How to calculate a price for the Pyra

[Chip]

You have to admit it's kind of frustrating though, because with Pyra you're not really paying a huge premium for a kind of unique craftsmanship, you're paying a huge premium to get a few features that the other guys could hypothetically add for a small cost.


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I'm guessing if a company like GPD released something functionally identical to Pyra for less than half the price it would almost completely steal its market.


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What I kind of wish would happen is a company like this to take a contract for a respin/customization of one of their existing devices (like the XD) for a more niche purpose.

Agreed on the frustration, but I don't honestly know if there is a cheaper way to do it. I'd love for there to be a company that would do smallish runs of customized devices, but I don't know if such a company could survive financially. It seems like it would be "so easy" for a GPD or a Yinlips or any of the hundreds of noname Chinese factories to make a cheap updated Pandora, but could they? We have no idea what their production numbers and costs are. It could be that the only reason they can sell the XD for $160 is because they're going to make at least 100k of them, and they're confident that they can sell that many.


Is there a market for 100k pyras, even at $200? Could GPD make a pyra for much less than ED at the same quantities? Considering that Chinese manufacturing is practically a black box, I don't know if it's possible to answer these questions.

 

[EvilDragon]

Of course it would need additional board for keyboard attached to PI. The size/bulkiness wouldn't be so bad, here are some photos:

The position how it could be done - hdmi and audio would need to be rerouted by cable extensions to top (hdmi) or upper left (audio). Red rectangle is keyboard board attached to gpio on the left, blue is space for battery.

Okay, looking at the power consumption of the Pi2, it needs about 300mA when using a single core at 5V.

That would be 1,5W. The Display would need about 0,7 W as well.

So you'd have a power usage of 2,2W when doing normal work. This is without Wifi or anything else.

A battery with the size you are planning would probably have 2200mAh with 3,7V, so we'd have about 8,2W.

So with simple usage, you'd have a battery time of about 3,5 - 4 hours, less when you use more cores or have additional Wifi, etc.

The thickness at usb port is 2cm (red), thickness of the rest of the Piu board where the keyboard board would lie is 1cm (green):

Don't forget you also need some hinge for the LCD, etc. somewhere.

Of course one custom board designed directly for the device will always be better but this is about compromise and reusing existing solution to save the price and piggyback on Pi success and big community.

So instead of whole device this would still mean custom case, keymat, lcd, keyboard board with lipo charger and controller chip (some arm cortex like in Teensy or Maple) sending key events and doing power on/off. So it looks like most of custom costs are still there but the board is much simpler and existing PI OS/software would be easy to reuse so one could save on the development. Also if it would be sold as a kit/docking station maybe it would not need some certifications (wireless) or extra fees (sd, hdmi, codecs)? If this could be made to be sold for 200EUR it would make sense to me. But if you say it could shave off only 150 EUR (from 500-600?) it would still be very expensive indeed.

All the custom stuff makes things expensive. You also need some space for all the chips, and an issue with reusing existing solutions often is the power usage.

You can't optmize the traces for the power circuit, etc., so you probably have a higher power consumption that you could have.

Of course it would not be as good/fast as Pyra but the quad core with the GPU and other cores the PI 2 has is still plenty for emulation and much better than Pandora. And there is lot of optimizations on the software side and agreements with various third parties done by Raspberry Foundation which would bring additional value for such device.

True. But I really don't think that could be done in an ergonomically useful way for a good price. 

EDIT: As for cost, here is something similar but a bit larger https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/pi-top-a-raspberry-pi-laptop-you-build-yourself#/storyThey estimated it to 299USD including the pi board, and larger batteries/lcd but not custom keyboard, only the case.

Well, that it totally different.

They have a VERY simple case design and just leave a hole for the keyboard.

Instead, they include a simple standard keyboard that can be gotten for less than 3 USD (probably) in China.

The only expensive part here should be the LCD and the case, there's nothing else here.

With that size, they don't need a custom LCD cable as well.

LCDs that size are also cheaper than small LCDs with high resolution.

That stuff all adds up. Keymat, for example is 10,000 EUR for the mould and 8 EUR for each mat.

LCD Cable is actually cheap with the Pyra - only 2 EUR.

Case moulds are about 50,000 EUR.

And don't forget the development and design cost as well (that was probably 100,000 EUR).

With a simple design as the PiTop, it's easy to keep the costs low.

Well, in my opinion, 299 USD is already pretty high for a case and an LCD with a standard keyboard and a battery, at least if you expect at least 1000 units.

 

[SNESFAN]

What I kind of wish would happen is a company like this to take a contract for a respin/customization of one of their existing devices (like the XD) for a more niche purpose. Like say, someone pays them something like $200-300k, they redesign their handheld ... and then they sell them to me exclusively for something like $200/piece, and I resell them for $300/piece in order to make the contract money back.

This is really close to reality on another game handheld. A process like this would indeed work. The only thing would be a minimum order that would need met. Like a couple thousand @ $100-$150 each, so really close to your 200-300k estimate.

The downsides to this plan though...

1) you run the risk of losing your design to other Chinese manufacturers, this really isn't a high stakes device, so it might not be a "real" problem, it wasn't for the other device I'm thinking of. "exclusivity" would be basically out the window if the source was known.

2) QC on the end products you get back could really suck, might expect something like 10% failure rate at least at first, and on the functioning ones, they could still have a glaring problem that would be basically impossible to fix until that entire batch sold. Say like you had stiff keys or the paint wore off quickly or something.

It's a gamble, but I know the process is completely plausible.

 

[Rockthesmurf]

I might have missed someone already mention, but another small thing that goes into the 'money equation' is that a person needs a certain amount of money each month to live, say 1,500 EUR (to cover rent, food, bills, going out), so if a product is sold, and zero profit is made, the person would be -1,500 EUR each month. If each device makes 150 EUR profit (after business overheads, paying back device R&D, etc.), then selling 10 devices would be enough money for cover the basics. If by bringing a reseller onboard, instead of selling 10 devices, 20 devices would be sold each month, these extra devices wouldn't need to be helping towards the 1,500 EUR of living expense.

This doesn't at all disagree with what ED said in terms of you need to be able to offer resellers a discounted price (otherwise the resellers wouldn't have any reason to do their job), but what it does mean is that there is actually a certain amount of 'automatic' discount that could be applied once basic living costs have been paid for. For instance, if it works out each Pyra pays 5 EUR towards EDs 1,500 EUR living costs, and ED is already making 1,500 EUR per month without resellers, he could offer a 5 EUR discount to resellers, the Pyra project wouldn't be any worse off, however it would mean after ED is making 5 EUR less than he could (although he is still making enough to cover the project and his living expenses).

The question of should ED receive less money once he has made a certain amount each month, the answer is ED should do whatever he likes! I think everyone agrees he should make money, he has invested, he deserves a reward.

 

[vcoleiro1]

Actually, GPD first made plans of the XD public by providing some rough details of it to a Dingoonity user named skelton, the purpose was for him to get community feedback .  Over half the community asked for a keyboard to be added into it.   Unfortunately GPD were too advanced in there designs to add a keyboard, but for a while there it looked like it was going to happen.  I thought at the time, that was a big bullet dodge for the Pyra, would have been hard to compete with a similar device that  costs  a 1/4 of the Pyra's price

Mind you, when GPD come to next designing an update for the XD, might not be so lucky.

 

[EvilDragon]

I'm not too scared about that, actually. As long as they stick with Android, I don't really see a huge competition.

 

[Grench]

I might have missed someone already mention, but another small thing that goes into the 'money equation' is that a person needs a certain amount of money each month to live, say 1,500 EUR (to cover rent, food, bills, going out), so if a product is sold, and zero profit is made, the person would be -1,500 EUR each month. If each device makes 150 EUR profit (after business overheads, paying back device R&D, etc.), then selling 10 devices would be enough money for cover the basics. If by bringing a reseller onboard, instead of selling 10 devices, 20 devices would be sold each month, these extra devices wouldn't need to be helping towards the 1,500 EUR of living expense.

This doesn't at all disagree with what ED said in terms of you need to be able to offer resellers a discounted price (otherwise the resellers wouldn't have any reason to do their job), but what it does mean is that there is actually a certain amount of 'automatic' discount that could be applied once basic living costs have been paid for. For instance, if it works out each Pyra pays 5 EUR towards EDs 1,500 EUR living costs, and ED is already making 1,500 EUR per month without resellers, he could offer a 5 EUR discount to resellers, the Pyra project wouldn't be any worse off, however it would mean after ED is making 5 EUR less than he could (although he is still making enough to cover the project and his living expenses).

The question of should ED receive less money once he has made a certain amount each month, the answer is ED should do whatever he likes! I think everyone agrees he should make money, he has invested, he deserves a reward.

Restricting income to only what would cover expenses sounds like a continuous financial train wreck.

Costs include labor.  ED and anyone working for him should draw a paycheck.  The community can and does volunteer resources, but are under no 'commitment' to do so, so THAT is different.

ED's company should make profit.  Note this should be above and beyond what he and his employees are paid.

Much like ED's company, re-sellers are in business to make money.  The same rules apply.

Anything less would be charity work.  I can almost see the point in begging companies to do at-cost charity production for medication, food and shelter for the needy.  I do not see any point in a company selling a top (only) in class handheld computing and gaming device being charitable.  The Pyra is, by definition, a luxury device.  It isn't a 'need'.  It is a 'want'.  Those who bring it to us should not be expected to donate their time, money or talents.

I think Steven gets this, that the project needs to act and make money as a business.  But it is clear that several of the above posters are assuming that this project is done as a charity production.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

It definitely needs to make money and be a business. I think the Pyra will do okay and hopefully expand a little beyond the the niche that the Pandora occupied.

 

[Swordfish II]

ED is producing a wonderful device that I want, and deserves to profit from it. Seeing how much I use my Pandora (I even bought a 1ghz since I used my CC so much) I will be buying a Pyra.  Since I am not late to the Pyra game like I was with the Pandora (bought both of mine used), I also want to purchase it directly from ED so he can see the full profits for his endeavor

I am curious if the cost has been worked out more. Last I saw it was ~$500-600

 

[jonlad1]

Ed, superb!

Please, more of these videos!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1ccK1aX4OY&feature=youtu.be

 

[matzesu]

Please dotnt:


Its negative for the sales:


Whyle you work on the Pyra , your Husband can Play some games on it via HDMI and Gamepad..


So you only need one Pyra for 2 Users..

 

[WizardStan]

Ed, superb!

Please, more of these videos!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1ccK1aX4OY&feature=youtu.be

Niiiiice.

 

[levi]

Wow, a stable image and the rotator chip actually rotating stuff already?  I hadn't heard about that, so seeing it now is really awesome!

P.S. Perhaps it'd be better if this video had been posted to the latest news post instead of this sticky.  Can a mod split the discussion?

 

[rygD]

Wow, a stable image and the rotator chip actually rotating stuff already?  I hadn't heard about that, so seeing it now is really awesome!

P.S. Perhaps it'd be better if this video had been posted to the latest news post instead of this sticky.  Can a mod split the discussion?

I noticed that ED has been making official threads when he has time, so this will probably be included in the next one.  Maybe some time this week is my guess.

 

[Rockthesmurf]

Restricting income to only what would cover expenses sounds like a continuous financial train wreck.

You sort of have to see the bigger picture; what I mean is my example of ED making exactly 1,500 EUR per month, by selling 300 Pyra's with a 5 EUR profit is just an example. What actually happens is at the start of the month ED needs to make his business profit, some of this business profit will then be paid to him for personal use (including his personal bills, spending money, etc.), if the amount he needed to make is 1,500 EUR per month, at the start of the month he has zero, and he doesn't know what he'll sell, if it was just one item, he'd need to make a crazy profit on that one item (lets face it, this business model wouldn't work very well!). If instead he is confident he will sell 500 units, he can then set the amount of profit he needs to make per unit accordingly. Now if he has a stable set up, and looks at resellers as an option to sell further units, say this doubles the units he sells, he *could* make a little less on each unit he sells to the reseller and *still* make money (both on the units he sells personally, the ones he resells). As I originally said, ED should do whatever he wants, there is no obligation to offer any specified price to anyone, ultimately the consumer is king: if you don't like it, don't buy it.

 

[Grench]

Restricting income to only what would cover expenses sounds like a continuous financial train wreck.

You sort of have to see the bigger picture; what I mean is my example of ED making exactly 1,500 EUR per month, by selling 300 Pyra's with a 5 EUR profit is just an example. What actually happens is at the start of the month ED needs to make his business profit, some of this business profit will then be paid to him for personal use (including his personal bills, spending money, etc.), if the amount he needed to make is 1,500 EUR per month, at the start of the month he has zero, and he doesn't know what he'll sell, if it was just one item, he'd need to make a crazy profit on that one item (lets face it, this business model wouldn't work very well!). If instead he is confident he will sell 500 units, he can then set the amount of profit he needs to make per unit accordingly. Now if he has a stable set up, and looks at resellers as an option to sell further units, say this doubles the units he sells, he *could* make a little less on each unit he sells to the reseller and *still* make money (both on the units he sells personally, the ones he resells). As I originally said, ED should do whatever he wants, there is no obligation to offer any specified price to anyone, ultimately the consumer is king: if you don't like it, don't buy it.

Mmm...  you seem to be under the impression that the objectives are to make as little money off of the project as possible and that anything above direct hardware costs goes into ED's pocket.

Any business that can't make payroll is insolvent.  DragonBox needs to pay it's employees, including ED for their time, labor and expertise.  THAT should take care of their personal living expenses.  That is a project COST, not a destination for profit.

Profit defines as the money made by DragonBox above and beyond the costs to produce, pay labor, stock, market, ship, cover regulatory expenses, licensing fees, etc...  Profit is the money that the company then decides to distribute to it's shareholders/investors or reinvest in order to make more profit from the profit or hold onto for future business needs.

So, the individual living expenses of the company's employees has nothing to do with profit other than it's impact on the employees negotiating position for additional resources (costs).

 

[Rockthesmurf]

Mmm...  you seem to be under the impression that the objectives are to make as little money off of the project as possible and that anything above direct hardware costs goes into ED's pocket.

Not at all; I'm not really sure where you are getting these ideas from. ED needs to sell stuff to bring revenue to his business. As well as money coming into his business, there is of course expenses going out. ED would most likely prefer to see more money going in than going out (although there are lots of 'successful' business which do not do this). Each item ED sells has a direct cost associated to it, on top of the direct costs there are the indirect costs required for the business. If ED breaks even each month, then the indirect costs would need to be paid for by making sure he charges enough for what he sells to cover both the direct cost of the item plus some extra. If however, he uses resellers, and sells another 1,000 items, those 1,000 items do not have to pay towards a lot of the indirect costs (as they have already been paid for). Hence it is possible to charge a little less, and not lose any money. I have said also that he isn't forced or even compelled to do this, he can make as much or as little profit as he chooses, it is his business. I am struggling to make it any simpler to understand, but to be fair all of my posts have been rushed to type, so sorry if it isn't explained as clearly as possible.

 

[Chip]

It's like saying the analogy is that you want a wooden chair with a cupholder in it and you have to pay thousands to get it hand made. You don't really care about getting a hand made chair, you just want this one modification. And you wish the other companies would make a chair like that because they're already doing the other 90% of the work to make it and they know how to/have access to methods for making cheap chairs.

What if there was a company that bought off-the-shelf chairs and glued off-the-shelf cupholders onto them? Anybody who is paying attention can see how much work is involved in making the pyra. They're engineering this thing from scratch, and that's no small feat. A lot of the cost of the project-as-a-whole comes from designing, testing, prototyping, re-prototyping, and setting up manufacturing for what will end up being a relatively a small run of finished products. What if instead of completely reinventing the wheel, you find something that's already 90% circular and just round off the edges?


However the hell they're doing it, there are any number of no-name chinese factories pumping out decent-spec smartphones for practically nothing. Here's a phone with a 5" 720p display, MT6735 SoC (64bit A53 w/ mali t720), 2GB RAM, and 16GB flash for all of $122.  They've already designed, tested, and tooled up to build the system board.  They've already sourced the components and are manufacturing these in (presumably) decent quantities.  Why can't you just call up Mr. DOOGEE and say "I'd like to place an order for 2000 of your finest Valencia2 Y100 Pro phones please - do you think you can cut me a break on the price if I don't need the frame, glass, battery, back cover, packaging, or accessories?"  I'm not an expert, but I suspect the answer is "Absolutely!"


Now obviously have no idea how conducive this particular SoC would be to a pyra-like project, but out of the hundreds of cheap chinese phones out there, somebody has to be already making something suitable.  Asus and lenovo are both making inexpensive intel atom-based smartphones - if you could rope one of them into this kind of deal, imagine what you could do with an x86 SoC that is well documented and already has linux support.  That's a good chunk of your development and manufacturing work already sorted.  


What about the rest of it though?  I admit you're going to have to make the case and lower PCB from scratch, but there's still room to be clever.  With the brains of the system up in the lid behind the display, your lower PCB will likely only need 2 layers - much easier to design and cheaper to make.  Some parts can still be outsourced.  Instead of making your own QWERTY keymat/keycaps, buy a bunch from whoever makes this thing - if they can sell the whole deal for $27, the keypad can't cost more than a dollar or two.  Maybe you can find a cheap gamepad with decent buttons/dpad and buy those as well.  Anything you can buy pre-made will cost less than designing and making it yourself.


I have to think that a franken-pyra would be cheaper and faster to make than the ground-up approach.  I'm almost afraid to guess how much cheaper, because there are a lot of variables that I can't make educated guesses about.  But certainly it would be cheaper.  If only I had a few hundred grand lying around and some reliable Chinese manufacturing partners...


I know this is getting borderline offtopic, but this concept has been stuck in my head for the last couple weeks.

 

[klapse]

Now obviously have no idea how conducive this particular SoC would be to a pyra-like project, but out of the hundreds of cheap chinese phones out there, somebody has to be already making something suitable.

You can't 'frankenphone' anything on the market to something that meets Pyra design specs. Just one example: None of them have Dual-SD slots.

 

[Grench]

Now obviously have no idea how conducive this particular SoC would be to a pyra-like project, but out of the hundreds of cheap chinese phones out there, somebody has to be already making something suitable.

You can't 'frankenphone' anything on the market to something that meets Pyra design specs. Just one example: None of them have Dual-SD slots.

Actually - to meet the Pyra spec, it would need to be tripple SD slots.  But, you have the right idea.

A Raspberry Pi is a pretty small motherboard - not far from cell phone sized.  In order to 'make it portable' using off the shelf components, the resulting franken-portable-pi winds up being the size of a 1980s laptop.  Use of off-the-shelf components that were not designed to fit together both snug & perfect will by default result in a device that is, "larger than it absolutely must be".

Remember that a primary constraint on the Pyra's design is that it MUST fit in a pocket.  The current Pandora and Pyra designs are already at the stretched limit of that primary constraint.  THAT is why everything MUST be custom created.  There are no 'off the shelf' components that perfectly fit the design constraints.

Combine that size constraint with needing two analog controllers, a VERY nice game pad, two shoulder buttons, a full-on PC capable multi-lingual keyboard, high quality speakers, ports out the wazoo, wireless, high resolution screen, clam shell design so it is self-protecting, etc all crammed inside that limited space constraint and you have a Pyra.  A unique design that should not be compared to cheap Chinese cell phones.

The Pyra isn't a phone.  It is a multi-function general purpose clam shell Linux Debian computer with high quality gaming controls, audiophile sound, wireless networking, more connection ports than many current laptops which, by the way, still fits in a front pants pocket.  Anyone who tries to compare the Pyra to a phone simply doesn't get it.