Has *anybody* received a refund from OpenPandora Ltd (Craig's) in 2013?

[sswam]

a big thank you goes out to ED ... a good person

So ED is a good person.  I agree.


I would like to explain what a good person Craig is.


- he has helped create the Pandora; without Craig there would have been no Pandora


- Craig mortgaged his house to finance this project. He has lost perhaps 500 times more money on this than each person who pre-ordered.  Have some pity.


- he and Jaquelin have replied to my messages and questions, they have always been friendly and helpful


- he has shipped well-made Pandoras to me (upgraded pre-order) and many other people


- his messages in this thread have been defensive, but civil and fairly friendly, although he is generally under attack here


- in spite of continual attacks and slurs from all and sundry, including moderators and genius developers, he has not given up or declared bankruptcy


- he has worked to promote the Pandora, for example recently he helped to create our new website, and the gameplay video


- he is a funny, friendly guy, with a great sense of humour. He has posted hilarious stuff on youtube and elsewhere, and so I can't help but like him!


It's hard to respect the people here who will add more criticism and hostility against Craig.  I really hate it when people gang up to bully others.  No one deserves that. Craig is by far the most bullied person in this community, and it has to stop.  What has happened with OP Ltd finances and the Pandora pre-orders should not be blamed on Craig. He is doing the best that he can.


Craig has no money at the moment, to refund pre-orders.  If you sue or maim him, I guess he will declare bankruptcy, and you will never see your refund or Pandora.  You have various choices, which should be clear.  Many people in this community are working to help deliver your Pandora or refund - donating, promoting, selling, developing... and just being positive.  Please do not attack, slander, humiliate, threaten, or bully Craig in public.  He has had enough of it, and it can only decrease your chances of getting a refund.  We all get stressed and grumpy some times, but it's gone way too far with all the attacks on Craig.


Craig has been doing his best for Open Pandora, and continues to do so. He is a different person from ED, communicates differently, has different failings and talents.  But he is a good person, and a friend.


I have a sharp tongue, and can live up to my avatar.  I am inclined to respond directly to the next few people who will bully Craig needlessly in this thread.  If you keep on attacking others, you can expect to be attacked in return.

Now, instead of that... could we please have some peaceful, friendly, constructive discussion for a change?


Do you have some constructive ideas about how to improve the pre-order / refund situation?


Or, if someone else appreciates what Craig has done and is doing, would you like to comment?

 

[darkborn]

 But he is a good person, and a friend.

Could you ask your friend, please, to get give some real numbers of left pre-orders to ED?

No irony, no flame here. Just, as you asked for "constructive ideas about how to improve the pre-order / refund situation".

This is what is really, badly, needed. Maybe it is time for plan C. Right now it could be 200 or... god knows how many "selled" units.

 

[LineOf7s]

Good ole Dredd, lightening the mood with your fairy stories and impotent threat of a "sharp tongue".


Good for you.

 

[Exophase]

Those are some impressive rose colored glasses you have their DREDD. When Craig started posting in this thread he made several accusations towards ED, including:

1) That he isn't fairly distributing units according to the agreed upon plan, and is "leaving him in the shit"

2) Deliberately ignores Craig

3) Will do whatever's necessary to salvage his reputation publicly while in private not caring

4) Fancies himself "savior of the community"

5) Says he's being influenced by some council of advisors

6) Says these manipulative things about how ED told him to leave and said his presence here is destructive, in order to make us feel sorry for him

This is not civil and polite at all, this was a straight up attack launched at ED who did nothing wrong. If there's someone who was put on the defensive but remained relatively calm and stuck to citing hard facts and figures it's ED.

Then you go on to specifically single out mods and devs as attacking Craig. What are these attacks exactly? I've seen the mods in this thread petition over and over again to stay civil. The only mod I've seen ever enter the conversation with Craig was _wb_ and he was very polite. I haven't said anything out of line and neither has notaz. Just because he has negative responses and inquiries to what he thinks are unreasonable claims from Craig doesn't mean he's bullying. Sure, there were people launching walls of insults, worst of all darkborn, but it's not like the mods have just sat by and said it's okay. You're not doing such a great thing yourself by referring to the posts as "tides of horse shit" and are now threatening to lash out at people. Do you somehow think Craig is above receiving this but everyone else isn't?

You are really so biased it's painful to watch. I don't think you're capable of being objective about this anymore than darkborn is. You say Craig is doing the best that he can. What is Craig doing at all? Even he says there's nothing he can do anymore. There's a limit to how much praise someone can deserve. You may have a big list of why you think he's awesome and deserves praise and respect but most people have a different sort of criteria for evaluating whether or not someone's a "good person." You may not understand this but you should at least understand that there's no point trying to tell them they're wrong over this.

But I don't think anyone is going to bow down to you, it's going to be really hard for the people you're criticizing to take you seriously.. so if you're preparing for an all out flame war then well, good luck..

 

[THB]

a big thank you goes out to ED ... a good person

So ED is a good person.  I agree.


I would like to explain what a good person Craig is.


- he has helped create the Pandora; without Craig there would have been no Pandora


- Craig mortgaged his house to finance this project. He has lost perhaps 500 times more money on this than each person who pre-ordered.  Have some pity.


- he and Jaquelin have replied to my messages and questions, they have always been friendly and helpful


- he has shipped well-made Pandoras to me (upgraded pre-order) and many other people


- his messages in this thread have been defensive, but civil and fairly friendly, although he is generally under attack here


- in spite of continual attacks and slurs from all and sundry, including moderators and genius developers, he has not given up or declared bankruptcy


- he has worked to promote the Pandora, for example recently he helped to create our new website, and the gameplay video


- he is a funny, friendly guy, with a great sense of humour. He has posted hilarious stuff on youtube and elsewhere, and so I can't help but like him!


It's hard to respect the people here who will add more criticism and hostility against Craig.  I really hate it when people gang up to bully others.  No one deserves that. Craig is by far the most bullied person in this community, and it has to stop.  What has happened with OP Ltd finances and the Pandora pre-orders should not be blamed on Craig. He is doing the best that he can.


Craig has no money at the moment, to refund pre-orders.  If you sue or maim him, I guess he will declare bankruptcy, and you will never see your refund or Pandora.  You have various choices, which should be clear.  Many people in this community are working to help deliver your Pandora or refund - donating, promoting, selling, developing... and just being positive.  Please do not attack, slander, humiliate, threaten, or bully Craig in public.  He has had enough of it, and it can only decrease your chances of getting a refund.  We all get stressed and grumpy some times, but it's gone way too far with all the attacks on Craig.


Craig has been doing his best for Open Pandora, and continues to do so. He is a different person from ED, communicates differently, has different failings and talents.  But he is a good person, and a friend.


I have a sharp tongue, and can live up to my avatar.  I am inclined to respond directly to the next few people who will bully Craig needlessly in this thread.  If you keep on attacking others, you can expect to be attacked in return.

Now, instead of that... could we please have some peaceful, friendly, constructive discussion for a change?


Do you have some constructive ideas about how to improve the pre-order / refund situation?


Or, if someone else appreciates what Craig has done and is doing, would you like to comment?

 

[Exophase]

.. and you know what, I know how much you love making these huge lists and then proclaiming victory but your list this time is CRAP. And when I say stuff you like that you tend to insist I explain why, so that's what I will do:

- he has helped create the Pandora; without Craig there would have been no Pandora

There wouldn't have been Pandora without a lot of people. Many of whom never get mentioned. Some of whom, like notaz, get plenty of thanks for other things they do but not exact credit for their role in Pandora. Craig was an idea man in this. Good ideas are important but execution is 90% of a job. And more than coming up with a brilliant innovation he filled an obvious need for a niche product.

- Craig mortgaged his house to finance this project. He has lost perhaps 500 times more money on this than each person who pre-ordered.  Have some pity.

People make financial risks when starting commercial projects. They often lose everything on them. It happens all the time. I doubt you hold someone in special regard if he mortgages his house to finance a restaurant which tanks and then he struggles to pay back the mortgage.

What some people don't realize is that Craig never had any intention of scraping by on this. When things turned out badly he said he told me (in IM, you won't find it here) that he thought he was going to be a millionaire by now. With prospect of big reward comes part big investment and part big risk.

- he and Jaquelin have replied to my messages and questions, they have always been friendly and helpful

I don't know about Jaquelin (whom fortunately we're not talking about and doesn't give Craig credit by association) but the accounts of Craig ignoring inquiries of every form are overwhelming.

- he has shipped well-made Pandoras to me (upgraded pre-order) and many other people

There have also been plenty of defective Pandoras, and stuff that never should have passed under his watch like Pandoras with cigarette butts in them.

Anyway, yes, a large percentage of the people who placed orders eventually got what they paid for. No extra credit for this one.

- his messages in this thread have been defensive, but civil and fairly friendly, although he is generally under attack here

Nope.

And as far as keeping cool while under attack, I think he bailed out again before the heavier stuff began..

- in spite of continual attacks and slurs from all and sundry, including moderators and genius developers, he has not given up or declared bankruptcy

Because in spite of of the continual attacks and slurs he's launched on ED he's aware that Pandoras are slowly coming in without him having to do anything. Of course he's going to not declare bankruptcy for as long as he can because with time his debt lowers and there's even a chance it'll go away. Bankruptcy is not actually a clean slate and it can carry serious consequences, even if filed for a business. What's amazing is not that Craig hasn't filed but that no one has filed a lawsuit against him and forced him into it.

- he has worked to promote the Pandora, for example recently he helped to create our new website, and the gameplay video

Yes, he in the past made some attempt to sell Pandoras - can you say this is a humanitarian cause when it helps get him out of the hole he's in? I wouldn't. But as of the last few months he's not doing anything anyway, despite saying that he's a sales wizard who just needs the right tools to start working his magic.. meanwhile he's been ostracizing ED for not doing anything during a time when ED has been doing plenty (New Years video and newsletters, FOSDEM promotion, lowering 1GHz prices, Dragonbox competition, offering dropshipping, etc etc)

- he is a funny, friendly guy, with a great sense of humour. He has posted hilarious stuff on youtube and elsewhere, and so I can't help but like him!

I'm not going to comment on all the subjective humor stuff, nor acknowledge any kind of value that's supposed to have..

What I will say is he sure isn't friendly to everyone. I can think of plenty of times he's responded to technical arguments by throwing personal insults at me, about how I need to get a life.. and my favorite, how I have an "autistic nature"

... Okay, you can go back to your flamewar preparation now.

 

[sswam]

Could you ask your friend, please, to give some real numbers of left pre-orders to ED?

No. Craig has been asked this hundreds of times. He does not want to share this information at the moment, I guess he fears it would cause further distress and anger. There is no law requiring him to share this information about his business, and I respect his decision. There is no point in everyone asking him to do this over and over again, in every second post.

darkborn, I would like you to say "sorry" for threatening to cut bits off Craig's body, over a matter of a few hundred dollars, a few posts back. To threaten such a thing is illegal.  I know you are just angry, not actually intending to harm anyone.  But please don't say things like that.

Good ole Dredd, lightening the mood with your fairy stories and impotent threat of a "sharp tongue".

I did post the Grimm's fairy stories if you are interested. They are not very "light" though.

Which bit of my post saying I like Craig and appreciate his work do you think is a fairy story?

Your reply isn't aggressive enough to sharpen my tongue.

When Craig started posting in this thread he made several accusations towards ED

Craig was polite enough. He did not use abusive language, and told things from his point of view.

ED can and did defend himself politely. There's no need for everyone to chime in with "craig is bad" or whatever.

Obviously Craig was feeling defensive and upset when he wrote those things.

What he said has been taken badly, misinterpreted, and exaggerated, as is normal online.

The reaction against Craig in this thread has been very excessive.

You are really so biased it's painful to watch.

Yes, I have this tendency to feel sympathy and side with the person that other people are abusing.

What is Craig doing at all?

1. He is refusing to declare bankruptcy.

2. He is continuing to send pre-order info to ED, so they can be shipped.

3. He is developing the iCP2. I guess if the iCP2 is successful, he might use some of his income from it to help with the refunds.

4. He recently helped to make the new Open Pandora website and gameplay video.

Doubtless he is doing various other things, that I don't know about.

you should at least understand that there's no point trying to tell them they're wrong over this.

If some person doesn't like Craig, that's fine with me.

But I don't like to see a gang of people bullying someone. It is harmful, and can't help anyone to get a refund.

if you're preparing for an all out flame war then well, good luck..

I enjoy a bit of combat in a good cause! But no one is playing along as of yet.

 

[leathco]

This is an embarrassment no matter which side one is on. Craig and evildragon hopefully have already solved their issues, or hopefully will soon. People flaming each other is getting rediculous. Theres no need for personal attacks against craig or defending craig.

Can we all grow up and act civil?

Sent from my HTCEVOV4G using Tapatalk 2

 

[darkborn]

 

[sswam]

your list this time is CRAP

yet to be determined ...

There wouldn't have been Pandora without a lot of people. ... Craig was an idea man in this.

Sure, many people have been critical to the project. As I understand Craig provided ideas, a large amount of capital, and hard work. I honestly don't believe Pandora would have got off the ground at all without him.


Notaz's contribution has been invaluable and is greatly appreciated by me and others, but I believe we would still have a Pandora - albeit with much inferior kernel, firmware, and software - if Notaz had not been involved. I might be wrong on that.

I doubt you hold someone in special regard if he mortgages his house to finance a restaurant which tanks and then he struggles to pay back the mortgage.

Sure, it's risky to start a business. But I would pity and hold "restaurant Craig" in special regard, if after the restaurant tanked, the less-invested partners and customers would all gang up to unjustly blame him for everything, when he has lost far more than anyone else.

the accounts of Craig ignoring inquiries of every form are overwhelming.

Sure, he could not or would not answer many inquiries. If everyone posts "where is my Pandora? When is it coming? What is my queue position?" once or twice a week for several years, it is difficult to handle. Replying to every such message would prevent other work. My occasional friendly messages and sensible questions have been answered.

There have also been plenty of defective Pandoras

Yes, and ED has also shipped Pandoras that subsequently broke or had defects. Let's not accentuate the negative.


For my experience, my CC Pandora built by Craig's company was built slightly better than my rebirth Pandora, which has a sticky shoulder button, and small parts of the case have broken. Unfortunately, the LCD cable in the CC Pandora has gone bad. I don't blame Craig for that, and ED had the same problem. I'm very happy with these Pandoras.


Maybe Craig deserves criticism for being overly optimistic and enthusiastic in the first place ... "we can do this in 2 months!!". This was not a deliberate deception, but sometimes he wears extremely rose-coloured glasses! The other team members could have contradicted or restrained this optimistic promotion. I don't know if anyone did that at the time.

And as far as keeping cool while under attack, I think he bailed out again before the heavier stuff began..

Good. It's much better not to stay here and fight. He has better things to do. So do I, and so do you, but anyway... I guess we lack Craig's good sense to quit a pointless and harmful discussion.

Of course he's going to not declare bankruptcy for as long as he can because with time his debt lowers and there's even a chance it'll go away. Bankruptcy is not actually a clean slate and it can carry serious consequences, even if filed for a business.

Sure, I can agree with that. He also does in fact want to fill the pre-orders and provide the refunds. Suing Open Pandora Ltd. would do no one any good, it has no money. I can understand that someone might do it out of anger, though.

he in the past made some attempt to sell Pandoras

Yes, and that's good. It's not humanitarian, but it is a substantial contribution to the project.


In the last few months, I suppose Craig has been concentrating on the iCP2 work. He needs to do that. If the iCP2 is successful, that might help both Craig's situation and the Pandora pre-orders / refunds.

subjective humor ... he sure isn't friendly to everyone

A sense of humor has great value to me. Exophase is not famous for always being friendly!


I'm a particularly likeable and easy going judge.


Ok, now that we agree about everything, let's move on and wish Craig all the best for recovering his company, filling the pre-orders, and giving the refunds.

 

[darkborn]

Could you ask your friend, please, to give some real numbers of left pre-orders to ED?

No. Craig has been asked this hundreds of times. He does not want to share this information at the moment, I guess he fears it would cause further distress and anger. There is no law requiring him to share this information about his business, and I respect his decision. There is no point in everyone asking him to do this over and over again, in every second post.

But maybe here lays the problem, don't you think? One against all? In this situation?

And why do you guess that "he fears it would cause further distress and anger." Quite the opposite. This pointless hiding makes distress and anger.

After all, what he has to lose? Confidence? Credibility? But, smart people here needs to find out how to cut off endless list of Craig's pre-orders. Craig won't help here.

Do you have better solution then ED's business plan? Please, enlight us.

Oh, btw, please, f*ck out with "there is no law"... if you respect that exactly as you wrote, please go at kickastarter messages list and say those poor people the same: Who cares that mr. Rothwell promised you weekly report about iCP2,  "there is no law requiring him to share this information about it".

 

[dmarschal]

And why do you guess that "he fears it would cause further distress and anger."

What if the number is 0? That means Craig has nothing to ship and nobody to refund. THAT would cause distress and anger!

Sorry for the bad joke )-:

 

[darkborn]

And why do you guess that "he fears it would cause further distress and anger."

What if the number is 0? That means Craig has nothing to ship and nobody to refund. THAT would cause distress and anger!

Sorry for the bad joke )-:

ROFL good one.

 

[elwing]

Could you ask your friend, please, to give some real numbers of left pre-orders to ED?

No. Craig has been asked this hundreds of times. He does not want to share this information at the moment, I guess he fears it would cause further distress and anger. There is no law requiring him to share this information about his business, and I respect his decision. There is no point in everyone asking him to do this over and over again, in every second post.

Sorry, but that's just wrong, everyone believe his queue is in the 600 range... everyone know that queue won't be cleared until at least a couple of years. everyone is ready for a bad news, even if he announce he really has 834 order, that would still be better than knowing you're in for a few years of wait and that he MIGHT hide even worst truth, don't you agree?

at this point, in a state of complete lack of finance, his company is just as good as bankrupt, it cannot do ANYTHING for us, all is done by ED company. The only think it can do would be to provide us some information on OUR order but it's just a big blackbox right now.

since he does nothing anymore for this project and ED is doing what he can to resolve the situation the minimum craig could do would be to transfer the preorder list to ED

 

[darkborn]

Exactly. Just...

C has not to provide this information to _us_ (publicly) - but it won't hurt much more.

It should be given to ED, and he will decide what and how to do.

His business plan _works_, obviously. So he can do it again.

Investors should know what to expect.

Donors - maybe.

Rest of us - who cares? 400, 1000... whatever, no surprise.  As you said. Everything is better then _infinite_.

EDIT: or Infinite

 

[Klumpen]

since he does nothing anymore for this project and ED is doing what he can to resolve the situation the minimum craig could do would be to transfer the preorder list to ED

 

[ShleeDragon]

It seems likely that this will happen.  We'll reach the end of the 800 units, and Craig will still have outstanding orders.  How will this be dealt with? 

Not much I can tell you right now.


Donations might work, profits from other stuff I sell could help as well.


Also, if I ever create a successor, I could offer upgrades to the remaining customers to the new device as well.


But there's nothing fixed yet, we have no clue how many are left, how much profit I'll still make of the remaining orders nor how well they continue to sell.


I can also not tell you when or if there will be a successor... but I hope this all works out somehow and will truly do my best to help as good as I can.

I've said this before. Continue to get your house in order. Clear your queues, pay back the investors at the speed you've agreed and get yourself in a safe position.

If your investors get a safe return on this first offer. they would likely return if you want to make another investor fund shortly after for different things.

 

[Grench]

...

So - can someone clarify if my 1Ghz Pandora was the result of 'Fair Trade' or whether I have a moral obligation to ED and a debt from Craig?

I made it pretty clear he really knows he has to pay for these units if he also wants to keep the profit. I asked him if he's really sure he wants it like that and he agreed.

I sent him an invoice right away after I shipped the first 70 units. I mentioned to him he doesn't have to hurry with the payment, but gave him a date (about a month away) until he really had to pay it.
I even asked a few times about the status of the invoice, but he never answered to that question.


When he asked when will get the next units and I replied that I first need the payment of the first ones I sent him, he told me he can't pay it. This was the first time I heard about that as well.


But with an invoice and someone asking every couple of days when it will be paid, how can you think you'd get these units for free?


If he HAD that opinion, he could've talked about that when he got the units and the invoice, instead of ignoring all questions here.

Thank you for the answer.

By my personal accounting, my purchasing agent (CraigIX) failed to forward the portion of the monies I had given him that should have gone to the manufacturer (ED) for the device I received.  This failure to make this payment effectively, in my mind, makes the 1Ghz Pandora in my possession stolen property.

As such, I feel a moral obligation to provide compensation to ED for the funds CraigIX should have paid him for the wholesale purchase of one 1Ghz Pandora.

ED, I understand that Craig's wholesale deal with you was for the production price of the 1Ghz Pandoras.  At the time of the initial batch of 70, what was your expected receipt from one unit sent to CraigIX's store?

Would you prefer this as a donation via the link here on the discussion boards or as a Paypal payment?

Thank you.

 

[neko]

How many free Pandoras has Craig recieved under the current agreement? 


I'm asking because I would like to know how many he still has coming to fulfil pre-orders


ie 800 minus what he has recieved to date = remaining Pandoras he can receive under the agreement.

http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php/topic/12176-has-anybody-received-a-refund-from-openpandora-ltd-craigs-in-2013/page-7#entry229651


Craig has been hinting that it won't be enough to fill all his orders...

If Ed will say here, in public he will ship all my remaining orders, then it can happen.

Could you ask your friend, please, to give some real numbers of left pre-orders to ED?

No. Craig has been asked this hundreds of times. He does not want to share this information at the moment, I guess he fears it would cause further distress and anger. There is no law requiring him to share this information about his business, and I respect his decision. There is no point in everyone asking him to do this over and over again, in every second post.

Except that Craig told ED that he had 800 remaining preorders, and ED told his investors this, and they budgeted for 800. If it turns out that there were substantially more than 800, then there's going to be a problem.

Because in spite of of the continual attacks and slurs he's launched on ED he's aware that Pandoras are slowly coming in without him having to do anything. Of course he's going to not declare bankruptcy for as long as he can because with time his debt lowers and there's even a chance it'll go away. Bankruptcy is not actually a clean slate and it can carry serious consequences, even if filed for a business. What's amazing is not that Craig hasn't filed but that no one has filed a lawsuit against him and forced him into it.

File a lawsuit for what? £300 for a preorder Pandora that wasn't delivered? Hiring a lawyer costs more than that.


It's pretty clear that Openpandora Ltd has no assets. Forcing the company into bankruptcy and liquidation is pointless. No one would get anything.

 

[Exophase]

You haven't heard of class action lawsuits?

And anyway, some people are pretty petty and will want a company to go into bankruptcy even if they get nothing out of it. There are probably things that can be done to force them into bankruptcy without even filing a lawsuit or hiring a lawyer..

Extend what I said about lawsuits to any kind of retaliative action, including reporting them to the BBB.