"estimated" Release Date

[emil10001]

@Monk:

I think you meant 'software based' instead of 'hardware based' problem.

Also, it is no just the official OP team doing the system softwaer development, there are a handfull of community members working on it. Those guys have been doing a ton of work behind the scenes. They seem to have been relatively unaffected by most of the hardware issues, and just keep plugging away. Not to mention that many other products ship out and let the community work out the kinks, which they usually do very quickly.

I can't really speak to the delays, but it does look like they are making good progress, and if you read all of Craig's posts, and follow the other devs, there is a pretty clear pattern of getting stuff done and crossed off the list over time. It may not be as fast as they had hoped, but still, they are progressing.

 

[Monk]

@Monk:

I think you meant 'software based' instead of 'hardware based' problem.

{reads own post furtively} Doh! Yup - OpenPandora are saying they are sure it's a software problem and not a hardware one. Let me edit that quickly in the original post... done! Thanks

Also, it is no just the official OP team doing the system softwaer development, there are a handfull of community members working on it. Those guys have been doing a ton of work behind the scenes. They seem to have been relatively unaffected by most of the hardware issues, and just keep plugging away. Not to mention that many other products ship out and let the community work out the kinks, which they usually do very quickly.

I have a tendency for War-And-Peace posts, and if I'm not very careful and try to keep to the point I tend to find I gloss over my own posts - heaven alone knows how most other people treat them! There's a whole load of reasons to be cheerful about the Pandora lately. My post was prompted by the seemingly too strong reaction to folk who are a bit cautious. I suspect there is an excellent chance that the Wifi problem IS software, and that it WILL be fixed before a second shipment goes out. However, I don't think that anyone voicing concerns about those or other aspects is necessarily "wrong2 or that there are no grounds for their fears. IMHO. YMMV.

I can't really speak to the delays, but it does look like they are making good progress, and if you read all of Craig's posts, and follow the other devs, there is a pretty clear pattern of getting stuff done and crossed off the list over time. It may not be as fast as they had hoped, but still, they are progressing.

We do indeed seem to be getting closer - it's getting quite exciting now, I think. I am hopeful that we'll see shipments before my son goes back to school in the Autumn term - which would be great

Ta,

 

[emil10001]

I suspect there is an excellent chance that the Wifi problem IS software, and that it WILL be fixed before a second shipment goes out. However, I don't think that anyone voicing concerns about those or other aspects is necessarily "wrong2 or that there are no grounds for their fears. IMHO. YMMV.

From what I have read, wifi is only acting up when it's on top of a full linux system. There were at least three posts by different people all saying very similar things. So, I don't see any reason to think otherwise, especially since at least one (Skeezix) of those is not invested in the project.

Aside from that point, I didn't think you were trying to be neagative or anything, I just wanted to make sure that people get a balanced perspective.

References for wifi development:
http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...mp;#entry732610
http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...mp;#entry732143
http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...mp;#entry732466

 

[b._.o._.b]

of those is not invested in the project.

Aside from that point, I didn't think you were trying to be neagative or anything, I just wanted to make sure that people get a balanced perspective.

References for wifi development:
http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...mp;#entry732610
http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...mp;#entry732143
http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...mp;#entry732466

Nice overview, but the fact remains you will get an unfinished product. Whether it is hardware or software that doesn't matter. I don't care about a gui right now, I'm even ok with writing a small script to use a program or piece of hardware. When we were warned about receiving a product that could need some updates, I think most of us were thinking about the gui and not drivers.
It does bother me you will only be sure you have a fully working device after using your device for a couple of months or so (the time we will need to wait for the driver).
That's the main issue and... what about guarantee after a long period?

Personally I think it is in everyone's interest (also that of Craigs) to sell the Pandora with at least all drivers in place so you can check yourself everything is fully functional. If that takes an extra month or so, you might receive a better product and less frustration.
Why take the risk after all this time?

 

[gilesjuk]

With wifi you need field testing, there's so many chipsets and quite a few different draft N implementations. It's best if there's a stable driver released ASAP and get people to test it. Not have the team spend money and lots of time testing with every router they can get their hands on.

 

[emil10001]

@b_o_b
They are selling these things with a 1-year warranty on every unit, as required by UK law. If there is a hardware issue, they have said countless times that they will fix it. They will likely not release a device with hardware issues for that reason. I do not, however, see a good reason not to release a device that you can prove that the hardware works for, and which only needs a bit of software to make fully functional. There are many potential arguments for this, so I'll just list two: 1) their buyers (us) wanted the device release 6 months ago, it's late, it needs to get out. 2) the more people who get their hands on this, the more people there are to develop and test a solution to this issue.

I can understand skepticism, but I cannot understand users who don't want the device released until the software is 100% stable and complete. In my experience, even with larger commercial devices like the nokia IT's, not everything was 100% for months after release. The n800 had an FM radio in it that didn't get drivers until about 6 months out. The hardware also supported SDHC, but the software did not until 6 months after release. I get that these are features that are in the spec for the device, but releasing as-is will not lengthen the time to get this bit working, instead it will likely shorten it, and in the mean time, you have a great device to play with.

 

[valhalla]

When we were warned about receiving a product that could need some updates, I think most of us were thinking about the gui and not drivers.

I know at least two of us were expecting missing drivers, and wifi was as likely a candidate as 3D.

 

[Monk]

of those is not invested in the project.

Aside from that point, I didn't think you were trying to be neagative or anything, I just wanted to make sure that people get a balanced perspective.

References for wifi development:
http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...mp;#entry732610
http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...mp;#entry732143
http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...mp;#entry732466

Ooh, some nice links there. I've found your posts a pleasure to read though it brings a wry smile to my face to realise you are trying to balance my posts which are, themselves, trying to balance other posts... we should join a circus!

Or have we already? But I digress. Lots of good snippets in those links, I especially like skeezix giving credit to notaz "and a couple others". From two perspectives, at least - it's nice to know *who* we're waiting on (personally I have more confidence in a named member of our community than in one of the vendors supplying components for this project). To me there's a world of difference between "it's one of the cleverer members of the community" and "it's a faceless corporation who may or may not get around to it this decade".

It's also amusing to read an update by Craig and think "YES! YES! This is almost completely meaningless to me but it's EXACTLY what people are asking for, it gives a great impression that things are getting done, even when they are sideways or backward motion and not just forwards.". That was great, before I realised he was taking the pith and the post was meant to show how meaningless such updates would be, if he did them. Doh! (yes, I was about to type "Great update Craig" before I realised the thread was closed).

Nice overview, but the fact remains you will get an unfinished product. Whether it is hardware or software that doesn't matter. I don't care about a gui right now, I'm even ok with writing a small script to use a program or piece of hardware. When we were warned about receiving a product that could need some updates, I think most of us were thinking about the gui and not drivers.

Ah, good - an opportunity to appear Schizo. Although valhalla has somewhat taken the wind out of my sails, as I recall the 3D drivers were not ready for the original shipment date and weren't AFAICS expected to be - they were one of a number of items that was "worryingly outstanding" but not expected to daly shipment of the device. So I THINK I recall that shipping with incomplete software was always going to be likely, even drivers being far from optimal. Although I don't recall it seeming likely that an aspect of the Pandora would actually fail to work (OK 3D would not have worked, but video would have... Wifi doesn't have IMHO a "base" version to fall back on if working drivers are not completed in time) we certainly were aware that the basic Operating System (not just applications to run on it) would improve after shipping time.

Why take the risk after all this time?

That's got to be a major component of this whole argument, as far as I can see. It's not just that the drivers aren't done, it's that we're told "they will be, and it will fix everything, anon" - but we're still being told that some 6 to 8 months after the unit should have shipped. What has prevented them from being fixed in all that time? What is to say that they won't still be "unfixed" in another 8 months time?. What's to say that, as with some other hardware we've had mentioned lately, the tests that have been run aren't like the tests other manufacturers have run prior to shipping their product - only to discover that the test itself was flawed and, in fact, the hardware IS at fault and needs a mod...

I'm quite chirpy about the prospects for the Pandora. I think they need to get the thing out, if only for their own morale (but especially for ours!) but I think it should be a fun little toy to play with, and I'd like to see it take over the world if only to annoy SONY. I'm not unaware of reasons to be unhappy with or doubt OpenPandora, but I think on the whole that they deserve a little bit more benefit of the doubt. I can EASILY think of a whole bunch of uses that my Pandora money could have gone to which would, IMHO, have been worse value for money than I hope the Pandora will be.


On the subject of Guarantees - most guarantees aren't worth the paper they are written on. They basically rely on trust/faith, some of which is I beleive in shorter supply than it was 8 months ago. You trust that the company/person making the guarantee will be able to honor it, that they will be around, solvent, and honourable for 12 months afterwards.

When does the guarantee start? Is it 12 months after purchase? Some people's warranty period could be more than half gone... and then there's the whole "proving it's a hardware problem". If it is - and if it isn't, if it's a software problem that - for whatever reason - never gets solved, then warranty likely doesn't cover it.

I'm more curious about how a WiFi chipset that isn't already proven to work with Linux gets itself chosen as THE chipset to use in a Linux device

 

[emil10001]

I've found your posts a pleasure to read though it brings a wry smile to my face to realise you are trying to balance my posts which are, themselves, trying to balance other posts... we should join a circus!

Heh, notice that I didn't say that I was trying to balance your posts, because I have noticed that you're one of the sane ones around here.

QUOTE
That's got to be a major component of this whole argument, as far as I can see. It's not just that the drivers aren't done, it's that we're told "they will be, and it will fix everything, anon" - but we're still being told that some 6 to 8 months after the unit should have shipped. What has prevented them from being fixed in all that time? What is to say that they won't still be "unfixed" in another 8 months time?. What's to say that, as with some other hardware we've had mentioned lately, the tests that have been run aren't like the tests other manufacturers have run prior to shipping their product - only to discover that the test itself was flawed and, in fact, the hardware IS at fault and needs a mod...


I would guess (this is just a guess based on what I have read) there are probably a few things going on here. First, since the hardware and software development have been broken down into groups of people with possibly different itterations of hardware, it is entirely likely that some of the software devs didn't have the wifi chips for their boards, at least initially. They hadn't finished testing the wifi chip/antenae until relatively recently, and may not have wanted to use extra chips giving all of the different itterations to all of the devs who wouldn't necessarily even use it.

Also, not all the hardware people had the latest software (case in point MWeston, as seen in a couple of his videos). They didn't really need the full system to test that the hardware was working, and weren't necessarily as interested in playing with it as they were the hardware. This means that the people doing hw work, like testing the wifi, probably weren't testing on a full system.

It is possible that the chip maker may not have delivered the Linux drivers until more recently. (See below for a possible fourth reason).

QUOTE
I'm more curious about how a WiFi chipset that isn't already proven to work with Linux gets itself chosen as THE chipset to use in a Linux device


I would venture a guess, based on very little actual evidence, that this chipset might have been used with one of Nokia's ITs, and that perhaps Nokia has a custom Linux driver that they built becuase the one that ships doesn't work too well. That would explain their choice in chips and their talking with Nokia about a fix. But that's just a guess.

So, I'm not trying to make excuses here, but these all seem like plausible reasons as to why we are in the situation that we are with the wifi, as well as why I don't think that it will take another 6 months to get fixed (all devs will have up-to-date hw and sw after units ship).

 

[Monk]

err, some reasonable-sounding guesswork there. Err... I pretty much suck at posts when I don't have contrary POV to examine

 

[noonioo]

so there will be at least two months to get pandora done:

1.new case moulding ( 45, as update stated)
2.massive producing ( 30+, vaguely remember)
3.shipping (3~5)

 

[pelrun]

Case mould creation and board mass production can run concurrently; don't just add the days up.

 

[Kyo]

even so, they aren't moulding now, so you can add another 15 days for finishing the case, checking it and then starting MP

 

[RajTakhar]

I guess july is out of the window and mid aug to september is more realistic??

Given testing and stuff

 

[ep0ch]

QUOTE
1.new case moulding ( 45, as update stated)
2.massive producing ( 30+, vaguely remember)


So the above run in parallel. And if the estimated times above are the time to complete ALL the cases and assembling... Then it's 4000 (cases) divided by 45 (days).That's roughly 90 cases produced a day. So in 3 days 250 cases could get produced. These then get shipped off for assembly whilst the other cases are made.

So I'll make a COMPLETE WILD GUESS and say the early adopters could get their Pandora in 5 wks time and the last batch in 2 months

 

[Monk]

Those who learn nothing from history are doomed to repeat it.

IMHO making "soonest possible delivery date" estimates are an exercise in frustration. The more I think about ED's blog update, the happier I am with it - but not because of any dating information that can be extracted from it. It shows (I beleive) an honesty and an attention to detail that confirm, to me, the quality I can expect when the package eventually arrives. It ALSO confirms that almost any problem the Pandora has will (and probably can) be laid at the feet of the pressure OpenPandora feel to "get this out the door".

I'd rather they didn't feel pressured to the point where they make mistakes - even small ones - in favour of not losing their houses. I'd also rather we didn't have predictions of "5 weeks or more","6 weeks at least" and so on because when we reach 5 weeks or 6 weeks (or whatever) there's going to be another round of sadness/anger as that _USER_CALCULATED_ milestone passes without mass delivery of Pandoras.

Better overall, perhaps, to enjoy the fact that we're getting nearer and to send Pickle a PM asking him to port AvP (honestly, that will speed up Pandora production. Trust me).

 

[urjaman]

So in 3 days 250 cases could get produced.

When the case moulds are ready they can make all the cases in a day, i dont really remember the number the case factory can make in a day, but it was more than 4000. They just need to make the moulds first, in order to make the cases. That ofcourse means that propably all the cases will come in a single big batch.

 

[b._.o._.b]

After reading the updates from Ed I think the OP team is still on schedule for November 17th! Good job

Based on some previous milestones I would say November 17th, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was deferred to January 2010.

 

[valhalla]

.That's roughly 90 cases produced a day. So in 3 days 250 cases could get produced. These then get shipped off for assembly whilst the other cases are made.

AFAIK the factory can produce 5000 cases per day, once the moulds are ready; the other 44 days are just for mould productions.

 

[hedwards]

.
That's the main issue and... what about guarantee after a long period?

And how is that different than what we've known for quite a while? If you don't want the hardware in the shape that it's going to be in at launch, that's your prerogative, I'm sure there's plenty of people that would be willing to take your place in line.

We've known that ordering in the first batch would be sort of risky and without a whole lot of software support at first since before anybody actually paid. When it comes to the software side, it's much more likely that things will be fixed promptly when the hardware gets into the hands of the community than relying upon the devs to handle it and everything else. We've also known for quite some time that it probably wouldn't be 100% complete and most people seem to be reasonably OK with that assuming it gets fixed.

Yes, you do have a point about being unable to completely rule out hardware bugs if the driver doesn't work 100%, but then again, my WII doesn't actually handle a full key length for my wireless access point either, and they could have fixed that a long time ago.

At some point, reasonable objections become trolling and just wear people out. You're entitled to your opinion, but a lot of us would rather have the hardware without a finished driver than wait perpetually while minor things get fixed to absolute perfection. In short I'm not sure the level of testing you're expecting would be reasonable out of Nintendo or Sony, let alone a much smaller developer like openpandora.