I wonder what is the point of having top of the chart processing power?

[overgauss]

I suspect they call these ES chips because, as Levi mentioned, it seems very common for bugs to show up in the chip lifetime, branding them as ES almost certainly allows the manufacturer protection from that.

I agree. In my investigation I came to the conclusion that TI isn't using the term ES like the rest of the processor industry. I got the distinct impression that they were pulling naming convention shennaniganery and the whole thing smells fishy. I'm going to call TI later and ask for clarification on the matter. Before I call if you all have questions you'd like clarified please feel free to post them.


It's true thst as Craigix stated and others you can find ES2.1 (or so) being used in Beagle Boards and Archos devices. I'm not sure of the advantage of using them for the months in advance of MP chips if everyone else is doing the same, considering they are labeled as ES due to resident bugs. I get it for prototyping etc but beating a MP chip to market with an ES chip just seems to be problematic and a potential source of user frustration. Plus there's all the work needed to fix the bugs etc. I'll stop now.


Self note: Liability

 

[craigix]

Some people just need to have all the power asap - and, for example, if we said the new xxx ES chip runs dreamcast perfectly and Linux/android seems fine a lot of people would buy it.


Many hardware geeks understand quirks and issues are normal in cutting edge tech.

 

[overgauss]

Hrrm. Now I have a few questions:


Are there any savings passed on to the consumer when ES chips are used?


Are the ES chips a special offering to those that want cutting edge now? Kind of like for those with the overclocker mentality? The OCers would buy ES units? Or is it more like the ES units are the first wave of offerings with MP to follow, then when the new ESs are available another batch is created for the hardware geek?


I definitely can see a hardware geek getting the newest ES hotness. Frankly I must admit that I would consider it as well. That said is there going to be a distinction made so that the common user may make an informed decision, or is everybody getting the same thing at first?


Thank you for your time.

 

[levi]

Hmm, ES chips are what they say they are - engineering samples. They're for engineers to use to design a board around while the chip firm works out any bugs. It's my understanding there are likely to be bugs in the first samples, so I wouldn't want one of those. But if, having sampled a later revision the engineer can't find any bugs that can't be worked around for his/her needs, I guess they can use them in end products then.

 

[overgauss]

I agree. That said these particular ES chips are being sold in consumer devices for reasons that Craigix mentioned. However big cpu manufacturers lend ES out with either an NDA, an agreement to return the chip after development, and prohibit resale of them or use in consumer devices. This is vastly different than how TI works it appears. Obligatory but what do I know?

 

[craigix]

Samsung ES chips have ended up in devices too.

Hmm, ES chips are what they say they are - engineering samples. They're for engineers to use to design a board around while the chip firm works out any bugs. It's my understanding there are likely to be bugs in the first samples, so I wouldn't want one of those. But if, having sampled a later revision the engineer can't find any bugs that can't be worked around for his/her needs, I guess they can use them in end products then.

But the first 4000 Pandoras used ES chips. You can't really come to market early without using them - the reason the bugs are eventually found is because they are out there and being used.


I'm certain most people just won't care much as long as the apps and emulators they want work without issue (look at the Pandora).

 

[xiongxioi]

Samsung ES chips have ended up in devices too.

Hmm, ES chips are what they say they are - engineering samples. They're for engineers to use to design a board around while the chip firm works out any bugs. It's my understanding there are likely to be bugs in the first samples, so I wouldn't want one of those. But if, having sampled a later revision the engineer can't find any bugs that can't be worked around for his/her needs, I guess they can use them in end products then.

But the first 4000 Pandoras used ES chips. You can't really come to market early without using them - the reason the bugs are eventually found is because they are out there and being used.


I'm certain most people just won't care much as long as the apps and emulators they want work without issue (look at the Pandora).

I can't agree with that any more. So long as the P2 can emulate N64, DC, and those arcade machines; no complain I got here. Through, would that make the initial production a bit costy?


I want to know if the failure rate is any how related to the chips. The CC incident can't all because they are just unprofessional chimps right?


Can those ES chips lead to that ridiculously high failure rate?


Before burn me on stakes, I know the only way to make sure we don't take this risk is to let all other companies implementing them before we do. That would be kinda bad.


Just trying to get the idea out here.

 

[EvilDragon]

No, the failure rate with the ES is the same. There simply are bugs in the SoCs, but that doesn't affect population.


Besides, most of the issues CC had when populating the boards were not

SoC issues. First there were obvious things like parts missing, later on (most of the failures) because the PCBs were too old and had oxidized contacts.

 

[xiongxioi]

Thanks for the reply ED, also Craigix, that really eased a lot of worries. I have confidence in you and the rest of the OPT, just go ahead and make your dream machine come true.


I hope the ICP 2 would turn out to be a great success.

 

[DAP]

oxidized

Finally! (sorry, "Oxidated" was driving me nuts.)

 

[Christoph.Krn]

Usually, a device with a lot of functionality doesn't sell well in a mass consumer market, as it's too complicated - but it sells well within a niche (see the N900 for example).

Some information on the sales of the N900.

 

[craigix]

Usually, a device with a lot of functionality doesn't sell well in a mass consumer market, as it's too complicated - but it sells well within a niche (see the N900 for example).

Some information on the sales of the N900.

Those numbers are much higher than I expected, you would think you would see a much more active community if there were millions of them out there. Maybe many people just bought them, used them for a few months and forgot about it.

 

[rohezal]

Maybe many people just bought them, used them for a few months and forgot about it.

Most people buy something and play with it. Nintendo sold almost 100.0000.000 Wiis. But a small percentage wrote in forums about it. Only geeks / nerds go to forums and write about the stuff . And if you buy it in a shop, there is no direkt link between community and device. I don't think they used it for a few month. Probably they used it more time, but just used it and not wrote over it.

 

[Christoph.Krn]

Those numbers are much higher than I expected, you would think you would see a much more active community if there were millions of them out there.

You probably have a favorite search engine. Using it to search for "Nokia N9 outsold all Lumias" might cause a case of surprise.


Also, of course end-users want features too: Simplicity Is Highly Overrated. (...and then, the people in charge at Nokia decided to replace their own Linux-based system with a more wildly used, less open alternative. The end!)

 

[bismuthdrummer]

Edit:


And apologies to Bismuth too as I commented on something I didn't understand after asking him not to.

I can only guess you mean the "bleeding edge" quote?


Already I stated I don't have technical knowledge in this department and can therefore only go off what I have understood from reading.


What makes you dense is not your arguments in favor of Craig's side, but your inability to grasp my ad-nauseum-repetitive point that his two posts I first criticized did not explain these things.


Next time it's easier just to say things like "the first 4k Pandoras shipped with engineering samples" up front. Rather than ignore and spin someone's point to win a fight that isn't there.


I wasn't fighting you on the content, I never even gave my opinion as a layman on the matter, but I might as well be speaking to Quixote... disingenuous apology declined.

 

[overgauss]

Next time it's easier just to say things like "the first 4k Pandoras shipped with engineering samples" up front. Rather than ignore and spin someone's point to win a fight that isn't there.

I have no idea what you're talking about. You just blamed me for spinning some point you made, but didn't make, and fault me for not saying the first 4k Pandoras shipped with engineering samples WHEN THIS IS THE FIRST I HEARD OF IT! Go back a page and show me where there was ANY indication that I knew that 4k P1s shipped with ES samples? You blame me for shit but you can't even follow the conversation well enough to realize I was talking about using ES in P2's. I even said it would be unethical to use an ES in a consumer product and was corrected by Craigix. So how could I possibly know that 4k pandoras shipped previously with ES chips then claim it's unethical to use for P2?


Man. Maybe you should get laid or something because that's just unbalanced behaviour. I mean here you are calling me names because you misread something I wrote. Continued to call me names and you never apologised after (hopefully) realizing your mistake. Sad thing is you've done this more than once. I think this is the second time I've apologized to you and this is the best way, that you as a grown ass man can behave.


So keep calling me what ever you want to. But when a day comes that I'm sick of your lip don't start crying to mods when I tell you how I really feel.


edit 11-20:

Edit:


And apologies to Bismuth too as I commented on something I didn't understand after asking him not to.

I can only guess you mean the "bleeding edge" quote?

Nope. I was referring to this.

If you don't understand the benefit of working with next gen SoC samples before they are released so that when the product is released it is months ahead of current mass production SoC's then maybe you should reduce your scope to things you actually understand.

Looks like the SoC isn't the only thing that's bleeding edge.

 

[Wally]

Can we get back on topic please?

 

[bismuthdrummer]

Spoiler

I have no idea what you're talking about. You just blamed me for spinning some point you made, but didn't make, and fault me for not saying the first 4k Pandoras shipped with engineering samples WHEN THIS IS THE FIRST I HEARD OF IT! Go back a page and show me where there was ANY indication that I knew that 4k P1s shipped with ES samples? You blame me for shit but you can't even follow the conversation well enough to realize I was talking about using ES in P2's. I even said it would be unethical to use an ES in a consumer product and was corrected by Craigix. So how could I possibly know that 4k pandoras shipped previously with ES chips then claim it's unethical to use for P2?


Man. Maybe you should get laid or something because that's just unbalanced behaviour. I mean here you are calling me names because you misread something I wrote. Continued to call me names and you never apologised after (hopefully) realizing your mistake. Sad thing is you've done this more than once. I think this is the second time I've apologized to you and this is the best way, that you as a grown ass man can behave.


So keep calling me what ever you want to. But when a day comes that I'm sick of your lip don't start crying to mods when I tell you how I really feel.

Well I do I have to admit that I was mistaken about his apology -- it sounded like his usual hyperbolic stuff. I interpreted it as "my apologies for doing X when bismuthdrummer did X", so a faux apology because I was hypocritical. The rest of his post sounded sarcastic. It certainly seemed to fit his character (as depicted in other posts, many of which he has deleted...). Sorry, I was wrong on what he meant.


The "next time" comment was not meant to quote Overgauss, I typically link to the post when I do... I just recalled it as an argument for Craig's side, an unintentional misquote there. Point was that arguments for top of the charts power should have been laid out way earlier in the discussion, rather than debunking everyone's perception of Craig, which he has earned.


As for the topic, well... the last I understood OPT will be using cutting edge stuff because the price is roughly the same or not much more, and the return draw from developers and new Pandorians will pay off. So we will be using top of the charts processing power because that does fit our niche. Not sure how accurate my perception is, or that this needs to be drawn out any further... and besides I don't think OPT is looking for a community opinion on this. But, I would defer to more knowledgeable members (or at least the original poster) on whether the question has really been answered.


Personally my interest in this has faded from attempting to correct severe misstatements and getting roped into the usual rigamarole.

 

[WizardStan]

the last I understood OPT will be using cutting edge stuff because the price is roughly the same or not much more, and the return draw from developers and new Pandorians will pay off.

This is the part I'm a little incredulous suspicious about. "not much more" is very relative. So maybe a bigger LCD is only a few dollars more, and a faster CPU is only a few dollars more, and maxing out the RAM is only a few dollars more, but all those "few dollars" adds up. If the thing you're left with is tweaked all out but costs 25% more than something not-tweaked-out-but-still-good-enough then you're going to get people complaining about paying for features that you don't really need. That's not to say that it shouldn't be done, just that it should be considered, discussed, and balanced, not just accepted because "the best is the best and we want the best period no discussion".


edit: not a suitable word choice.

 

[Exophase]

I think some people here might not understand what an engineering sample is. It's exactly as the name suggests - a device a company gives out for free, in low quantity, in order to evaluate a product for the purposes of engineering development. If they're selling you a thousand of them it isn't an engineering sample, regardless of whatever serial name the thing has. Even if they made a bunch of chips with the intention of using them as engineering samples then started selling them after deciding they were good enough and they don't have enough demand for samples.


You could ask for engineering samples and go around and sell a small handful of modules using them, but the company isn't going to keep giving you them. Expecting to get them in quantity before competitors can or are willing to is naive.