Has *anybody* received a refund from OpenPandora Ltd (Craig's) in 2013?

[_wb_]

You could also try irc, EvilDragon is in there most of the time (e.g. now).

 

[craigix]

Sorry to hear that you have given up on the Pandora project, Craig, but I understand (from a business perspective) that you don't want to spend any more time on this, because obviously, this is not an effective way to make a living.

In my opinion, it would be best now to give your remaining pre-order list to ED so he can directly get the units to those people and provide them with ETA's etc. I think that would help a lot to avoid a "bank rush" situation in which most of your remaining pre-orderers simultaneously ask for a refund, hoping to get it before OP Ltd. is dead, forcing OP Ltd. into liquidation.

I would do that but Ed has never given me a solid answer on what woud happen in the situation of OP Ltd going in to liquidation. That's the main reason I'm still running it. I won't let it go if it means people will just be left abandoned with no Pandora.

Well I don't think OP Ltd needs to go in liquidation before you can give that list to ED. OP Ltd would still be the company that has to pay back refunds and provide repairs under warranty; it makes sense to try to keep it alive at least until the warranty of most of its customers expires. But at least giving your queue details to ED would give you one less thing to worry about and would make it easier for ED to get those units shipped as soon as he can.

He has not made it clear to me that he will ship my orders out, only said he will do what he can if the time comes. That isn't solid enough for me, because I can see how based on past experience that could be turned against me and it could suddenly be my fault ... and no one from my list gets a Pandora.

If Ed will say here, in public he will ship all my remaining orders, then it can happen.

You could also try irc, EvilDragon is in there most of the time (e.g. now).

I try him all the time on IRC, he never answers me.

 

[rohezal]

I don't like doing this but people ask me why I don't defend myself on the forums, so sometimes I have to say something or everything not defended becomes fact.

I understand that. But please give a call (skype or telephone) and talk about this before it escalates. I realy like this project and I think you and ED are not bad people.

 

[Exophase]

December was a difficult time to get a hold of ED (I tried for weeks because I wanted to get him to do DS videos ;p) but he's been pretty active since then. Probably a lot of people are hard to reach during the holidays.

 

[craigix]

from what your buyers think about your customer service, you're bullshi**ing about ED, honestly, i just don't trust your afirmatives

It's Ed who has been in charge for well over a year... how can I provide units when I don't make them? I have absolutely no control of production and Ed does not update me on what is going on.

I get my news from this forum as much as you do. It is quite frankly ridiculous to blame me after Ed has been in charge for so long.

 

[rohezal]

I think best would be to post not here until tomorrow, get some sleep and craig calls ED or ED calls craig. Maybe they can save their friendship.

 

[Exophase]

It's Ed who has been in charge for well over a year... how can I provide units when I don't make them? I have absolutely no control of production and Ed does not update me on what is going on.

I get my news from this forum as much as you do. It is quite frankly ridiculous to blame me after Ed has been in charge for so long.

If this is how you feel then please just give ED your preorder list and forward all correspondence to him. I'm sure it won't make any difference to him since you've made it clear that you hold him financially responsible for the production of all of your outstanding preorders. I guess this means you won't be at any point in the future be contributing your own money to purchase units.

 

[craigix]

December was a difficult time to get a hold of ED (I tried for weeks because I wanted to get him to do DS videos ;p) but he's been pretty active since then. Probably a lot of people are hard to reach during the holidays.

Apart from that he was active on this forum within minutes during that time if someone had a complaint about something which might damage his reputation?

 

[_wb_]

Sorry to hear that you have given up on the Pandora project, Craig, but I understand (from a business perspective) that you don't want to spend any more time on this, because obviously, this is not an effective way to make a living.

In my opinion, it would be best now to give your remaining pre-order list to ED so he can directly get the units to those people and provide them with ETA's etc. I think that would help a lot to avoid a "bank rush" situation in which most of your remaining pre-orderers simultaneously ask for a refund, hoping to get it before OP Ltd. is dead, forcing OP Ltd. into liquidation.

I would do that but Ed has never given me a solid answer on what woud happen in the situation of OP Ltd going in to liquidation. That's the main reason I'm still running it. I won't let it go if it means people will just be left abandoned with no Pandora.

Well I don't think OP Ltd needs to go in liquidation before you can give that list to ED. OP Ltd would still be the company that has to pay back refunds and provide repairs under warranty; it makes sense to try to keep it alive at least until the warranty of most of its customers expires. But at least giving your queue details to ED would give you one less thing to worry about and would make it easier for ED to get those units shipped as soon as he can.

He has not made it clear to me that he will ship my orders out, only said he will do what he can if the time comes. That isn't solid enough for me, because I can see how based on past experience that could be turned against me and it could suddenly be my fault ... and no one from my list gets a Pandora.

If Ed will say here, in public he will ship all my remaining orders, then it can happen.

Let me get this straight. Basically ED (or rather his company) is sending out units for free to you as soon as his new sales make enough profit to produce them, so you can send them to your outstanding preorders. He has no obligation whatsoever to do that, except the moral obligation he feels towards those pre-orderers.

Now you're saying you don't want to help him with that (by providing him with a list of your preorderers) UNLESS he proclaims in public that he will ship all your remaining orders, without him even knowing how many are exactly on that list?

Sorry, but that sounds quite unreasonable to me. I think it's your moral obligation to help ED as well as you can so that he can try to solve this mess (your mess), and it's not up to you to demand any conditions. The only reason I can think of why you would demand such a condition would be that those "few hundred" remaining orders are a euphemism for a much bigger number than the 200-300 those words bring to mind (or the 150 that should be left according to ED).

You could also try irc, EvilDragon is in there most of the time (e.g. now).

I try him all the time on IRC, he never answers me.

I haven't seen you on #openpandora in months though.

 

[ShleeDragon]

It's Ed who has been in charge for well over a year... how can I provide units when I don't make them? I have absolutely no control of production and Ed does not update me on what is going on.


I get my news from this forum as much as you do. It is quite frankly ridiculous to blame me after Ed has been in charge for so long.

If this is how you feel then please just give ED your preorder list and forward all correspondence to him. I'm sure it won't make any difference to him since you've made it clear that you hold him financially responsible for the production of all of your outstanding preorders. I guess this means you won't be at any point in the future be contributing your own money to purchase units.

Craig. We want to listen to you, but you don't offer us much.... ED looks like the savour because his profits are going to your preorders.. and apparently that's not the real truth?


From what we have seen, ED has offered to send you units, and he's continued to send you units... units were based on sales. <- That part seems pretty simple to us.


edit: The only thing I know is unfair to you is - You don't have a shop to sell pandoras anymore.. so in theory, you send all sales to ED... who is supporting your queue that way.. but he could forget your queue existed if he wanted legally.


You've got his attention. Go talk it out! Figure out the next steps of this dance.... you've hopefully got the iCP2 under control and he's got the OPs under control. Talk it out already


Edit: Give ED the damn correct numbers.. at least give him the list.

 

[EvilDragon]

You do however seem to enjoy posting inaccurate arguments like that ^ over and over again, yes you did some things we suggested, but all far too late. Christmas was the last real chance to promote the Pandora and you just did nothing. Even though at one point I was trying for days on end to speak to you (with no answer).

Yes, I was not always online last year, as I had a lot of organizing to do.

Ask the guys at IRC, there were times where I was not available for days.

I still replied to all urgent eMails as soon as I could, though.

That new website was ready a year or so ago. There have also been numerous amounts of advice you didn't take and the website is still not complete, I could list so many things I've suggested to you but you don't ever make any attempt to speak to me. When did you last strike up a conversation with me? Or Michael, or Dave?

I just checked my mails... early August, I requested for the texts to translate into German and also had some suggestions what you should add (community repo link, language switcher, etc.)


Some stuff was needed for legal reasons (like the legal notice, the page which LINKS to shops rather than including yours directly on the website, etc.)

Mid August, you asked me again about the new website but I neither received the texts nor anything else to translate, nor has any of my suggestions be implemented.

September 7th, I requested these files once more... didn't get anything, so I gave up asking.

In December you came back to the webpage as you told me it's absolutely necessary to bring it online for promotion.

So I asked again (even in the public!) to at least include the changes needed for legal reasons.

Again, nothing happened, until I hacked it into the code myself to finally bring it online.

And yes, I sent Michael an eMail some time when I found the time, I've still got almost 24/7 work to do, so there's not much free time yet.

I'd be happy to hear any advices you gave me I haven't followed (unless I thought myself they are not good for some reasons), as I didn't find much.

But as soon as I post something here, suddenly you're online... suddenly I get a reply.

That might be because of Tapatalk, which can be used everywhere I go, whereas IRC is running on my home PC and when I'm on-the-go, I don't check it all the time.

Oh and I don't communicate enough? It's rather hard to do that when you don't answer my emails, or PMs, or commit to anything being a fact.

Well, let me know which one is still in need for a reply, as I can't find any.


If you find one, I'll reply right away.


I never criticized your internal communication (though I could have, as I am still missing a lot of replies which I gave up on...), but your public communication with your customers.

According to the boards here, a lot of the community feels the same.

Go ahead, blame me for whatever you like, but the fact is you have been in charge for a VERY long time now and you can't keep blaming me forever.

I really don't know where I'm blaming you.

I'm trying to help you, try to make you understand what you could improve in my opinion, that's not blaming.

The only blame I had in my last posts was that I didn't see any promotion you wanted to make, but that's it.


The communication issue was not a blame, it was something I tried to help you with. Open your eyes.


Well, and the rest were just replies to stuff you said about me. It seems I see things a bit differently. Is that not allowed?


Is that blaming?

That you have a Pandora to sell is because I paid for the development of it all, and Michael Weston designed it and DaveC made the case.

Well, yes. And I only sell Pandoras to get the debts back you pulled me into.


I explicitely told you I will ONLY take preorders if it's 100% sure everything will work smoothly, as I hate taking risks - especially with money that's not mine.

And I explicitely told you I don't have any money, but I can help with the community and website stuff.

So yes, if you never did it, I would be a happy guy.

The Pandora is nice, but the full story is the nightmare of my life and I'm trying to make the best of it.

If I could turn back the time, I would be happy if it never happened.

Shame you never speak to any of us anymore, blame me for whatever is going wrong, act as if we're a bit of an awkward part of history... and then you wonder why we're not really interested in promoting it?

I do speak to Michael sometimes when I find the time (which is rare, sadly), I never had much contact with Dave to begin with and I am still in very good contact with Fatih.


And I do reply to your eMails, if the eMail needs a reply.

Again, let me know which mail I missed and I'll reply to it.

And I told you over and over again when you were taking this over that the returns were coming in at an alarming rate, and yet here you posting that somehow that took you by surprise and now there are many more units to replace, suggesting I somehow lied. You have known about the rate of case, LCD and PCB failure for as long as you have been in charge with constant emails and reminders from me about just how bad the situation is/was. 

As far as I remember, that was AFTER I got the investors and when production had already started in Germany (which was half a year later)


At that time, the plan was already fixed.


Also, if those were returns from unsatisfied customers, they could've been shipped to the next customers and your queue would've shrunk.

Broken Pandoras? Well, you shipped 3 times as many Pandoras as I shipped, and the number you mentioned to me, you had 10 times more returns...?

That doesn't make much sense to me... 4 or 5 times maybe, if people were unlucky, but 10 times?

Why should so many more PCBs of your customers break than the ones I got for mine? 

LCD Cables were no reason to scrap the unit as well... so that couldn't have been an issue.

It's time for you to stop with with 'saviour of the community' thing and actually start taking your own advice and be honest about things.

I never said I'm a 'saviour of the community'.

I'm just trying to solve the situation as good and open as possible, with as little damage as possible and not ignoring mine or your customers.


I've been open to everyone, telling what's happening from my view, etc., while people (and myself) still try to figure out how many preorders you still have left.

Check the iCP2 thread, as that has nothing to do with the Pandora that I am taking care of:


So many people there ask for updates which had been promised on a weekly basis, including videos, etc.

Do you really want to tell me you're communication is excellent when the same issues happen with every project?

 

[rohezal]

Maybe consider this:

I think it would be best to stop posting here until tomorrow. Get some sleep and Craig calls ED or ED calls craig. Maybe they can save their friendship.

 

[taylor-madeak]

It's Ed who has been in charge for well over a year... how can I provide units when I don't make them? I have absolutely no control of production and Ed does not update me on what is going on.


I get my news from this forum as much as you do. It is quite frankly ridiculous to blame me after Ed has been in charge for so long.

If this is how you feel then please just give ED your preorder list and forward all correspondence to him. I'm sure it won't make any difference to him since you've made it clear that you hold him financially responsible for the production of all of your outstanding preorders. I guess this means you won't be at any point in the future be contributing your own money to purchase units.

What he said.

After this discourse, it has become clear to me that Craig has gone completely off his rocker.  You have "hundreds" of outstanding preorders, yet you completely refuse to even acknowledge any posts requesting that you divulge any details about said preorders.  Not even the exact number!  Just a vague "few hundred units."  You refuse to cooperate with your business partners in this endeavor, yet you seem to expect the situation to magically resolve itself with no input from you. 

I am now completely convinced: Craig has lost his mind.  He is completely, utterly daft.

 

[ShleeDragon]

Check the iCP2 thread, as that has nothing to do with the Pandora that I am taking care of:


So many people there ask for updates which had been promised on a weekly basis, including videos, etc.

Do you really want to tell me you're communication is excellent when the same issues happen with every project?

Yep, your iCP2 communication has been kinda bad.. posting some information in twitter when you should be using kickstarted updates and leaving three+ weeks between updates.


Considering how good you were at the beginning.... please check the iCP2 forums and reply to some of us.. write a nice long update for kickstarter  :rolleyes:

edit: Why do you not have something as simple as a staff irc channel to chill in and talk 24/7 over the last four years.

 

[Nintendo]

Last year Ed has made it clear to me he runs the OP show now. He has his own team of people who he takes advice from.

I have no influence on what he is doing or if we will ever get those missing units which he promised when he asked to take over production. That's just business I suppose. I do believe Ed did think he could supply them when he took over, but things often don't go to plan.

Occasionally he will send units to me which we then send to outstanding customers. 

I now work 95% of my time with a job elsewhere. My partner was made redundant from her job at the end of last year. The Pandora cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars to make happen, which I will never get back. I've come to terms with this.

Ed asked me to reduce my forum presence because I make waves or cause trouble for him or whatever, and I've done so.

I don't know who his 'investors' are, I don't know his business plan and have minimal contact with him. 

OP Ltd runs as a shell trying to finish up the remaining outstanding orders, and it will have done so before the end of this year (if things continue at the current rate), at which point it will be wound up. There are a few hundred remaining outstanding orders at the last count.

Alternatively if things do not continue at the current rate via Ed then the company will be placed in to liquidation (it has no assets - no one would get anything - not good). Ideally being patient means everyone gets their refund/Pandora, this is what we would like to happen.

The buy back/upgrade option is in process and should allow for enough money to finish things up.

There won't be a Pandora2.

Good luck to you and your gf.

 

[EvilDragon]

I would do that but Ed has never given me a solid answer on what woud happen in the situation of OP Ltd going in to liquidation. That's the main reason I'm still running it. I won't let it go if it means people will just be left abandoned with no Pandora.

I even wrote a few times in the public that I'll try to continue to support your customers as good as possible.


Which means: As long as there's enough profit, I will provide your customers with Pandoras and I'll also do cross-upgrades.


And AFAIR we discussed in November/December about a possible liquidation in IRC and I told you the same there (I could check the logs, don't have the full conversation in my head right now)

Well I don't think OP Ltd needs to go in liquidation before you can give that list to ED. OP Ltd would still be the company that has to pay back refunds and provide repairs under warranty; it makes sense to try to keep it alive at least until the warranty of most of its customers expires. But at least giving your queue details to ED would give you one less thing to worry about and would make it easier for ED to get those units shipped as soon as he can.

I'm already handling all warranty repairs for him for over a year, so that wouldn't be a problem.

He has not made it clear to me that he will ship my orders out, only said he will do what he can if the time comes. That isn't solid enough for me, because I can see how based on past experience that could be turned against me and it could suddenly be my fault ... and no one from my list gets a Pandora.


If Ed will say here, in public he will ship all my remaining orders, then it can happen.

I can say that I will for sure stick to my business plan until that 800 units (or an equal amount of money) have been used for OP Ltd., as planned.


I can also say that I will use ADDITIONAL profit (so more than I need to pay my investors back) will be used for remaining preorders of you.


I CANNOT say that I will ship all your remaining orders, especially not without knowing how many you still got.

But I guess that can be expected, as I cannot provide you an unlimited amount of money.

You could also try irc, EvilDragon is in there most of the time (e.g. now).

 
I try him all the time on IRC, he never answers me.

Most of the time when you talked to me on IRC and I tried to reply, you were gone already.

Especially December / early January was nigh impossible to get me on IRC, as I had a tax inquisition and accountings for 2012 to do, and other things.

I always checked my eMails and replied when a reply was needed, as mentioned.


And I'm almost always on the boards because of Tapatalk. I don't do mails or anything else on my phone though. 

 

[Klumpen]

 

[rohezal]

Agree with that. Maybe get some sleep and then do a phone call.

 

[Exophase]

Maybe you guys should sell Pandora brand popcorn for times like these, that'd generate a little bit of money

 

[Klumpen]

Maybe you guys should sell Pandora brand popcorn for times like these, that'd generate a little bit of money

It would have to taste bittersweet...