieve all my requirements (although now it achieve a lot of them), and I will wait to see final units (thermal problems, etc), but I know GDP Win/Pocket doesn't achieve basic requirements (keyboard, backlight, removable battery, fan exhaust position).


On other side, I think Pyra will be a bit less expensive (only a bit) on future batch, as it happened with Pandora.

 

[Binky]

Have you seen where they have put fan exhaust? I show you:

Also look at the various other sockets. How am I supposed to use a hand-held device when there is a USB memory stick, a charging cable and a headphone wire all going straight through my hand?

 

[Klumpen]

780$ is a steep price, and having discussed the Pyra on various subreddits, lots of people have told me the same thing. They all say that it looks like an awesome little device, but most seem worried that it won't be worth the price, and I'm worried that it might not survive long when competitors like the GPD Win are only asking 340$ (on other sites), less than half the Pyra's final cost for the highest tier version. Sure the standard version without extra ram is about 200$ cheaper, but still much higher than GPD Win's.

If demand for the Pyra were higher, they could produce more units and make them cheaper, but there isn't enough developer support. Game devs are the driving force for a platform's demand, and if there aren't enough big names supporting it, people aren't going to want to buy it, which means keeping the price high.

Honestly, I've even been thinking myself about how many of the games I like won't be available for it unless we can convince more developers to work with it, but could it already be too late? I don't want to cancel my preorder, but I'm also getting worried that I'm not going to be getting my money's worth with this thing, being on such a tight budget and all. I've been saving up for it, but if I canceled, I could get a GPD Win and just install Debian on that.

I love my Pandora, and I wanna love the Pyra, but that price is starting to scare me.

iPhone 7 Plus - 256GB Edition = $969
High production numbers, huge profit margin, nobody cares about working conditions, expensive peripherals, very limited functionality hard- and softwarewise, etc...
and yet many people think it's "worth" it.

So forgive me for always laughing a bit when people complain about the actually cheap price of the Pyra.

 

[vcoleiro1]

Actually the fan exhaust is at the front on the WIN so it doesn't blow on your hand. Even then, the air coming out is hardly anything that would burn. Fan is also on the left side as you hold it, not the right.

That said, it would be nice to have a removable battery when charge runs out. A removable battery is definately a plus for the Pyra

You can reach the centre of the keyboard on the WIN. The keys are too small IMO though. The spaced layout on the Pyra should make it easier to type on

 

[oskda]

Also look at the various other sockets. How am I supposed to use a hand-held device when there is a USB memory stick, a charging cable and a headphone wire all going straight through my hand?

Yes, that is other problem in GPD Pocket, although I suppose usually people would use it without USB stick.

I remember when all notebooks had fan exhaust and near all connectors (except speakerphone) in the back side. From years ago they change it to put fan exhaust and all connections on the sides, so it disturb a lot in your desk
Even in the past notebooks had removable battery, and now the trend is fixed battery. At least you usuarlly doesn't hold a notebook with hands in the air, but a GPD Pocket will be used holding with hands in the air a lot of times so here it is worse.
[doublepost=1492376283,1492372703][/doublepost]

Actually the fan exhaust is at the front on the WIN so it doesn't blow on your hand. Even then, the air coming out is hardly anything that would burn. Fan is also on the left side as you hold it, not the right.

GPD Pocket has fan exhaust on the left side (although it is no final version), and as I read GPD Win has small exhaust on the left front and big fan exhaust on left side ( http://manguiro.blogspot.com.es/2016/12/review-gpd-win-z8700.html this review is in Spanish but is the more complete review I have found searching for "review"), so you can block this with left hand while holding it, receiving direct hot air in your hand and reducing fan exhaust a lot of (the front exhaust is much much smaller, really it seems an air ventilation more than fan exhaust).

GDP Win Small exhaust/vent on front left (this is not fan main/real exhaust):

GDP Win Bigger fan exhaust on bottom left side (this is real fan exhaust):

where originally would be left speaker. It is a bad design for fan exhaust (originally it was left speaker aperture, no a fan exhaust; in GPD exhaust is better as it is though as fan exhaust from the beginning, although in bad position for user hand).

GDP Win air intake is in the bottom:

You can look inside GDP WIN:

and you see how fan is on the left side, no front side (it is far from front side and there are components in that way).


About temperature: playing, CPU can reach 79C, so I suspect air will be quite hot, not pleasant in your left hand while holding machine. http://www.ultrabookreview.com/14380-gpd-win-review/


On other side, with right hand holding GPD Win you block mono speaker :O

So with one hand you block speaker, with the other fan main exhaust.

PD: I correct my original text to note fan main exhaust is on left (not right side).

 

[levi]

If I were going to buy a GPD Pocket at the moment (I've not ruled it out, I'll just wait until it's clear the usual GPD manufacturing faults aren't a showstopper), I wouldn't be planning to use it handheld, just like I've never used my 9" eeepc hand-held, typing with my thumbs. I've only ever used that on a laptop tray or those little fold out tables on the train.

 

[vcoleiro1]

@oskda
The exhaust is at the front of the WIN, the redundant speaker holes on the left side(as you hold it) which they left to aid air flow, don't really let anything out. What you end up with is a tiny airflow from the front exhaust. At max fan speed, you can barely notice it by putting a piece of paper in front of it. It isn't going to come close to burning you.


Under load the WIN does get warm at the bottom middle of the case though , but not burning hot . Just noticablly warm

 

[oskda]

@oskda
The exhaust is at the front of the WIN, the redundant speaker holes on the left side(as you hold it) which they left to aid air flow, don't really let anything out. What you end up with is a tiny airflow from the front exhaust. At max fan speed, you can barely notice it by putting a piece of paper in front of it. It isn't going to come close to burning you.


Under load the WIN does get warm at the bottom middle of the case though , but not burning hot . Just noticablly warm

You may be right, but in this complete review http://manguiro.blogspot.com.es/2016/12/review-gpd-win-z8700.html
they say small front exhaust is a ventilation exhaust, and left side exhaust is air ventilation exhaust (and that review is very deep).

In any way, now I observe the real problem: GDP Win is a real botched job: initially it wasn't going to have a fan; After design was done they observe a fan was required to meet expected performance, so they added a vent where they can without too much work: they remove left speaker and put a fan in that place.

And they did it in a horrible way: a fan blowing air from bottom aperture (circular one under case) to inside case, so hot air is directed inside case and it gets out by any other hole (after warming machine inside).

A good designed fan system for a "notebook" should take hot air by directly out of machine, helped by air guides if necessary. In this way GDP Pocket will be much better done, because it has fan system made from begining: heatpipe and a fan blowing air from inside directly out by heatpipe, like in a notebook https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-med...it,w_620/v1484737248/lelrexmjhu9oazwfghrn.jpg
The problem on GDP Pocket is that air exhaust is in the bottom right side, so you will block it with your hand while holding machine (and all hot air will get out by that side, so it will be warmer).

GPD Win has a very very bad fan design, and GDP Pocket has a good fan/heatpipe system but with hot air outlet in a very uncomfortable position for user (left side where it will be blocked by your hand). On both cases: very bad design.

 

[Grench]

At least it wasn't designed by HP or it would do this to your hands:

I'm actually a big fan of HP's Z workstation line. But - their art department needs some work. For a few years they shipped one of these with every keyboard. WTF?

 

[second exodous]

@ Kelvin or anyone else that doesn't think the Pyra is worth it:

I think the Pyra will be much more of a value than the Pandora simply because of it's scope. I was watching a talk by ED where he was explaining the Pandora group was designing purely a game console, nothing else, the keyboard was just there so emulate classic PCs of the past and Linux was there just because it was easy to port emulators to the device. I remember this in the early development days of the Pandora, people, I was included, wanted a minimum 800x600 screen so it could be used as a normal computer and there was a huge wave of 'that would cost too much, none of the computers of yesteryear had such a high resolution so the screen resolution is adequate.' Seven years after the Pandora has been out ED realized that there are a ton of things the team didn't think was possible on the Pandora was being done. That was a lesson learned for the Pyra, people that will pay this much don't want to be constrained to games, if all you want is games then buy one of those android tablets with gaming controls. The added value of the a standard screen resolution, a video out that outputs to modern displays, the sim card slot for cellular connectivity, and a more main-stream Linux distro make it much more of a value than the Pandora was and any purely game console if you want to do more than game.

Think of a game console like a leisure device, a toy, and think of the Pyra as a productivity device.

iPhone 7 Plus - 256GB Edition = $969
High production numbers, huge profit margin, nobody cares about working conditions, expensive peripherals, very limited functionality hard- and softwarewise, etc...
and yet many people think it's "worth" it.

I wonder if there will ever be a time when these companies that produce electronics in such high volumes will ever make niche projects like the Pyra more popular. Maybe this was the case for the Pandora and Pyra, companies got so greedy that a device that costs them a few hundred dollars to make yet they sell it for so much make people say 'well, $780 isn't that bad for they Pyra'.