I wonder what is the point of having top of the chart processing power?


bismuthdrummer

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Bismouth you can't use bleeding edge as your argument and support it by a link to what Craigix said then turn around and say it's not relevant. You just can't do that.
I didn't say it was globally irrelevant. I am saying that is his position, and even if it wasn't his position, he still didn't answer the thread in those two posts that followed. Not every new device has specs at the top of the charts, you made this point yourself. So Craig's Zen response of "why does anyone advance" does not logically address the question. And my use of "bleeding edge" is irrelevant to this point. I am not clarifying this for you anymore.


You do have troubles understanding me, and while you did post good arguments they are quotes of what he has said and people have either disagreed with or found unsatisfactory. If they are logically satisfactory then Craig can just link to your post and be done with it.


But the bottom line here: you're overextending my argumentation into the guts of the matter. I don't know enough to argue this SoC versus that, or bleeding edge versus good enough. I came in on a point of process, and I will leave on that note as well.
 
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fusion_power

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Just let the community decide how the P2 should be, part for part. So if something goes wrong at the end, nobody can blame OP-Team but only himself. ;)
From what I've seen lately the community is tearing itself apart piece by piece :(
That's why the P2 should be modular, including a modular LCD piece, I've suggested this in another Thread. So there could be 2 different Pandora 2, Craig's expencive HD version and one cheaper version with Full SDs and lower res screen (same physical size of course). :)


And maybe one durable "full rugged" outdoor and Army proofed version for me. :D
 

overgauss

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Edit:


In response to

^ explain...

Like a battery extender module. A module with an extra battery that attaches below the brain board that trickle charges the resident battery on the brain board is what I'm guessing. If you had two such modules you could just keep one on the charger, then swap as needed without ever having to "charge" your P2 directly. I expect different versions of such modules. The slim versions would just be batteries. The expanded modules would have the battery and other goodies like extended memory (SD slots!) or someother wild upgrade.


iprice we're all just passionate and vocal about the Pandora dream. Some of us are like beneficial bacteria. When the host body takes note of the bacteria it spasms and says "ewww bacteria! Kill it with fire!" And the bacteria is like "bu-but we live in symbiosis! We handle vital functions and prevent you from getting sick from the bad bacteria. We need each other. I'm blueberry yoghurt you should love me...." But then the host body is all "Oh HELL NAW! You're trollteria masquerading as yoghurt, I can tell by your swaggah."


Rinse. Repeat.


2nd edit:


I would trade a quarter of the aft-most sub-cockle of my left gonad for a ruggadized pandy Fusion-Power.
 
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McLovin

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well, just split the 6mAh battery in 2 3mAh ones. Use one up before using the other and then switch.


I'd imagine some people would buy like 10 batterys for non-stop action on long trips ;)
 

Binky

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well, just split the 6mAh battery in 2 3mAh ones. Use one up before using the other and then switch.


I'd imagine some people would buy like 10 batterys for non-stop action on long trips ;)

If each battery were only 3mAh, they'd have to!


I'd have it so that there were two battery connectors on the underside of the P2, and one USB 3.0 connector (electrically, not mechanically) which supported reverse (slave to host) power supply. Then you could have two normal batteries (6Ah of pandorary goodness!) or one 3Ah battery and some weird USB power supply, or one 3Ah battery and a USB-based expansion module.
 

overgauss

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Bismuth your claim that Craigix's position has been repeatedly bleeding edge remains relevant because the claim is false. It's also relevant because top of the chart or bleeding edge SoC's is but one sub component of the unit and does not indicate that the entirety of the P2 will have this bleeding edge quality merely because the SoC does.


If I'm overextending your argument, clarify it and stick with it. It's hard to say he didn't answer you or provide you the reasons for his thought process when he most assuredly did. If you want to debate the SoC spec issue I'm game but you already quoted Ed. He said:

Well, I'm pretty sure we would choose the same SoC, as new SoCs usually won't cost more than a previous version.

The OMAP3 or DM3730 is just as expensive as a Cortex A9... so it wouldn't make sense using a lower speed one.


[snip]


It's just a general thing I was pointing out to.


I would not just grab the best available simply because it exists - I would check if an older version would make more sense in our use case.


This probably won't apply to the SoC, as mentioned, but it might to other components

Now if you want to talk about the other components, I'm game for that too but I need some data to work with. Like I said until we actually see the specs that they are working with it's hard to argue against something that hasn't happened yet.


So lets talk about this point you raised:

he still didn't answer the thread in those two posts that followed.

I'm not the guy but I'll try to answer from my perspective. [Edit: In this case my perspective was not reflective of OMAP SoC's, See below]

You're going to keep asking for hundreds (if not thousands) of engineering sample chips to sell in production hardware? You think they'll always have these huge allotments of engineering sample chips available for you? And let's say they do, have you looked at the errata on early version, never mind pre-release versions of SoCs? These get released so companies can complete their designs, not so they can be sold

No where did Craigix indicate he was going to us engineering samples to sell in production hardware (as far as I can tell). I suspect Craigix plans to use these samples for development and prototyping and not actually sell free engineering samples in devices for profit as it is both unethical [Edit: I'm in error see below. I thought you had to notify the buyer that you're using ES's], and likely cut off his supply of samples once the manufacturers got wind of it. Also it is highly unlikely that a supplier is just going to hand over hundreds if not thousands of these SoC's over to Craigix as the poster seems to think. Craigix will likely get a handful of them or so. But what do I know.


So the poster doesn't even understand whats going on and he's chewing Craigix out for the wrong reasons. I'm not sure I'd respond to that. Depends on my patience level after being repeatedly second guessed and bashed by the community. I know how that feels from experience.


Actually I was going to go through some other posts but figure I should stop and let you point out what you have issue with or what your argument is. It's true I may have missed your point. Now when I said this is where your cognitive dissonance lies. I wasn't speaking of your brain, just the phrase you used which I see was actually cognitive disconnect.


So I'll let this

that's very dense of you,
this

Nice trolling
this

Please don't speak of cognition, you are sorely lacking it right now.
And this

Now if you had read a little more on that link I posted, Craig indeed does want to have bleeding edge specs
Pass due to possible confusion from poor wordage on my part. Hopefully the last part shows how I could have come to the misunderstanding that the discussion involved the perception that Craigix wants bleeding edge specs.


Edit:

You can actually buy and sell ES samples, the first Pandora consoles used them.
 
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overgauss

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My bad I stand corrected. Did you have to notify the buyer that ES samples were used?


Here's more info for my thinking:


Engineers arrested for selling sample CPUs on eBay


Engineering sample CPUs, typically designated by Intel Confidential and ES markings are considered beta versions that are used for in-house testing, compatibility qualification, used as demonstrations or sent to media outlets for evaluation purposes. These processors are often times sent out to various outlets ahead of commercial releases with those on the receiving end having to sign non-disclosure agreements and either return the chip or agree not to sell it after initial testing.
 
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rohezal

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Well at least in the x86 the final cpu revision sometimes uses improved stepping, to save power and / or get more performance. I am not sure if its a good idea to use engineering samples of chips that might change. Look at the Omap chips (Classic vs Rebirth). Same chip but other GPU revision. The classic chips have sometimes problems with android 3d stuff. I am not sure if its a good idea to use beta chips on a production board. At least not as standard SoC.
 
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craigix

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I should add 'as long as you have permission', which we did. (and we were not the only people using ES chips).
 

overgauss

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Oh gotcha. As far as I know using ES chips in production is frowned upon because they aren't under warranty (Intel/AMD etc). But looks like you had everything squared away.
 
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WizardStan

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My only present concern with using ES samples is bugs like what we have in the earlier releases of the first Pandora. I don't think there was anything crippling, the few bugs there were Notaz found workarounds to, but what if the next time they can't? What if the P2 CPU has a bug which under the right conditions causes them to explode (or something far more mundane like crashing a lot)? Are we protected if that happens and more importantly are you guys? I can't really see TI taking exchange of 2000+ samples because they had a bug in them.
 

monty

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iprice we're all just passionate and vocal about the Pandora dream. Some of us are like beneficial bacteria. When the host body takes note of the bacteria it spasms and says "ewww bacteria! Kill it with fire!" And the bacteria is like "bu-but we live in symbiosis! We handle vital functions and prevent you from getting sick from the bad bacteria. We need each other. I'm blueberry yoghurt you should love me...." But then the host body is all "Oh HELL NAW! You're trollteria masquerading as yoghurt, I can tell by your swaggah."


Rinse. Repeat.


...


I would trade a quarter of the aft-most sub-cockle of my left gonad for a ruggadized pandy Fusion-Power.

Overgauss, you have a unique way with words.
 

overgauss

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My only present concern with using ES samples is bugs like what we have in the earlier releases of the first Pandora. I don't think there was anything crippling, the few bugs there were Notaz found workarounds to, but what if the next time they can't? What if the P2 CPU has a bug which under the right conditions causes them to explode (or something far more mundane like crashing a lot)? Are we protected if that happens and more importantly are you guys? I can't really see TI taking exchange of 2000+ samples because they had a bug in them.

Well if the plan actually IS to sell ES chips based P2s by the hundreds and thousands I definitely owe that poster I was blabbing about an apology! My "but what do I know" was sincere however. This selling of ES is a new thing to me and I have to agree that I wouldn't want no part no way no how of an ES being inside the best handheld on the market. I'm naive and don't expect that to be the case, but it's obvious I've got to allow for it.


WizardStan those are some hella good points. Perhaps that was what the other poster was talking about and I was fully talking out of my ass. Pass me some of that humble-pie and bring me a big ass fork with you. Looks like I've got some eating to do.

Overgauss, you have a unique way with words.
irl :)

Edit:


And apologies to Bismuth too as I commented on something I didn't understand after asking him not to.
 
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WizardStan

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This selling of ES is a new thing to me and I have to agree that I wouldn't want no part no way no how of an ES being inside the best handheld on the market. I'm naive and don't expect that to be the case, but it's obvious I've got to allow for it.
I'm not sure when they ran out of ES chips (or even if they have yet, maybe all 600Mhz Pandoras have them?) but at least the earlier ones have bugs with the SD cards and some troubles with the GPU, probably a few other things I'm not aware of. Nothing that Notaz wasn't eventually able to workaround with software, but if they had used production parts instead of ES there wouldn't have been a need to futz around with workarounds for months. Could be the P2 gets ES parts and has no problems, or could be there are crippling problems that simply cannot be worked around. If Craig goes forward with the ES parts again, I'm just hoping they have a plan in place should they start failing in bizarre ways.
 

levi

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Certainly in my (second hand) experience, early samples of most ARM-based cores were broken in various and interesting ways that always had to be worked around. And don't rely on the fact they've released fixed chips - bugs would often re-appear and have to be re-fixed whenever they came up with a new design.


You're likely to have less problems if you're running Linux on it though, as the chip firms generally have linux baseports working before they ship anything.
 

craigix

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Almost all first release devices using new ARM chips are using ES chips.


The OMAP3 (and 4?) were only available as ES chips for the first 18 months. They were used in all devices launched in that time (there were quite a few, archos etc.).


I expect the OMAP5 to be the same.


I suspect they call these ES chips because, as Levi mentioned, it seems very common for bugs to show up in the chip lifetime, branding them as ES almost certainly allows the manufacturer protection from that.
 
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notaz

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Almost all first release devices using new ARM chips are using ES chips.


The OMAP3 (and 4?) were only available as ES chips for the first 18 months. They were used in all devices launched in that time (there were quite a few, archos etc.).


I expect the OMAP5 to be the same.
Citation needed. I'm not aware of any OMAP3 device that had the same broken chips that we have on CC pandoras, except early beagleboards and perhaps some other similar dev/hobby boards like Overo. I say broken because GPU has a serious flaw that prevents 3D in Android as we are stuck on ancient more broken Imgtec driver because of it, as it's the only one supporting that chip revision. Not to mention SD card read corruption bug that could luckily be worked around in software to some extent.


There is also lot of confusion coming from how TI is naming of their chip revisions, ES2.1 on CC pandoras is the "engineering sample" in true sense, while ES3 is the final chip that went to N900, rebirth pandoras and so on.
 

craigix

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The achos media player used the same chips, or at least that's what we were told, they bought their chips before we did.


As you say, they still call it an ES in the 3.0 version.


This seems to be standard for at least TI.
 
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