Has *anybody* received a refund from OpenPandora Ltd (Craig's) in 2013?

[Exophase]

What was this preorder warning that things could go horribly wrong, including the possibility of losing all your money? I don't remember any kind of disclaimer of that nature provided anywhere by OPT nor do I remember anyone using that kind of language at the time, or any kind of reason why it should have been looked at any differently from any kind of preorder. Yet this is said a lot now..

In fact, for quite a while after the preorders were taken most were under the impression that the preorder money wasn't needed to fund manufacturing. This had to be explicitly clarified later. What OPT said when they opened preorders (in September 2008) is that the device will be ready for shipment before December 2008. That gave people the (false) impression that it was almost complete and that financial requirements were nailed down, not that it was the start of some big risky venture.

For years both Craig and ED said that if you don't like waiting you can always get an instant refund (Craig even demanded order numbers a few times, so he could give money back because he felt the person was no longer worthy of receiving an order)

 

[klapse]

Why stop the discussion? It has been long overdue IMO. Anybody want popcorn?

 

[rohezal]

Why stop the discussion? It has been long overdue IMO. Anybody want popcorn?

Because Craig and ED are writing emails to each other currently. I still would like it more if they phone each other, but it is their choice.

 

[hedwards]

What was this preorder warning that things could go horribly wrong, including the possibility of losing all your money? I don't remember any kind of disclaimer of that nature provided anywhere by OPT nor do I remember anyone using that kind of language at the time, or any kind of reason why it should have been looked at any differently from any kind of preorder. Yet this is said a lot now..


In fact, for quite a while after the preorders were taken most were under the impression that the preorder money wasn't needed to fund manufacturing. This had to be explicitly clarified later. What OPT said when they opened preorders (in September 2008) is that the device will be ready for shipment before December 2008. That gave people the (false) impression that it was almost complete and that financial requirements were nailed down, not that it was the start of some big risky venture.


For years both Craig and ED said that if you don't like waiting you can always get an instant refund (Craig even demanded order numbers a few times, so he could give money back because he felt the person was no longer worthy of receiving an order)

That happened twice, and the first person was advocating for defrauding the OPT by fraudulently claiming damage to get to return the unit.

And yeah, when I signed up in early October 2008, it was very clear that there were risks involved with ordering ahead of time. Right now, I can't find the original page as it's long since been removed as it hasn't applied in years.

Obviously our memories differ on this, but I do clearly remember being warned about that when I placed the order. And it was also pretty clear why they needed the preorders.

Why stop the discussion? It has been long overdue IMO. Anybody want popcorn?

Because there's nothing good that can come of it?

 

[Klumpen]

Why stop the discussion? It has been long overdue IMO. Anybody want popcorn?

It is easier to see something with a sense of humour, if you are not involved.

But it would help a lot.

If this mess is gone, Ed and Craig will have gained nerves of steel regarding future problems. ^^

 

[davidgro]

...


Still - if I had a vote - lock it down. Preferably have ED do it with a statement that he'll get back to us in a week with the 'current situation'.


We've all said our 2 bits worth.

Wow, I think I've never had a thread I started reach 11 pages and have a call for it to be locked, it's kinda thrilling in a train-wreck way.

Not that I didn't think it could lead to some squabbles - it was a provocative question despite being worded objectively - but actually bringing Craig back (for a few posts) was much more than I though possible. I'm glad he chimed in, however some of you were continuing to point out things he should or shouldn't have done in the past and that isn't going to encourage any more openness from him. Hopefully ED and Craig are working things out in the background now. (I particularly hope so for selfish reasons)


Anyway, I don't have much more to add here. Oh!

What was this preorder warning that things could go horribly wrong, including the possibility of losing all your money?

I have watched the project from the beginning, when someone's sig in the Nokia Internet Tablet forums led me to the Pandora section on gp32x.de I didn't order on September 30, 2008 but I was lurking.

One of the reasons I didn't order was that even then the "Scam or not?" question was hanging over the project like a cloud - especially on other forums, but even at GP32X the "trolls" were pretty visible.


And I most certainly did know by the time I finally ordered that I was taking a risk, and I laughed when Jacquelyn said in the order e-mail from Sept. 2009 "expected release end of October". But I was relatively wealthy at the time, and as I wrote on said other forum (right after ordering):


'it seems to me like they have been doing a lot of "1 step back, 1.1 steps forward" but are genuinely closer to release than they were even 3 months ago. At least they have the boards. "sometime in 2010" does seem to be a realistic guess to me - if they don't fail completely.' - and it was, sorta. (May of 2010 is when shipping started I think)

 

[Exophase]

By the end of 2009 it'd make sense to be skeptical, but I really don't think that a majority of the people who placed orders instantly in 2008 had any idea that it could take years for them to get their unit or they could lose their money entirely. While outside forums may have entertained the possibility of this being a scam that was not a popular opinion on gp32x and certainly not something that OPT themselves would warn you of.

Maybe some people are more naturally cautious than others, but the idea that people should have knew all along that they may never see their money again is very foreign to me. This wasn't raising a big pot for R&D, this was putting down money for a product that had been discussed for well over a year and had been presented as almost finished. Craig even said that he wasn't going to start taking preorders until he knew they were ready to ship, blaming GPH for not doing that.

You'll note that around the time it started becoming clear they wouldn't ship before 2009 OPT announced that the units would be upgraded to use 256MB RAM/512MB NAND. This was presented as an appeasement for delays. Not exactly the kind of thing you'd expect from a proposition where the buyer was assumed to hold all the risk.

I'm pretty confident that if OPT really did add a disclaimer to the preorder page that the device will take an unknown amount of time to be delivered, may never be delivered, and they may even not give refunds they'd never ship. While it may have been common sense that they wouldn't accept full purchase amount upfront if they had the money to manufacture the units themselves the reason people believed otherwise is because Craig made comments that seemed to be saying this. After it was clear that there were mistakes I asked him to clarify it.

Really don't need to see what the preorder page said, can just look at what was posted on the forum.. Craig said that mass production was starting at the end of September 2008:

http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?/topic/44470-do-all-3000-units-have-to-be-sold-before-production-can-start/

You really think this sounds like "we don't know how long this will take and your money might be forfeit"? More like "we're ready to hit the go button now, don't need all orders filled for it, you can pay for them as they come out."

 

[Galaxis]

Is there is a plan for this?, ie if requested by Craig, can he receive cash for units sold instead of a Pandora?

That wouldn't be a problem for me.

Sorry, but that's crazy talk. Craig fucked up his business all by himself, and it's not your job to rescue him. It's commendable, it's an exceptional service to Craig's poor customers, but all you will get from Craig is more abuse.

 

[Null]

I still would like it more if they phone each other

 

[moxie]

Oh, the good old times...I guess it depended on how cynical you were, whether you thought they'd be out in the given time or not. I was too old and jaded to believe they would be. I wasn't nearly old enough to guess exactly how long it would take, though

 

[Mr_Loon]

We were all warned when we preordered that things could go horribly wrong including the possibility of us losing all our money.

I never got that warning, but it was a slight concern due to the nature of the project, still, at £190 and delivery promised before Christmas it seemed like a good bet at the time. You know what for me it was a really good bet because I was lucky enough to get a unit in 2010. The best £190 I've ever spent on tech IMHO.


So please give a clear link / description of where this warning was.

Of course he's avoiding these discussions, there's nothing good that's come out of them in quite some time as people don't change their minds nor do they even believe what he's saying.

The problem is that for a very long time Craig has not said anything :


People are told that financial losses due to Circuit Co are responsible for them not receiving a unit, no explanation has been given as to why Circuit Co have not been sued.


I asked about the voluntary contributions to the dev fund (specifically described as 'this money will go to the people who create software for the Pandora') years ago. Nothing was forthcoming for a very long time, eventually a seemingly arbitrary response that 'this money was used to buy dev hardware' was given.


etc.


As stated in this thread it's my sincere belief that Craig needs to understand that if he chooses to ignore perfectly reasonable questions then people will tend to think the worst, i.e. that he has something to hide. He would both help others & help himself by taking the time to answer / respond to reasonable questions put by members of the Pandora community / paying customers.

 

[Loonie]

I still would like it more if they phone each other

 

[vcoleiro1]

Is there is a plan for this?, ie if requested by Craig, can he receive cash for units sold instead of a Pandora?

That wouldn't be a problem for me.

Sorry, but that's crazy talk. Craig fucked up his business all by himself, and it's not your job to rescue him. It's commendable, it's an exceptional service to Craig's poor customers, but all you will get from Craig is more abuse.

IF your questioning Craig's integrity, then I guess ED could always sent the refund directly to Craig's customers waiting for a refund.  He would need a list from Craig to do this.

Remember , the current situation is Craig is getting Pandoras derived from ED's sales which he then sends to his remaining pre-order customers.  Criag isn't providing any refunds as he hasn't got any cash source to do so (unless there is something I don't know about - tax refund maybe).

The only way for Craigs customers who requested a refund to get one would be if instead of sales cash ED receives being used to build a Pandora for Craig, every now and then the cash is refunded to someone in Craigs refund list. This is the only way Craigs customers are going to get their  refunds . Unless there is another solution, not refunding customers in this way would result in no one ever getting a refund from Craigs list.  

 

[Grench]

Don't blame the team for having an abundance of optimism when the project started.  They did a commendable job of keeping it going through some rather serious adversity.

Things are where they are.   What we're missing are the details of exactly where that is.

Craig's demand that ED take on the legal liability for all of his outstanding orders AND refunds before he'll disclose how many of those there are - that's simply nuts.  To paraphrase that, "You agree to take on my debt - then I'll tell you how much debt that is."  Nobody would ever take that deal - I don't care how bad of a businessman they are.  To even propose it takes some serious clankin' cajohnes though.  On what planet would such a deal make sense to anyone?

In my humble opinion, ED holds the cards in this.  It is not outside the bounds of reason for him to simply cut off Craig and his murky queue until such a time as Craig comes clean with exactly what that queue is.  Not to the rest of us, but to ED.  Once ED says he's gotten a clear accounting, the harping on this subject would vanish.

 

[klapse]

By the end of 2009 it'd make sense to be skeptical, but I really don't think that a majority of the people who placed orders instantly in 2008 had any idea that it could take years for them to get their unit or they could lose their money entirely...


"we're ready to hit the go button now, don't need all orders filled for it, you can pay for them as they come out."

This is a great post and thanks for the link to that thread. It is a service to the community in 2013 to show just how far removed from reality Craig's statements about mass production were in 2008.


I distinctly remember being hesitant to preorder (speaking only for myself) because the team had no product history behind them. But when they increased the preorder limit, I jumped aboard Oct 1, fearing I'd miss-out on a unit if I didn't.


In response to people suggesting Ed is going overboard supplying Craig's preorder queue: it's not so simple. Those preorders helped fund the whole process of development and production that got things running. That's why Ed is doing the right thing by trying to service them.


Thanks to Ed and Craig for posting in this thread - it is educational for me to read how a business communication breakdown occurs. I am currently limiting my help to a friend who is ignoring some hard facts about why his project will require much more investment than he realizes.


Some people seem to be optimists because they aren't good at accounting for obstacles and hurdles.

 

[Null]

 

[Exophase]

Don't blame the team for having an abundance of optimism when the project started.  They did a commendable job of keeping it going through some rather serious adversity.

I'm not blaming the team per se, I'm just saying it's not fair to say now to the people who didn't get their orders and aren't getting refunds that they were warned from the start that this could happen. That's a myth.

 

[Grench]

Guys, we can talk about it for ages, but it won't help getting pandoras out there to solve OP insolvency problems. For those expecting a refund, please be more patient or switch back to a unit (you won't regret)

For those who have it, let's enjoy more our pandas as there's lots of good software and also figure out some way to help the team. 

Actually, from my perspective, the best course of action for those waiting for refunds would be to reinstate the order - then immediately cross-upgrade (yes, for more $$$) to ED's queue.  That wipes out the debt from Craig's shop and gets them a Pandora immediately.  The Pandora is still a VERY cool device - and there is nothing else like it on the planet.

 

[Grench]

Don't blame the team for having an abundance of optimism when the project started.  They did a commendable job of keeping it going through some rather serious adversity.

I'm not blaming the team per se, I'm just saying it's not fair to say now to the people who didn't get their orders and aren't getting refunds that they were warned from the start that this could happen. That's a myth.

It was not a blatantly stated risk, no.  But anyone who walks into their local bank to get a $400 money order to drop in the mail to some strange guy in England to purchase a device that hasn't been made yet - they should realize that they're entering a bit of a risky deal.

Earlier Craig claimed that he paid for the development of the Pandora.  While I do not doubt that he put substantial personal capital into the project (likely to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars equivalent), it was really the ~4,000 pre-orders averaging $400 +/- each ~ @$1.6 Million that shouldered the brunt of it.   The issue became, though, that once the development costs were covered, there wasn't enough money left to actually produce all of those units AND the actual cost of producing each one turned out to be more than they initially charged AND it took so long that a lot of them wanted refunds.  A rather triple-whammy situation.  They soldiered on though.  Now the price is now more reasonable for what the device is so that it can fund that backlog.  And that's where it's at.

But what, exactly, is the nature of the backlog?

 

[andmaz777]

TV rubbish tonight thankgod for this thread - the best bit of entertainment all week!


It's obvious to me that Craig is burnt out which is understandable but does mean there is no point badgering him although ED could do with knowing what pre orders he has left but heyho.


So lets just be happy that thanks to him we have a great product and by the grace of ED hopefully every pre order will get one.