possible soc updates.


@God Ginrai

Don't know why you say the Pandora should only be a gaming handheld, it has always been a Linux UMPC & Gaming handheld.  I made the point that it's not pushed enough as a UMPC and that most people only see it as a gaming handheld which is a problem. The fact that you see it only as a gaming handheld seems to emphasize that issue.
 Because the Pandora was designed as a gaming handheld. It was the spiritual successor to the GP2X. The keyboard was added for better PC emulation. The OMAP that makes it as powerful as it is was chosen to secure PSX emulation and open up the possibility of N64 emulation. Just because these extra capabilities allowed it to be used as a UMPC as well does not mean that it is or ever has been the system's main focus.

Shouldn't this be enough to at least play some closed source games?
Not the games Grench wants. But Grench's point about "which is easier to emulate" doesn't matter, because neither of them could be emulated at decent speeds, so it's a wash.

I hate how this forum blends multiple posts together into ONE message - those were meant to be two separate messages to two different sub-strings within this thread.  Sorry.  Row of **********s added for separation of conversations.
So you're doing this shit on purpose? You're a jerk.

-God Ginrai
 
That means that in a single threaded test that the Z3770 performed roughly 17.6 times faster than the original Pandora's SoC did 3 years ago?  
You still don't get it, do you? It means basically the same as running SMS emulator without speed limits on Z3770 gave 17.6 times more fps than running N64 on pandora.
 
That means that in a single threaded test that the Z3770 performed roughly 17.6 times faster than the original Pandora's SoC did 3 years ago?  
You still don't get it, do you? It means basically the same as running SMS emulator without speed limits on Z3770 gave 17.6 times more fps than running N64 on pandora.
It isn't THAT bad.  They're the same benchmarks, run at different times on different hardware - but they were the closest thing that I could find at that time.  Please, if you can do better - do.   Here is a pile of benchmarks run on the Z3770:

http://us.hardware.info/reviews/4792/intel-atom-z3770-lbay-trailr-review-strong-competition-for-arm

PLEASE - find one or more that can run on the Pandora that you would consider fair?

Is there any prospect of getting real, useful benchmarks?
It would take a miracle.
 
Simple question:

What emulator or program is there on x86 that you don't have on ARM?

I'm not missing a single one.

Don't expect to play modern PC games, as they are not optimized for small screens and even if they run, they wouldn't be any fun.

Most emulators (SNES, PSP, NDS, etc.) are much more optimized on ARM than on x86.

This doesn't only mean some won't be playable anymore (like PSP or NDS), but even the ones that are available for both ARM and x86 will would be better on ARM.

Why? Due to the optimization, they need less power. So playing the same emulators in fullspeed on ARM would give you a longer battery time.

Would you rather have a successor that plays everything we have optimized on the Pandora right out of the box (and a lot more, thanks to increased CPU power) incl. all Android games (even the new ones) or a successor that doesn't run any of our optimized stuff, mostly has emulators with fiddly menus for a small screen (like SNES9x), runs PC games (that aren't optimized for a small screen either) but doesn't run Android games?
 
mostly has emulators with fiddly menus for a small screen (like SNES9x),
Oh, I didn't even think of that. Using any of the emulators on an x86 Pandora would be akin to using the GUI for Mupen64plus on the Pandora. (in other words, a huge pain)

-God Ginrai
 
You still don't get it, do you? It means basically the same as running SMS emulator without speed limits on Z3770 gave 17.6 times more fps than running N64 on pandora.
It isn't THAT bad.  They're the same benchmarks, run at different times on different hardware
It is. Even if the name is the same, and only version number differs, they are completely different programs running totally different code.

PLEASE - find one or more that can run on the Pandora that you would consider fair?
It's a difficult problem really, I'd say it's impossible to have it really fair. The closest I can think of is taking source code of something written in C without platform specific stuff, compiling it with some fixed version of GCC and fixed compiler flags for both ARM and x86 and running that on the same OS. Some emulators wouldn't be a bad choice, perhaps something like mainline snes9x or bsnes, after taking out video and audio output (but leaving all emulation intact) to negate effects of video/audio driver quality and then measuring fps. Even test like this would be badly skewed by things like quality of C library, quality of GCC's ARM/x86 code generation (which is traditionally better on x86), also the OS kernel itself, but that would be much more fair then those popular apple-orange benchmarks.
 
Ed, you do have a very very valid point there. X86 programs are likely to drain battery faster, and they have worse menus.

Even if x86 is subjectively better than arm by a bit, these things will drag the user experience down a notch.

It is possible that with time, people would improve on that, however, the x86 retro community is very different from our own. ARM community is used to squeeze out the last drop of power from even the weakest handhelds. (even graphics calculators)

X86 programs are more towards: "take it or leave it, if it doesn't run well, you need to upgrade your machine." kind of attitude.

Pandora will always be centered around emulating obscure games to their maximum. Sure, having some other functionalities are nice, but those are just icing on the cake. If someone only like to eat sweet things, then they should go and buy some ice cream, rather than demanding all cakes to have layers of icing that are 40mm thick. Even I'm the first one to state that pandora 2 should be marketed as an umpc to justify its price tag; realistically speaking, nether do we have the resources like sony nor are we able to compete with the Chinese in a price war. It is still too early for that. Stick to the basics, avoiding risks, and manage p2 well. If it performs nicely, then we can go from there.

The majority of our community are not crazed by intel and amd's marketing scandal. We really should not get too worked up on this issue as ED knows his job well and he's not that bloon headed craigix who needs to be nailed on the floor before floating to the moon and commit something stupid or funny. If x86 is really already subjectively marginally better than ARM in every aspect in its current state, then I believe ED will make the right choice.

PS: having a shallower and softer keyboard that can be typed on quickly, and keeping that awesome amplifier are all I would dream for P2. No need to try too hard to please people, because you can never please everyone.
 
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wow, you are as pleasant as an std.

Ed, you do have a very very valid point there. X86 programs are likely to drain battery faster, and they have worse menus. Even if x86 is subjectively better than arm by a bit, these things will drag the user experience down a notch.
 
jesus, the pandora runs xfce for god's sake! how much different is xfce on arm as is on x86?

It is possible that with time, people would improve on that, however, the x86 retro community is very different from our own. ARM community is used to squeeze out the last drop of power from even the weakest handhelds. (even graphics calculators) X86 programs are more towards: "take it or leave it, if it doesn't run well, you need to upgrade your machine." kind of attitude.
this is the most contrived notion I have ever seen, at the end of the day it is the experience that matters not the hardware.

The majority of our community are not crazed by intel and amd's marketing scandal.
what scandal? opensource gpu drivers? proper linux support? large market share? large s/w back catalog? 

If x86 is really already subjectively marginally better than ARM in every aspect in its current state, then I believe ED will make the right choice.
oh, with that said why doesn't he just shut down the p2 spam forum.

PS: having a shallower and softer keyboard that can be typed on quickly, and keeping that awesome amplifier are all I would dream for P2. No need to try too hard to please people, because you can never please everyone.
cat please everyone as long as they please you, great, got it 
 
Monstercameron, you are being rude. "Pleasant as an STD" because someone does not agree with you? 

Behave. Now.
 
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Simple question:


What emulator or program is there on x86 that you don't have on ARM?


I'm not missing a single one.


Don't expect to play modern PC games, as they are not optimized for small screens and even if they run, they wouldn't be any fun.


Most emulators (SNES, PSP, NDS, etc.) are much more optimized on ARM than on x86.


This doesn't only mean some won't be playable anymore (like PSP or NDS), but even the ones that are available for both ARM and x86 will would be better on ARM.


Why? Due to the optimization, they need less power. So playing the same emulators in fullspeed on ARM would give you a longer battery time.


Would you rather have a successor that plays everything we have optimized on the Pandora right out of the box (and a lot more, thanks to increased CPU power) incl. all Android games (even the new ones) or a successor that doesn't run any of our optimized stuff, mostly has emulators with fiddly menus for a small screen (like SNES9x), runs PC games (that aren't optimized for a small screen either) but doesn't run Android games?
I'm missing an X86 Linux (not DOS) emulator so that I can play native X86 Linux games.  Neverwinter Nights, the 198 games and counting in the Steam catalog, SupertuxKart, etc...

How do you define 'modern' PC games?  The entire HalfLife series is 10+ years old.  So is Neverwinter Nights.  These should run fine on the Z3770.  Just examples.  

How do you figure they wouldn't be any fun?  Whether we go 1920x1080 or1280x720, the screen for a Pandora successor will likely be larger (5"?) and much higher resolution.  Yes, text is going to be tiny - but very sharp.  Neverwinter Nights has a setting for 'large fonts' for high resolution screens.  The on-screen chat in Half-life might be a pain - but who chats a lot in an FPS?  If it's really an issue of needing to read the text, run at half-resolution and the fonts get bigger.through scaling.  Both NWN and steam FPS games can be configured to play via joysticks - and work quite well.  I've done it using a simple logitech controller for both.  Again, just examples.

The vast majority of the games currently played via emulators on the Pandora were designed for much larger screens - but at really low resolutions.  Of course the fonts on those are going to be 'larger'.

Most emulators being more optimized for ARM than on x86 is simply a case of invention following necessity.  Would the optimizations even be needed on a Z3770 platform - or would it simply work?

Would  you like (list of positives for ARM) or (list of negatives for X86).

*The Pandora successor will have a different SoC than the Pandora - regardless  of X86 or ARM.  Assuming that everything will be optimized right out of the box is a bit of a stretch isn't it?

*'All Android Games' - Note that this same SoC runs Android too.

http://us.hardware.info/reviews/4792/11/intel-atom-z3770-lbay-trailr-review-strong-competition-for-arm-android-benchmarks-antutu-3x

*Doesn't run our optimized stuff.  If something is optimized to the hardware layer - would it even run on another newer multi-core ARM SoC?

*mostly has emulators with fiddly menus for a small screen

Most of these emulators are open source, right?  Not to belittle the process, but how hard is it to change the presentation font for something that the source code is available for?

*runs PC games (that aren't optimized for a small screen either)

I think that this is way overblown.  Most of the games that the Z3770 would open up (not currently playable on any ARM) are from 2005 and earlier engines - such as Half Life 1&2 and derivatives, Neverwinter Nights 1, etc...  All of which are playable at resolutions from 320x480 through 1920x1080.  Heck, I even set up and played NWN on a 3 screen setup at 2700x1800, on Linux, and it ran fine.

*but doesn't run Android games

Check that again - the whole SoC can run Android native.  If that isn't enough, Intel released a native X86 Android emulator:

http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/24/3040706/intel-x86-image-for-android-ice-cream-sandwich-sdk

How about some X86 positives?

*4GB dual channel RAM

*Full video decode at hardware level

*64bit quad core X86 Linux handheld computer with gaming controls?  Yeah, sign me up.

*With this SoC, the Pandora successor could be a 64bit Ubuntu handheld console/computer.

*For the gamers/emulator crowd:  It could run pretty close to every game written prior to 2005.  With real gamer oriented controls, it would still blow away any other portable gaming alternative.  Play.  Anything.

*For professionals:  Your IT guy could install Windows 8 on it, lock it down all corporate, and you'd have the smallest laptop in the room/jet/bar.  Cool sales guy factor +6.

*Portable Steam Box console has to yield some sales credits.

ED, in the end it comes down to what you want to do.  If you tell me that the sound of an X86 SoC is simply too distasteful for  you to consider, then I'll stop.  I'm presenting this for consideration because it looks like Intel may have created something that fits every criteria I've seen presented for a Pandora successor SoC - except that it isn't ARM.  My thoughts are that this is cool enough that it deserves looking into with an open mind.

You're the one that would need to make contact with Intel to see if they're even willing or interested in supplying their SoC.  If you don't want to bother or consider it an option, then I'll let it go at that.
 
its not about disagreeing
Yes it is.

You may disagree with him. You may refute his arguments. You may not start calling him names.

Insults don't do any good to anyone.

If you object to someone as an entirety, please chalk it up to "another wierdo on the internet" - don't let us know about it!
 
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this same SoC runs Android
...but some Android apps use architecture-dependant system-features. Not everything happens in the virtual whatnot (experts, please correct my lamentable ignorance of terminology here)
*Doesn't run our optimized stuff. If something is optimized to the hardware layer - would it even run on another newer multi-core ARM SoC?
People have done optimisations using ARM asm and NEON code. That hasn't changed over the past few years. For example, DraStic's NEON stuff works on ARM chromebooks and modern smartphones. No NEON in x86.

*64bit quad core X86 Linux handheld computer
*With this SoC, the Pandora successor could be a 64bit Ubuntu handheld console/computer.
This is not an argument.

"Everyone should glue pink wings to their car because then they'd have a car with pink wings" is not an argument either.

*Full video decode at hardware level
I'm pretty sure this sort of thing is available on ARM chips too - isn't that how the RPi manages to decode HD video on worse CPU than the pandora's? - By using dedicated graphics hardware instead.
 
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I'm missing an X86 Linux (not DOS) emulator so that I can play native X86 Linux games.  Neverwinter Nights, the 198 games and counting in the Steam catalog, SupertuxKart, etc...
Well, all OpenSource Linux Games like SuperTuxKart is not something you can miss.

So it's only the Steam games and a few other closed source ones.

How do you define 'modern' PC games?  The entire HalfLife series is 10+ years old.  So is Neverwinter Nights.  These should run fine on the Z3770.  Just examples.
With modern, I mean current ones or max 1 - 2 years old

How do you figure they wouldn't be any fun?  Whether we go 1920x1080 or1280x720, the screen for a Pandora successor will likely be larger (5"?) and much higher resolution.  Yes, text is going to be tiny - but very sharp.
They often are optimized for mouse and keyboard usage, with tiny tiny fonts.

Even FreeCiv is not that much fun on the Pandora because controls have not been optimized and are Standard PC (Mouse / Keyboard).

With x86 closed source games, it CANNOT be optimized, and that's no fun.

Most emulators being more optimized for ARM than on x86 is simply a case of invention following necessity.  Would the optimizations even be needed on a Z3770 platform - or would it simply work?
They work, but aren't optimized and therefore use more CPU power (which means higher power usage).

NDS, for example, will not work at all. 

*The Pandora successor will have a different SoC than the Pandora - regardless  of X86 or ARM.  Assuming that everything will be optimized right out of the box is a bit of a stretch isn't it?
A CortexA15 is the same ARM architecture than a CortexA8, including stuff like NEON. So it IS possible to run current Pandora games and emulators without changing anything.

So all these optimizations will work right away.

You could run the very same OS with the very same PNDs on a CortexA15. Something that is not possible with x86.

So yes, we'd have a lot of optimized emulators right away.

*'All Android Games' - Note that this same SoC runs Android too.
Yes, it runs all Java games.

But it doesn't run any games that use compiled code - which is nearly the full game and apps library.

*Doesn't run our optimized stuff.  If something is optimized to the hardware layer - would it even run on another newer multi-core ARM SoC?
Yes, maybe with minor changes. It's still the same ARM Core and a compatible NEON extension.

See DraStic as example. Works fine with every Smartphone that has any Cortex SoC with NEON support.

*mostly has emulators with fiddly menus for a small screen

Most of these emulators are open source, right?  Not to belittle the process, but how hard is it to change the presentation font for something that the source code is available for?
It's not the font. It's using GTK / QT UI, which a window with menus.

On a console, I'd rather use the DPad and buttons to go through menus.

Yes, of course that can be added to the emulators. It was the same on the Pandora. But it would have to be redone again.

*but doesn't run Android games

Check that again - the whole SoC can run Android native.  If that isn't enough, Intel released a native X86 Android emulator:

http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/24/3040706/intel-x86-image-for-android-ice-cream-sandwich-sdk
Yep, and Windows RT runs a full Windows 8 on an ARM tablet - except that it can't run any Windows 8 x86 apps.

It's the same here, just vice versa. 

How about some X86 positives?

*4GB dual channel RAM
Which would need A LOT of power and drain the battery life even further.

*Full video decode at hardware level
Even the Pandora can decode Full HD H264 videos at hardware level using the DSP, but no one finished implementing that on the Pandora yet.

Besides, the codecs would need to be licensed, so it would not work at hardware level out of the box on x86 as well.

*64bit quad core X86 Linux handheld computer with gaming controls?  Yeah, sign me up.
8 core ARM Linux Handheld computer with gaming controls? I'd love that.

This is no positive aspect, it's just a statement ;)

*With this SoC, the Pandora successor could be a 64bit Ubuntu handheld console/computer.
Well, same with ARM. The only thing missing would be closed source games.

*For the gamers/emulator crowd:  It could run pretty close to every game written prior to 2005.  With real gamer oriented controls, it would still blow away any other portable gaming alternative.  Play.  Anything.
You'd gain PC games and you'd lose most Android and NDS games.

Is that a gain?

*For professionals:  Your IT guy could install Windows 8 on it, lock it down all corporate, and you'd have the smallest laptop in the room/jet/bar.  Cool sales guy factor +6.
Professionals don't use Win8 ;)

Jokes aside, Win8 needs a LOT of ressources. It would drain the battery probably within 2 hours, simply doing nothing.

*Portable Steam Box console has to yield some sales credits.
Well, you don't even know yet what the Steam Box Home console will be.

Maybe it will use ARM? 

ED, in the end it comes down to what you want to do.  If you tell me that the sound of an X86 SoC is simply too distasteful for  you to consider, then I'll stop.  I'm presenting this for consideration because it looks like Intel may have created something that fits every criteria I've seen presented for a Pandora successor SoC - except that it isn't ARM.  My thoughts are that this is cool enough that it deserves looking into with an open mind.
Well, we'd lose too much in my opinion.

Android games, NDS, Optimizations and our full Pandora software library, with all the small optimizations made in the last years to work properly on our little handheld.

And we'd get a system where the software is not much optimized for power usage or similar, since people simply would buy a new PC and don't care about power usage.

There definitely is too much we'd lose and too little we'd gain here.

I rather have a small and good community (as we are now) than thousands of buyers who would be disappointed because Win8 and their latest games would suck the battery dry in a couple of hours.
 
*Full video decode at hardware level
I'm pretty sure this sort of thing is available on ARM chips too - isn't that how the RPi manages to decode HD video on worse CPU than the pandora's? - By using dedicated graphics hardware instead.
Emulation often has tasks which can be given quite big boost with some concurrent DSP processing too. A DSP would not just be usable for decoding audio and video...

Adlib and Roland support in PC emulation, for example... would take some cycles out of the main CPU for sure. MUNT (/MT32EMU) currently pretty much needs it's own core in a PC.

Since I "don't do" consoles I don't know whether there would be a benefit for them, but I suspect there would...

Too bad adding some DSPs on a small device is both a powerdrain and a space issue. If the DSP were generic enough it might be usable in some other things too, like generating a steady stream of native code to run... but I don't really know how well that would pan out, I once worked with a device with which I was very tempted to try, but unfortunately (well... LOL, NOT really unfortunately, but you know what I mean...) my first daughter was born about the same time, so staying in the office after work playing with company toys was not OK at home... and obviously taking the gadget home was simply No Option.

Well, there is a precedent of this approach, in a way: Transmeta, I think, did something like this at some point? And if so, it could be labeled as "epic fail" :).

Anyway, point being: there are other ways to increase the user experience than more muscle in the main CPU. Since (I now actually read most of this thread...) good CPUs seem to be so hard to obtain, maybe we should settle for what is available and examine those other ways.

And also, point: the bugeyed nerd in me gets far more exited about ideas like this than about just having the plain old regular x86 instruction set emulation/translation within the main CPU taking up valuable transistors :p ...
 
Even the Pandora can decode Full HD H264 videos at hardware level using the DSP, but no one finished implementing that on the Pandora yet.
Ahhh... so it already has one then does it?-)

There goes most of what I just posted down the drain then.

It's in the SOC itself, or separate?

Maybe I can comment smarter when I finally get the Pandora (which incidentally has shipped today, after these nearly 5 years, thank you ED!!!-)
 
its not about disagreeing
Yes it is.

You may disagree with him. You may refute his arguments. You may not start calling him names.

Insults don't do any good to anyone.

If you object to someone as an entirety, please chalk it up to "another wierdo on the internet" - don't let us know about it!
Please apply the same moderation to post 321 from God Ginrai?

Thank you.
 
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