How to calculate a price for the Pyra

[Nintendo]

Yes, indeed. And it can go the other way as well.

e.g. I value a PS Vita, whether brand new or second-hand to be no more than AU $100.

 

[Wally]

Yes, indeed. And it can go the other way as well.


e.g. I value a PS Vita, whether brand new or second-hand to be no more than AU $100.

I just sold mine for AU$199

 

[Nintendo]

You're lucky, because I just sold one mine (I have many), which was 3 years old for AU $50 on the tree.

 

[Exophase]

It's actually pretty understandable.  I mean he's wrong, but it's totally understandable why he's wrong.  Even with a lengthy and detailed post explaining all the costs involved, some people just can't get over the fact that you can buy something like a GPD XD (with a much better SoC) right now for likely well less than half of what the pyra will cost several months from now when preorders open up.  

There are perfectly good reasons why the pyra will cost more.  But it's possible for a rational person to be aware of those reasons, and not particularly care.  

If I were to have a local woodworker make me a bespoke set of dining room chairs, it would probably cost a few grand and take several weeks.  He's not ripping me off - making chairs is difficult and time consuming, and that's what it costs for the materials and his effort.  But if I just want "some chairs", I can go to ikea and get a full set for less than $500 and sit on them this evening.  Unless I place a lot of value in craftsmanship, the handmade chairs are "overpriced" to me.  I'd be an ass if I said handmade chairs are pointless, because they are clearly worth the cost to those who appreciate them.  But you have to admit that they're not worth the cost for everybody.

You have to admit it's kind of frustrating though, because with Pyra you're not really paying a huge premium for a kind of unique craftsmanship, you're paying a huge premium to get a few features that the other guys could hypothetically add for a small cost. It's not that they're intrinsically expensive and therefore the premium means something, it's that they're just features that are not interesting to those manufacturers.

What I think I'm trying to say is that the things that make Pyra's projected price so high compared to something like GPD XD are not the things that make it unique and interesting. With your chair example someone can legitimately say that they want to pay for the chairs being custom crafted and unique. With Pyra the large premium is due to small economy of scale, more expensive European manufacturing and design, and more expensive (but not necessarily always superior) parts. And while some people probably do want to pay more for a German made product than a Chinese made one I'm guessing if a company like GPD released something functionally identical to Pyra for less than half the price it would almost completely steal its market.

It's like saying the analogy is that you want a wooden chair with a cupholder in it and you have to pay thousands to get it hand made. You don't really care about getting a hand made chair, you just want this one modification. And you wish the other companies would make a chair like that because they're already doing the other 90% of the work to make it and they know how to/have access to methods for making cheap chairs.

What I kind of wish would happen is a company like this to take a contract for a respin/customization of one of their existing devices (like the XD) for a more niche purpose. Like say, someone pays them something like $200-300k, they redesign their handheld to include a keyboard, two full SD slots, more USB, etc, and then they sell them to me exclusively for something like $200/piece, and I resell them for $300/piece in order to make the contract money back.

Of course doing something like this would also make that person something of an asshole since it'd be taking away ED's ability to recuperate the financial investment put into developing the Pyra (not to mention any money lost on the Pandora)

 

[comradekingu]

Sadly the time where hardware makers knew anything about what they were making are long gone.

Phones, tablets, tablet-PCs, its all the same stuff polished up every release-cycle.

Something original and useful, that doesn't break, and can be repaired if it does, its pointless to even hope that the big boys can do any of it anymore.

 

[Caine]

You could of course create a clamshell like design with gaming controls and a keyboard into which you insert a regular mobile phone

 

[Klumpen]

Sadly the time where hardware makers knew anything about what they were making are long gone.

Phones, tablets, tablet-PCs, its all the same stuff polished up every release-cycle.

Something original and useful, that doesn't break, and can be repaired if it does, its pointless to even hope that the big boys can do any of it anymore.

It'a all about cutting down development and building costs. Increasing the profit margin by any means necessary which includes slave labour in asia and removing every piece of hardware that average joe wouldn't use every day even if it would only cost a cent.

 

[comradekingu]

Caine: Thats a spying/tracking device. The price it commands is vastly different to people who care for that sort of thing.

Luckily if you focus on doing it right, and getting it right, for a smaller number of people, those people add up.

 

[Caine]

Caine: Thats a spying/tracking device. The price it commands is vastly different to people who care for that sort of thing.

Luckily if you focus on doing it right, and getting it right, for a smaller number of people, those people add up.

I was jokingly referring to the icontrolpad2. That aside, indeed, phones are tracking devices. If your primary goal is price reduction then that's the road to take.
Mass scale production is the way to reduce prices. In general that's a great thing, extremely cheap high quality items which are used by everyone.

The downside is the cost of entry go up really quickly and anything that is a niche market is pushed out in favour of the more common objects.

I would argue that the market for privacy respecting smartphones is still bigger than the market for a Pyra.

From that point of view it would make sense to create the non-spying phone (3/4G makes that impossible, but the Pyra contains that as well).

 

[klapse]

Mass scale production is the way to reduce prices. In general that's a great thing, extremely cheap high quality items which are used by everyone.

That's how capitalism serves the masses: by producing things on a large scale cheaper than they were produced previously on a small scale.

The masses win.

EDIT: Take for example the common refrigerator. In 1922 the first commercial home refrigerator cost $10,142 in today's dollars. It was produced on a small scale and only affordable to the rich. Through capital investment and R&D over the next 9 decades, the price for an entry-level refrigerator was reduced by a factor of 40, making the technology affordable to everyone.

 

[fanoush]

What I think I'm trying to say is that the things that make Pyra's projected price so high compared to something like GPD XD are not the things that make it unique and interesting. With your chair example someone can legitimately say that they want to pay for the chairs being custom crafted and unique.

... snip ...

It's like saying the analogy is that you want a wooden chair with a cupholder in it and you have to pay thousands to get it hand made. You don't really care about getting a hand made chair, you just want this one modification. And you wish the other companies would make a chair like that because they're already doing the other 90% of the work to make it and they know how to/have access to methods for making cheap chairs.

Exactly. I do not want handcrafted stuff as such, if IKEA made the stuff I want cheaply in hundreds of thousands it would be good enough for me. I do not care my item is not unique/rare. Quite the opposite. Lower cost items has higher value for me due to more people using/hacking/improving it. I fear that due to price Pyra community will be much smaller, mostly comprised of collectors and rich people who 'appreciate craftmanship' and not 'poor' developers/hackers/gamers/teens/kids who will make it really fun. But we'll see.

 

What I kind of wish would happen is a company like this to take a contract for a respin/customization of one of their existing devices (like the XD) for a more niche purpose. Like say, someone pays them something like $200-300k, they redesign their handheld to include a keyboard, two full SD slots, more USB, etc, and then they sell them to me exclusively for something like $200/piece, and I resell them for $300/piece in order to make the contract money back.

My dream device today is case/keyboard/lcd hat/kit for raspberry pi model 2 that would basically put the Pi 2 into something like Pandora/Pyra case. The GPIO port on the PI2 has everything needed to make a board/hat with lcd connector, keyboard contacts on the top, battery on the bottom. The price could be much lower (I hope, both because manufacturing costs per unit and hw/sw development) and the community around pi is huge. But that is off topic here.

 

[TrashyMG]

I fear that due to price Pyra community will be much smaller, mostly comprised of collectors and rich people who 'appreciate craftmanship' and not 'poor' developers/hackers/gamers/teens/kids who will make it really fun. But we'll see.

It is what it is, but there has to be a realization of how much things really cost with a community driven project like this... The Pyra will go down in price eventually, also some may see the upgradability of the device with the modular SoC design as worth the pricy investment. 

 

[Xcl4m4t10n]

I am not rich but I am going to buy the Pyra. In my case, I have no other devices than my PC and my mobile phone (and this one was a present of my bank) so I do not waste my money on 101 devices. I don't know if it is your case but I see a lot of people complaining about the Pyra price but they have like 3 or 4 chinese android consoles, a Shield, some phones, some PCs... What's the point to have all of this crap if everythings make the same job? It's not better to wait, investigate and buy only one chinesse console that adjust to your necesities? The same with the PCs and the phones...

 

[pmprog]

What's the point to have all of this crap if everythings make the same job?

I don't have all those devices; but they don't all do the same job in most cases.

It's not better to wait, investigate and buy only one chinesse console that adjust to your necesities?

Sometimes your objectives for a device after you buy it. Sometimes you're not sure what you want out of the device. Then there's the times you buy something expecting it to be able to do it, but for some reason doesn't...
All the research I did in my garmin watch I didn't realise that it won't "correct" the time from the GPS - despite my earlier model doing just that. Also, it has an alarm, but no audio, just vibrate. The response from Garmin was "Where is the marketing inaccurate?"... Do you think it was wrong to assume something with an alarm function would have an audio beeper!? I'm not expecting MP3s, but some audiable sound seems "reasonable".

 

[EvilDragon]

My dream device today is case/keyboard/lcd hat/kit for raspberry pi model 2 that would basically put the Pi 2 into something like Pandora/Pyra case. The GPIO port on the PI2 has everything needed to make a board/hat with lcd connector, keyboard contacts on the top, battery on the bottom. The price could be much lower (I hope, both because manufacturing costs per unit and hw/sw development) and the community around pi is huge. But that is off topic here.

Wouldn't easily work, as the Pi2 PCB isn't really suited for a device the size of a Pandora / Pyra.

You'd need a customized PCB which has the keyboard, etc. included, otherwise it would just make the device huge and bulky.

Just think about it: Minimum thickness would be the USB / network ports. But you'd need to add a battery, a keyboard and a PCB for the keyboard, etc.

The Pyra isn't that expensive because of all the parts (okay, the CPU is more expensive than the full Pi), but because it is customized.

With all that customization, etc., such a Pi2 would be a lot slower than the Pyra and approx. 100 - 150 EUR less (even with higher production numbers, unless you are talking about a production of 100k units).

 

[Xcl4m4t10n]

I don't have all those devices; but they don't all do the same job in most cases.

A mobile phone don't do the same job than a mobile phone?

 

[pmprog]

Wouldn't easily work, as the Pi2 PCB isn't really suited for a device the size of a Pandora / Pyra.

True, but I've been thinking if one could be made using the compute module, which I think isn't infeasable. You'd still need a custom board from the pins to all the peripherals though, as the default devboard will be too big

I don't have all those devices; but they don't all do the same job in most cases.

A mobile phone don't do the same job than a mobile phone?

Of course it does, but it doesn't do the same as the Shield - which has game controls - which doesn't do the same as a tablet - which has a larger screen.

 

[Xcl4m4t10n]

Wouldn't easily work, as the Pi2 PCB isn't really suited for a device the size of a Pandora / Pyra.

True, but I've been thinking if one could be made using the compute module, which I think isn't infeasable. You'd still need a custom board from the pins to all the peripherals though, as the default devboard will be too big

I don't have all those devices; but they don't all do the same job in most cases.

A mobile phone don't do the same job than a mobile phone?

Of course it does, but it doesn't do the same as the Shield - which has game controls - which doesn't do the same as a tablet - which has a larger screen.

Obviously i was talking about the fact of have 3 or 4 devices of the same nature ^^

 

[fanoush]

Wouldn't easily work, as the Pi2 PCB isn't really suited for a device the size of a Pandora / Pyra.

You'd need a customized PCB which has the keyboard, etc. included, otherwise it would just make the device huge and bulky.


Just think about it: Minimum thickness would be the USB / network ports. But you'd need to add a battery, a keyboard and a PCB for the keyboard, etc.


The Pyra isn't that expensive because of all the parts (okay, the CPU is more expensive than the full Pi), but because it is customized.


With all that customization, etc., such a Pi2 would be a lot slower than the Pyra and approx. 100 - 150 EUR less (even with higher production numbers, unless you are talking about a production of 100k units).

Of course it would need additional board for keyboard attached to PI. The size/bulkiness wouldn't be so bad, here are some photos:

The position how it could be done - hdmi and audio would need to be rerouted by cable extensions to top (hdmi) or upper left (audio). Red rectangle is keyboard board attached to gpio on the left, blue is space for battery.



The thickness at usb port is 2cm (red), thickness of the rest of the Piu board where the keyboard board would lie is 1cm (green):




and here is how it looks in hand, it could still be a bit wider than twice the width of PI case, it is 9x12,5cm.




When I hold PI inside case (which has lot of empty space) in my hand it does not look bulky.

Of course one custom board designed directly for the device will always be better but this is about compromise and reusing existing solution to save the price and piggyback on Pi success and big community.

So instead of whole device this would still mean custom case, keymat, lcd, keyboard board with lipo charger and controller chip (some arm cortex like in Teensy or Maple) sending key events and doing power on/off. So it looks like most of custom costs are still there but the board is much simpler and existing PI OS/software would be easy to reuse so one could save on the development. Also if it would be sold as a kit/docking station maybe it would not need some certifications (wireless) or extra fees (sd, hdmi, codecs)? If this could be made to be sold for 200EUR it would make sense to me. But if you say it could shave off only 150 EUR (from 500-600?) it would still be very expensive indeed.

Of course it would not be as good/fast as Pyra but the quad core with the GPU and other cores the PI 2 has is still plenty for emulation and much better than Pandora. And there is lot of optimizations on the software side and agreements with various third parties done by Raspberry Foundation which would bring additional value for such device.

But again this is a bit off topic here so lets stop or continue elsewhere.

EDIT: As for cost, here is something similar but a bit larger https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/pi-top-a-raspberry-pi-laptop-you-build-yourself#/storyThey estimated it to 299USD including the pi board, and larger batteries/lcd but not custom keyboard, only the case.

 

[rygD]

EDIT: As for cost, here is something similar but a bit larger https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/pi-top-a-raspberry-pi-laptop-you-build-yourself#/storyThey estimated it to 299USD including the pi board, and larger batteries/lcd but not custom keyboard, only the case.

This isn't really close to the Pyra at all for the reasons I want a Pyra. 

It is gigantic.  For the price of that kit you can get an actual x86 laptop with decent specs.  I guess it depends on why you want your device, but that kit doesn't really provide me with any of what is important to me that the Pyra will, and the Pandora does.  If you can't get the size down then I don't want something this.  Also, by going with a larger size I am guessing that there are a lot less obstacles to overcome than something that is pocketable and handheld.  Once you make it a handheld, the gaming buttons and nubs are an added bonus as well.