Drm Restricted Commercial Games

[nubie]

Woah... nubie, calm down

You're right, I did miss an option... I guess it never ocured to me that someone might want to vote:

5) More likely to buy (I like DRM protected games / I dislike games without copy protection)

I was assuming that someone who didn't mind DRM would be no more likely to buy if it was present and would therefore want to vote "no change".

That was wrong, but it was only an oversight, no need to type all in bold at me, accuse me of bias or insult my ancestors

I apologize, I was venting a little bit. (mostly at redeemen)

I will un-caps my previous post.

Honestly I don't see what is so bad about DRM in this case, PC games are mostly DRM, it doesn't stop anyone from enjoying them.

If anything the GP2X having some copyright protection makes more sense as it's main storage medium IS an SD card, unlike a PC which has comparatively unlimited HD space.

I just want to see commercial games from the mainstream, so do many others.

DRM is a necessary evil to get those, I am willing to accept that, especially because craigix is not a bad guy and will be trying to appease both the game developers, and the ways his costomers want to use the games.

Honestly, the DRM on this console is a harmless fluffy little kitten that has been declawed and has ring-worm compared to anything M$ or $ony has ever used.

I point out that if you are that paranoid and upset about the DRM (even though it is so much better than the P$2 or P$P) don't buy the games, just the fact you are bitching your little heads away is confusing to me.

If it is a personal preference, keep it to yourself (personally, so to speak.)

With the P$2 and the P$P you never get a choice as to what to run, with this console it has been months and thousands are enjoying it without paying for a single piece of software, that is why I can't understand you.

EDIT:

I further am confused because you don't even know what form the DRM will take, basically you had to get in a little non-constructive pre-information bitching.

I suppose that is what I am most upset at, you didn't even consider that the DRM might be transparent, you have no concrete information as to the form and possible inconvenience of the software that will be for sale.

It seems as though you are one-celled in you response, DRM = Bad, I don't see any intelligent conversation about the ways that both the developers and the purchasers can both be happy.

As I understand it the developers are likely to be users that wish to use it the same ways we would, in that case doesn't it make sense that they would make sure we can use the games the ways we want?

I notice that good demos are available that aren't DRM, play those.

 

[Redeeman]

Honestly I don't see what is so bad about DRM in this case, PC games are mostly DRM, it doesn't stop anyone from enjoying them.

thats not true, alot less than 50% of all new PC games use DRM, trust me, i know, i am involved with the WINE project, where the problems of drm/copy protection are truely felt, for users of wine (legitimate buyers of the software), aswell as the developers.

 

[FluffyPanda]

Honestly I don't see what is so bad about DRM in this case, PC games are mostly DRM, it doesn't stop anyone from enjoying them.

Actually it does. At work I've had a few people come to me with bugs related to copy protection on games, one was causing system instability and several that just stopped them playing the game. All of them returned the product.

I just want to see commercial games from the mainstream, so do many others.

<snip>

I further am confused because you don't even know what form the DRM will take, basically you had to get in a little non-constructive pre-information bitching.

You're misunderstanding my position. I don't want them to avoid DRM for my benefit particularly, but because I genuinely believe that it will hurt sales. EA might not notice the odd return of one of their games due to problems with the copy protection, but small companies coding for the gp2x will suffer if people avoid it because emulation/homebrew is so much more convenient.

I suppose that is what I am most upset at, you didn't even consider that the DRM might be transparent, you have no concrete information as to the form and possible inconvenience of the software that will be for sale.

Transparent DRM is DRM that doesn't work. If it doesn't restrict something then it's not doing its job.

It seems as though you are one-celled in you response, DRM = Bad, I don't see any intelligent conversation about the ways that both the developers and the purchasers can both be happy.

As I understand it the developers are likely to be users that wish to use it the same ways we would, in that case doesn't it make sense that they would make sure we can use the games the ways we want?

Again, DRM exists to control what you can do with the software. There's an implicit lack of trust and reduced functionality present the moment it is added in any form and that might slow sales (which is A Bad Thing(tm)). It'll be hard enough to compete with DRMDx on the gp2x, why handicap yourself further?

(as an aside, I've just noticed the first three letters of that emulator - lol)

I notice that good demos are available that aren't DRM, play those.

I don't want to play demos, I want to pay for games and help to make this console a success. Lost sales due to unpopular DRM will hurt my chances of finding good commercial games in the future.

 

[5465756e]

In my opinion all DRM implementations are an extra reason NOT to buy because they prevent certain usage which is perfectly legal. Eg:
Running my game on a (different) new GP2X (if the software is locked to the serial).
Lending a game to a friend.
Playing the game if the manufacture is bankrupt (e.g. half-life 2).
Playing an audio CD in certain CD players (e.g. car stereo's).
Replacing certain hardware (e.g. Windows).
Privacy violations. (e.g. World of Warcraft).
Extended loading times (e.g. all StarForce protected games).

People who don't want to pay for a product won't pay anyway. DRM is just annoying (and scaring off) paying customers.

DRM is fine as soon as all those issues are solved.

ps: nice comment FluffyPanda.

 

[Redeeman]

DRM is fine as soon as all those issues are solved.

which again, means, no drm

 

[scorpio]

I further am confused because you don't even know what form the DRM will take, basically you had to get in a little non-constructive pre-information bitching.

Well, we've asked, and Craig has only answered selectively, so at this stage I think we're pretty much free to speculate. It's not like you've exactly been constructive in your comments anyway (have you read any of the other threads which led to the creation of this one?)

 

[Radek]

The "DRM" is not needed.

The technology will soon provide us with flash based memories in GB range at very decent prices. Make them read only and in very small and convenient form. There isn't a reason why tens of them couldn't be putted even in handheld like the GP2x.

Even better - add some logic into such cartridge - I can buy PLD chips with around 800 logic gates for less than ~2$. The µC are dirt cheap as well.

See my point?

The software should merge with hardware as both are really the same - the function.

Advances in CPLD/FPGA/µC/flash are already making it possible. And when title is bound in physical form then software piracy is impossible.
(and you have all consumers rights as with any physical product)

Silicon chips are cheap. Time when dealing with some outrageous "DRM" isn't.
(and I will not go into such things like the fair use or others)

 

[nubie]

The "DRM" is not needed.

The technology will soon provide us with flash based memories in GB range at very decent prices. Make them read only and in very small and convenient form. There isn't a reason why tens of them couldn't be putted even in handheld like the GP2x.

Even better - add some logic into such cartridge - I can buy PLD chips with around 800 logic gates for less than ~2$. The µC are dirt cheap as well.

See my point?

The software should merge with hardware as both are really the same - the function.

Advances in CPLD/FPGA/µC/flash are already making it possible. And when title is bound in physical form then software piracy is impossible.
(and you have all consumers rights as with any physical product)

Silicon chips are cheap. Time when dealing with some outrageous "DRM" isn't.
(and I will not go into such things like the fair use or others)

Question:

Isn't what you just said digital rights management?

The game is on a digital media, and is being managed so that you cannot copy it.

Ahem, Digital Rights Management.

sorry, Radek, that is what DRM means.

Edit:

I also would like to point out the fact that all of you are using Secure Digital cards in your GP2X's, (I am not sure of the status of MMC cards yet, they didn't work when I had my GP2X), in which case you already have the important parts of the DRM in place. Secure Digital cards are called that because of the copy protection and serial numbers designed into them, the MMSP2 chip made by MagicEyes has the hardware to use that DRM inside it already, I can't believe that games won't be at least just using what the console already has.

 

[FluffyPanda]

Isn't what you just said digital rights management?

The game is on a digital media, and is being managed so that you cannot copy it.

No, there's a distinct difference.

With a read only medium like a gba cart the technology used does not permit copying. That technology may have been chosen for this feature, or it may have been chosen for rapid start up times, ability to add extra logic chips, etc. It doesn't matter, the fact is that the medium itself doesn't allow copying.

With software on an SD you are having to actually add some kind of software control to restrict the capabilities of the device - DRM.

To use an analogy, a gba cart is like bying a car with a petrol engine. It is the nature of the engine that you can't use diesel and that is perfectly reasonable.

A locked SD is like buying a car and discovering that it will only accept dunlop tyres and pertol from Esso, not because they are superior in any way, but because Ford has decided to license the rights to those 2 companies.

It's the difference between being restricted by the limits of the technology and being restricted artificially by the producer of that technology. Every new restriction is one more thing that you might have wanted to do that is being taken away, not because it's just not possible at the moment, but because someone has decided that you can't be trusted.

 

[invinciblegod]

Doesnt SD card have a built in DRM function? It was designed that way (hence SECURE digital). Just no one used it up to now. If I am somehow wrong on this, please correct me.

 

[FluffyPanda]

Indeed it does

The digital rights management scheme embedded in the SD cards is defined as the Content Protection for Recordable Media (CPRM) by the 4C Entity and is centered around use of the Cryptomeria cipher (also known as C2). The specification is kept secret and is only accessible to licensees. DVD-Audio use a very similar scheme known as Content Protection for Prerecorded Media (CPPM).

However, I'm not overly concerned about where the DRM comes from or how it's implimented, only whether it is there or not.

edit: The quote is from wikipedia. Apparantly the board strips name="wikipedia" from the quote tag since it isn't a user name.

 

[el_monkeyo]

I'm slightly surprised at the resistance to all forms of DRM on the GP2X. Obviously no one wants Sony CD style rootkits surreptitiously screwing up their machines, but on the other hand do we really only want to play emus and ports of old games designed for other systems?

The GP2X is, lets face it, a bit of a geeks toy; and as such, I’d confidently predict that most, if not all users have a link to a less than totally legitimate Bittorrent site or two saved in their favourites. If someone were to release a great ‘triple A’ commercial GP2X game without any DRM, it would be on ‘I So Pirate Hunt Nova’, or something, with in days.

Some people might say: “Well, if it’s a good game, I’ll make a donation to the developers, or actually buy the retail version once I’ve downloaded and played it”, and may be they would, but anyone who actually believes everyone, or even most people will do the same is living in a dream world.

Some of the posts on this thread have already made it clear that some people don’t really think they should have to pay for any games. May be they’d be happier if the GP2X stayed as an obscure niche l33t homebrew device that they can impress their I.T. buddies with by running Samba or Apache or whatever. Not me though; I love the fact people can easily develop their own stuff, it kind of reminds me of the C64/Spectrum days (I also wonder if Sony’s profits wouldn’t be enhanced if they’d allowed it on the PSP, but that’s probably a bit off topic...), but I also want great games. If someone has spent a lot of time and effort making a great game, they shouldn’t have to worry that the first little bastard who buys it is going to give it away to everyone else in the world.

Someone will, I’ve no doubt, find a way of beating any DRM used on commercial games, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be used. The more people have to do to get pirate games to run (installing patches, using key-gens etc.), the more they’ll be reminded that actually they’re stealing from the developer. And going back to what I was saying about the old 8-bit days, we’ll never have a GP2X Codemasters without DRM.

 

[saboteur]

I don't object to games being tied to an SD card, I don't object to buying software either - I like to think people will get paid for their work.

I would like to know if the company selling the game will gaurantee the media they supply it on - especially if the media needs to be constatntly accessed by the game/software.

Just my two penneth - now bring on the commercial games.

 

[FluffyPanda]

Some people might say: “Well, if it’s a good game, I’ll make a donation to the developers, or actually buy the retail version once I’ve downloaded and played it”, and may be they would, but anyone who actually believes everyone, or even most people will do the same is living in a dream world.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Do you know how hard it would be for me to pirate "star wars: empire at war"? Not hard at all. I bet you I can have a torrent downloading within 10 minutes and by this time tomorrow have it installed and ready to play.

But I didn't. I ordered it from play.com and waited the 10 days it took to arrive to italy.

My point is this, people can pirate games very easily indeed, so much so that it's often easier than buying the product, and yet people do still pay for games. The idea that no one will pay for something that they can easily and illegally acquire for free doesn't hold up in the real world, let alone this fantasy world that people keep telling me I must live in.

 

[Aninhumer]

Actually, if I'd already paid for a game, I wouldn't wait for the delivery if I could get it through a torrent.
Now being bothered to find a torrent is a different matter...

 

[FluffyPanda]

Ah, but then you're adding to all those lovely piracy statistics. Clearly by donloading a game you've already paid for you're causing a lost sale. Piracy statistics are so unreliable that they're funny.

 

[Radek]

Isn't what you just said digital rights management?

The game is on a digital media, and is being managed so that you cannot copy it.

No, there's a distinct difference.

With a read only medium like a gba cart the technology used does not permit copying. That technology may have been chosen for this feature, or it may have been chosen for rapid start up times, ability to add extra logic chips, etc. It doesn't matter, the fact is that the medium itself doesn't allow copying.

Another difference is that with cartridges you are owning something physically. You can sell it where it isn't always true for software licences.

You can do with it everything you would like too (drill holes for an example ).

IMHO technology got good enough to provide us with very small, big capacities and extra functionally cartridges. Look at the current SD cards and imagine such ones at 1/4 of size. You could put many of them into handheld.

How many software/games you can use at the same time anyway?

Ah at but then you're adding to all those lovely piracy statistics. Clearly by donloading a game you've already paid for you're causing a lost sale. Piracy statistics are so unreliable that they're funny.

Even better - those statistic are making a generous assumption that every pirated copy would mean every bought licence if pirate couldn't pirate.

It's the same as with captures of narcotic shipments - the media are making big "wow" how many milions worth of some substance were denied from some mafia. But such figures have only meaning for the end user prices on the blackmarket as narcotics are cheap to produce. The effective loss for mafia is very low but lets have the media shows!

Where I live (Poland, Europe) there was scandal some time ago as some higher level police officers were capturing drugs shipments, then faking destroying them and providing them back into blackmarket. Great, wasn't it?

 

[Anhaedra]

The "DRM" is not needed.

The technology will soon provide us with flash based memories in GB range at very decent prices. Make them read only and in very small and convenient form. There isn't a reason why tens of them couldn't be putted even in handheld like the GP2x.

Even better - add some logic into such cartridge - I can buy PLD chips with around 800 logic gates for less than ~2$. The µC are dirt cheap as well.

See my point?

The software should merge with hardware as both are really the same - the function.

Advances in CPLD/FPGA/µC/flash are already making it possible. And when title is bound in physical form then software piracy is impossible.
(and you have all consumers rights as with any physical product)

Silicon chips are cheap. Time when dealing with some outrageous "DRM" isn't.
(and I will not go into such things like the fair use or others)

Even if they make the SD cards read-only though, couldn't people simply copy the contents of the card and torrent it?

 

[Hanz™]

The "DRM" is not needed.

The technology will soon provide us with flash based memories in GB range at very decent prices. Make them read only and in very small and convenient form. There isn't a reason why tens of them couldn't be putted even in handheld like the GP2x.

Even better - add some logic into such cartridge - I can buy PLD chips with around 800 logic gates for less than ~2$. The µC are dirt cheap as well.

See my point?

The software should merge with hardware as both are really the same - the function.

Advances in CPLD/FPGA/µC/flash are already making it possible. And when title is bound in physical form then software piracy is impossible.
(and you have all consumers rights as with any physical product)

Silicon chips are cheap. Time when dealing with some outrageous "DRM" isn't.
(and I will not go into such things like the fair use or others)

Even if they make the SD cards read-only though, couldn't people simply copy the contents of the card and torrent it?

If they can copy the card.
And what use would it be if they couldn't then copy the same data back onto a generic card.

 

[nubie]

Edit:

I also would like to point out the fact that all of you are using Secure Digital cards in your GP2X's, (I am not sure of the status of MMC cards yet, they didn't work when I had my GP2X), in which case you already have the important parts of the DRM in place. Secure Digital cards are called that because of the copy protection and serial numbers designed into them, the MMSP2 chip made by MagicEyes has the hardware to use that DRM inside it already, I can't believe that games won't be at least just using what the console already has.

Doesnt SD card have a built in DRM function? It was designed that way (hence SECURE digital). Just no one used it up to now. If I am somehow wrong on this, please correct me.

I don't know how you missed it, but I did point out exaclty what you said, last night.

P.S. pretend the SD cards are cartridges. SD has a serial number and the game can be tied to the serial number so that it only plays on that SD card, a batch of the SD cards is made with the same serial number and the game is compiled to that number.

How is that any different from a cartridge?