How are we going to make a lot of money?


thatgui

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So, what is you conclusion? Where's your suggestion to achieve your "target a broader audience"? I find you to be very rude and unimaginative, because you are stating the "obvious" and yet you are in total denial of the true nature of the problems we are facing when making a new device. You need to stay back and look at this matter objectively, and tell everyone what's your ideas to make pandora better. ...
My conclusion is that I'm getting tired of this - maybe because I'm in constant denial. So, would you mind telling me, what it is that im denying ?

I did not know that that we need to be imaginative or looking at things from a third person perspective in this thread. Your main proposition is that the Pandora needs a better UI, stating the obvious isn't very imaginative, and presenting a usecase (the "we need a E-mail and a emulator tab") that just represents our personal preference is neither imaginative nor does it look like an "outside angle".


And why is this even in this section ? With the P2 keeping the basic concept of the P1 (Clamshell, gaming controls, keyboard, touchscreen) your idea could apply to the P1 as good as to the P2, so why not start now, to have something already refined to put on the P2 on day one ? A good starting point could be Panorama

Not just sit there and say everything is stupid, and you are the smart person here.


....


Before you starts to shout at me and say: " you don't have any ideas either, so why are you asking me" such and such like a 12 years old. This thread is made to show my suggestions to make P2 competent. A better user experience is what I think could be important in today's market. (Just look at the direction that everything is heading towards) If you are truly full of delightfulness that is ready to burst out of your chest, then tell us. Or if you haven't think about the issue yet and is only here to prove you are clever, then you can start to brainstorm now. It's never too late. May be all will be shocked by your revelation.
This implies that one needs to have a better idea than the orginal to partake in a discussion - are you sure about that ?
 
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xiongxioi

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This implies that one needs to have a better idea than the orginal to partake in a discussion - are you sure about that ?
I did not imply that, but participants need to provide constructive criticisim that are built on facts, and not just subjective views and personal attacks. I'm ok with you insulting me and keep pestering on small pathetic details of some misused words. But, that's not my intention to start this discussion.

I'm an engineer, and I know next nothing about what other people may want with P2. But what I do know is, to evaluate a  proposal, one company needs to do a feasibility study; to ensure the success of a project, the team need to do a WBS study (work breakdown structure) to find out all the risks, and thus maximise opportunities and minimise adversities. In fact, if Craigix had done a simple WBS study, ICP 2 would be in our hands already, and he should starts to earn money from it and pay back all the pre-orders he owed. I trust ED that he can do these by himself, so this thread is to get all kinds of proposals out. It's just a starting point. 

Also, if you don't have a better idea than mine, then why are you trying to prove it's worthless? It is a seemingly viable option. If you have some additions or points you want to make, then I'm fine with that. But you were not even trying to understand the situation. Nor were you trying to think from both sides and judging it by both its cons and pros. Hence your posts are completely worthless and utterly undermines my intention of starting this thread.

I'm the one that is sick and tired of you and this will be the last message to you.
 

xiongxioi

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A lot of money is : Enough money to cover all expenses, pay a reasonable wage for time spent, pay off investors, invest in future product development, provide significant rewards for voluntary software / firmware work, and perhaps have a little bit left over to buy a few obscure Japanese RPGs from eBay.

Target user base is : 10,000 units sold

Target sale price : $650 delivered (current retail price of 1Ghz Pandora is approx $750 delivered)

It's appreciated that a few of these ideas really ruffled the feathers of some of the armchair iconoclasts who inhabit these boards (those who get pleasure from hating tablets / android / things that appeal to noobs and also loving the things spurned by the majority, such a linux only mini laptop) I should know, I'm a bit of an armchair iconoclast myself. ;)

With that in mind try and shelve your personal antipathy towards Android and answer the following question : If P2 ran Linux out of the box what would you lose if it also ran a fully functional version of Android?

Here is what it would gain : Sales. There are 10's of millions of people who really like Android I bet OP GmbH could find a few thousand of them who would be willing to spend $650 on the unique proposition of a mini Android Laptop with built in Hardware controls if the Spec was competitive when compared to existing hardware.

There are also plenty of people like me who would also see the inclusion of Android as really adding value to the proposition of buying a P2 due to existing familiarity of the Android OS and investment in the Android software ecosystem.
My hatred towards Android is kinda from my past experience with it. My samsung galaxy note 10.1 semi-bricked about 5 times, and from that point I never ever even tried to learn how to use android. May be it's my fault of rooting it, or installing some well-recieved custom firmwares. But still, it was frustrating. I do agree with you now comes to think about it. Pandora would be more awesome if it comes with native android support, however, ED would need to pay microsoft a few bucks for each console he sold, and I hate microsoft even more than google. So nah, take my attitude on android with a grain of salt.

I guess it doesn't cost that much to include android in pandora. So, it feels like a viable option to extend our target market. Thanks for your post, I come to my senses after re-evaluating android. I still hates it though.

I'm kinda amazed by the fact that nobody is suggesting making pandora a indie game market place. Like what GCW is trying to achieve. It would be cool, but I have this sneaking suspicion that indie developers would make more money to just publish their games on PSN, appstore, googleplay than on some obscure UMPC of whose user base is only in the thousands.

Another topic I would like to adress is, back in the old days, a console or computer has to have some sort of killer apps. But today it seems functionality and the size of the software library is more important than having exclusive exotic apps. It would be helpful if P2 can run sage with less problems though. May be we can contact the sage team to help us giving sage supports for fat32 format sd cards.

As for providing 3d printer blue prints for pandora's case, it sounds kinda cool, but isn't things coming out of a 3d printer tends to be very brittle and have rough finishes? I've also heard about how 3d printer is bad for one's health.

Wouldn't it be sweet if we can do 3d modeling on p2? This is something android will never support, because android and ios tablets are more like toys than workstations.
 

thatgui

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I did not imply that, but participants need to provide constructive criticisim that are built on facts, and not just subjective views and personal attacks. I'm ok with you insulting me and keep pestering on small pathetic details of some misused words. But, that's not my intention to start this discussion.
Would you mind pointing out the personal insults and attacks (I don't want to make these mistakes again)? I would still like to know where I am denying something, and I still don't know which situation I don't understand.
And in your understanding I did provide constructive criticism:

Original, condensed propositon: "We need a better UI"

My condensed answer: True, but where should that come from, Pandoras software is community based

Your condensed answer: that doesn't matter, we can always hope that there will be one who makes it happen.

How should I counter that with facts, when you are arguing with guesses and wishfull thinking. But I tried to, by pointing out that designing a GUI isn't as easy as it may look like, and that going big in numbers comes with a lot of drawbacks.

PS: You always have the right to use your "domestic authority" if you want to keep me out of this.
 

FaeMinx

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if it comes with native android support, however, ED would need to pay microsoft a few bucks for each console he sold
Excuse me, what? :-||

Wouldn't it be sweet if we can do 3d modeling on p2? This is something android will never support, because android and ios tablets are more like toys than workstations.
Oh really?
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.scalisoft.spacedraw

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=truesculpt.main

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.naticis.d3D

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ascon.subdivformer

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.autodesk.autocadws

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=it.isticnr.meshlab


And this is just the beginning. I'll be curious to see what productivity apps are available by the time P2 is ready for release.
 
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ekianjo

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Oh really?
Yeah, how many of these applications compare to their desktop equivalents. ?

Let me guess...

NONE.

Excuse me, what? :-||
He's probably referring to the Android tax that Manufacturers of Android Phones pay to Microsoft. 4 to 5 dollars per device, I heard. Due to Patents.

As long as you don't distribute Android with the device, I don't think you would have to pay anything, though.
 

KickAss

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i just had lunch and read through all of this while i was eating. i had to eat anyway, so it actually wasn't that much of a waste of my time.

ba dumm tsshh
 

Mr_Loon

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Oh really?
Yeah, how many of these applications compare to their desktop equivalents. ?

Let me guess...

NONE.
Don't forget though, the times are a-changing, must admit I've been blown away by how good things like photoshop are on Android.

Also consider : If the desktop equivalents are suitable to run on a handheld device (in terms of UI) & If the android equivalents are good enough for the majority of users.
 

FaeMinx

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Yeah, how many of these applications compare to their desktop equivalents. ?
 
Was this under debate? I was merely showing that the statement 'Android or ios will never support 3D modeling' was in fact erroneous. :)

I had no idea Android belonged to Microsoft, I actually thought it is was Google's.
 

Klumpen

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I had no idea Android belonged to Microsoft, I actually thought it is was Google's.
It belongs to the Open Handset Alliance and Google seems to be the biggest member there.

Microsoft does not have anything to do with it, afaik.
 

TrashyMG

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It's stupid patents at work.. Google has to pay Microsoft for every handheld made most likely because Microsoft had some lame patent that google is infringing upon. 
 

dimag0g

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Guys, please don't listen to this expanding idea. Consider this - OpenPandora is unique because of its software (well, I'm exaggerating here a bit, there are unique hardware features too), while all ED is selling is hardware. Such business idea is just doomed if you want a substantial market share. So the day P2 has great interface and superb office software so common people will want it, there will be Chinese clones for $200, able to run the same software with no way to counter them in court. It's free software, remember? Arguing where the above-said great software would come from is just nonsense, there is no profit in this field either way.

If anything, P2 should develop unique hardware capabilities. If you make money by selling hardware, it makes sense to be good at it, right? And you cannot be cheap because of low volumes (at least now), so the only way to survive is to provide something noone else does. I, for one, wouldn't mind paying extra for an FPGA I could play with. Or for high-speed ADC-DAC on board. Or at least for an expansion connector or expansion slot so I could add those things. Or (the lame way, but easy to do) just plenty of inexpensive cool features like accelerometers, compasses, AM/FM receivers and such.

PS. There is an even more lame way, which seems to pass by pretty well. It consists in making sure P2 has the biggest cock, RAM, NAND and raw performance. But it still makes more sense than entering the software market.
 
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ekianjo

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there will be Chinese clones for $200, able to run the same software with no way to counter them in court.
So why isn't it happening right now with the P1? There's ample justification to make such a device since there's a lot of chinese suppliers who make devices in small quantities.

But you know what? None of them would sell well, because long term support would be inexistant.  
 

ekianjo

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If anything, P2 should develop unique hardware capabilities.
I don't agree, adding unique hardware is only adding an option that most developers won't even bother to use, and that is screaming for poor documentation and poor tools to use it. The reason why we have tons of software on the Pandora is because its hardware is relatively standard and well known, not the other way around.

And look at the Raspberry Pi - it's not the GPIO ports nor the MIPI interface that made it sell it in drove - it's just its price.  

inexpensive cool features like accelerometers, compasses, AM/FM receivers and such.
to do what? You would then just be building an Homer Simpson car with lots of cool stuff that end up being useless for 99.99% of people, resulting in a horrible device. Please, no. 

There's already something called the USB port to do additional stuff and customize your device the way you like. No need to included everything in the box. 
 
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ekianjo

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PS. There is an even more lame way, which seems to pass by pretty well. It consists in making sure P2 has the biggest cock, RAM, NAND and raw performance. But it still makes more sense than entering the software market.
No, because by the time the Pyra comes out, it will already be obsolete hardware wise compared to smartphones. Competing on hardware is a lost battle especially on something that's supposed to last 3-5 years on the market.  

If the android equivalents are good enough for the majority of users.
That's where you differentiate. The Pandora/Pyra is the tool for power users, not for the majority.  
 

Natsu

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Yeah, but it would be nice if it could keep up with phones of that year of its release.

Well, the majority is going have the majority of possible money. :p
 

ekianjo

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Such business idea is just doomed if you want a substantial market share.
I think that's where your argument is flawed. It's not realistic to get any kind of substantial market share unless:

- you spend tons of money on marketing (not realistic: that money is not there)

- your price is under 300$ (not realistic: we already know it's likely to be way higher than that)

- you have the appropriate manufacturing capabilities (not realistic: current max throughput is 250 units/week at GC as far as I know, not sure how much higher they could go but certainly not in the millions of units per year)

- you have the appropriate supply/distribution chain (not realistic: the Pandora is already sold almost only online, its successor won't be physically present in most stores, so this will impact its mass market appeal anyway)

- you have something that has mass-market appeal (that's where you could compete, but competing against phones will be difficult for most users who don't care about the "power applications")

Net, if you wanted to build a significant market share you would NOT design something like the Pyra, not market it at a high price, and go for something way, way cheaper where you could provide good margins to distributors as a top priority. 

But anyway, while I'm pretty sure the Pyra will be a bigger player than the Pandora (if it comes out not too late), it's likely to remain small and niche market, and honestly there's nothing wrong with that. 
 

dimag0g

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But you know what? None of them would sell well, because long term support would be inexistant.
Isn't long-term support one of the things you need to push Pandoras to the office? I don't seem to get your point. I thought there were no P1 copies because (besides lack of interest outside pandora community) ED didn't share the schematics.

Competing on hardware is a lost battle especially on something that's supposed to last 3-5 years on the market.
Yet people want Snapdragon.
 
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