Drm Restricted Commercial Games

[Redeeman]

The real way forward I believe for the GP2x, is to sell the games cheaply by e-mailing the games, without software protection, when their money is received, and trust their honesty not to copy it to other users.

If games are cheap enough (c. £5-£8 each), there is no reason for people to pirate; and far more sales will be achieved with the same profit margin - If you don't need to supply your software on a SD card, have a printed manual, box, distribution costs, etc; you could potentially sell a game for its profit value alone (£5-£8 a game). This would remove piracy and increase sales.

The better the software protection, the more restrictive it is, and the more the software costs, the more chance that the game will get cracked, pirated and downloaded for free anyway; the only people to suffer will be the legitimate buyers. Make the software cheap and everyone wins...

i kindof agree with this, allthough i am very much in agreement that mailing games, or download via http, with login, is the way gp2x games will be sold in largest quantities, with most profit, for me personally, i would probably in some cases also buy boxed version if available, because i want the cool box, even though i know the box costs, however, i will not buy any game that has DRM, because the copy protection is added to stop others from stealing it, i do not wish to pay to stop others from stealing, i want to pay to get the game.

so the best allaround solution is probably something like you suggest. games should be centrally bought and tracked, perhaps controlled by craig, so you get an account, login, then you can buy the games and are free to download them. a system somewhat like valves Steam.

my suggestion:
create gp2xgames.com, then people can freely create an account, and then with credit card/paypal/bank transfer buy games, then they have the game available.

then you have two options:
1: enter a gp2x uuid, and download a version of the game which runs on only one gp2x, the one with that specific uuid.
2: download game in encrypted format, with a small activation application, which decrypts it on the gp2x, and locks it to that specific gp2x uuid. the activation program requires your password to activate the application.

this way, the games could be tracked, so that if one person begins to request 1000 copies of the game for different uuids, it would make gp2xgames.com suspecious, perhaps even a restriction so these copies required approval. (ofcourse this would require that a person from gp2xgames.com checks these requests very often.)

and with option number 2 available, it also ensures that in 100 years when gp2x is only a myth, someone can create an emulator, and use the static activation application he inherited from his grand dad, and the following password, to activate the game and run on his emulator.

and option number 2 also ensures that people cant just smash up a torrent, as the activation application would require password, and if someone distributed that password, well.. then he'd be in a court the next day with a $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ lawsuit.


with these options available, i can accept it. as it wouldnt restrict me from doing anything, having even only number 2 available, is good enough. and i know, that someone would eventually leak the encrypted files, which would be cracked, but well.. as would the more restrictive type of DRM, so this is as good for protecting the games as the more default and restrictive DRM/copy protecting works, just that this doesent annoy normal legitimate customers.

 

[FluffyPanda]

rokdcasbah: Yeah, I know how it works. Courney Love has a great article out there about how the real pirates are the labels, you can google for it if you're interested. However, promoting any kind of illegal activity, even if it is a morally just one, only serves to weaken an argument like this. Like you say though, this isn't the place to discuss it.

Redeeman: Things are getting a bit complicated like that. Remember the old days of Doom? The classic shareware marketting model worked wonders for id. Everybody (and I mean EVERYBODY) had a copy of Doom episode one on a floppy somewhere and lots of people paid for the full thing. I don't even remember any copy protection on the full game, now that I think about it.

EA or Vivendi may well have a point when they claim that copy protection helps them (I don't think so, but I'm prepared to accept that it's possible) but for a small firm getting your product out to as many people as possible and trusting that the majority will pay seems to work much better. It also breeds a kind of "well, they trust us enough to not screw us with unnecessary restrictions" attitude. For a small, community-fed device that can go a long way.

How many more gp2xes do you think craig sold based on the fact that he's a nice guy on these forums and a valuable member of the community? That's the right way to market to the gp2x crowd: build trust, listen and get involved.


I wonder how many times I've said the same thing in this thread... I'll try to shut up now.

 

[Mithent]

I don't currently own a GP2X. However, if I did, I'd much rather have it DRMed to the machine rather than the SD card - much better to have one large SD card with everything you want on it, rather than have to carry around multiple SD cards and pay for reasonably expensive SD media plus postage every time.

Of course, in general I'd much rather that there was no such restriction, and that they sold online at a decent price without DRM - the same argument as with music for me. I will not buy music online because of the DRM (yay, I can't use it on my MP3 player or Pocket PC), whereas I would if there was no DRM, so they're losing money from me at least. At least with the GP2X there's only one device that it will play on (unless you have more than one GP2X).

 

[scorpio]

so the best allaround solution is probably something like you suggest. games should be centrally bought and tracked, perhaps controlled by craig, so you get an account, login, then you can buy the games and are free to download them. a system somewhat like valves Steam.

I couldn't accept this, because it has an external dependency. Look at all the problems Valve had with the early days of Half-Life 2 because the Steam servers weren't working properly. Granted, the problems have been mainly solved, but it's not a shadow I'd like to be under.

Many, many programs just use a unique serial number to register and unlock features, and that's pretty much as far as I'd be willing to go.

Piracy figures based on "lost sales" are pretty much pulled out of the air, and I think a lot of it has to do with the desire for companies to inflate their sales figures. There's no easier way to claim that they could have sold a lot more than to say that loads of people didn't buy it because they copied it instead, but we know that's simply not the case. It's not a black and white choice. Yes, there are a number of people who would have bought it except that they got a free copy, but in the majority of those cases, the marginal reduction in price probably would have brought them into the legitimate owners' fold.

The problem with anybody trying to come up with hard figures on this sort of thing is that there is so much bogus/lazy research funded by the corporate entities to skew the results in their own favour, and that copying music & software is such a demonised activity, that the people who would give the most accurate results if they participated accurately are the people most likely to push the results the other way because of the fear of how they will be perceived.

There are a lot of things that we are all far too judgemental about (and I'll admit that DRM is one of my bugbears), which pushes the activity you need to observe beyond the observable limits. The end result is that research and customer satisfaction becomes impossible, because the observe/modify cycle is distorted.

If a company wants to use DRM then that's their choice, but I won't buy the product, and I won't be shamed into buying the product because "the community needs my support."

In pretty much all things, coercion is the least successful way of getting long-term results. I think history pretty much proves that. The only way it works is if you have a dictatorship that can rule and enforce for an indefinite period. Once the iron fist is lifted, the desire for freedom usually leads to an overcompensation in the response.

I'm not trying to go all Mark Steel on everybody, so I'll stop here, but I think this topic has pretty much proved how contentious an issue DRM and copy-protection is in general.

 

[Redeeman]

so the best allaround solution is probably something like you suggest. games should be centrally bought and tracked, perhaps controlled by craig, so you get an account, login, then you can buy the games and are free to download them. a system somewhat like valves Steam.

I couldn't accept this, because it has an external dependency. Look at all the problems Valve had with the early days of Half-Life 2 because the Steam servers weren't working properly. Granted, the problems have been mainly solved, but it's not a shadow I'd like to be under.

Many, many programs just use a unique serial number to register and unlock features, and that's pretty much as far as I'd be willing to go.

what i suggested wasnt exactly like steam, you would only be depending on the server when you want to actually download the game, which you can do once, when you buy it, and then happily forget about it. i wasnt suggesting that you actually need the activation program to call home..

 

[scorpio]

what i suggested wasnt exactly like steam, you would only be depending on the server when you want to actually download the game, which you can do once, when you buy it, and then happily forget about it. i wasnt suggesting that you actually need the activation program to call home..

Sorry, I thought you meant when you install the game, so my objection was that there might be any number of reasons why you might need to re-install and not have access to the server, or the server might no longer exist. I saw you use the word "steam" and saw red. :lol:

I guess it would be something like emusic.com, where you can log in, buy your mp3s and download them, but if you accidentally delete them, you have to log in again to re-download them. If the company goes bust, then you should hope you have backup copies of your files!

I could live with that.

 

[nubie]

Why does the poll not allow you to select that you'd be willing to buy the games with DRM without saying you'd pirate them? That doesn't make much sense.

That would be option 3:

No more or less likely to buy (Piracy isn't an option, DRM doesn't bother me)

Another problem is you can't sell the game if you don't like it. (Unless you sell your GP2X with it).

Which is actually a legally protected right as a consumer. Software companies have been trying for years to label their goods as services to screw the consumer out of his right to resell.

Hello, you sir are as ignorant as you are beautiful (I just had to avoid a large string of expletives, a few references to your ancestors and some comments as to your preferred forms of coitus),

He wishes an option that is not available:

More likely to buy (I will NOT pirate if possible)

Your poll is biased so as to not allow me to vote the way I wish.

I would be more likely to buy a game with DRM, as I stated before this shows to me that the company is serious about it's product.

You insinuate that if we are more likely to buy a DRM game we would pirate it if we could.

Shame on you.

 

[tshroom]

lets face it. The commercial games will be pirated regardless of DRM or not. I think the DRM is a waste of resources and a hassle on the GP2x fans. I personally feel that the GP2x commercial games should be sold in a pay to download service, which would eliminate the costs of packaging, shipping, etc. This would also allow users to put all their commercial games on one SD instead of having to carry around several cards. The main draw of the GP2x is its an all in one machine.. You don't need to carry around tons of carts or game cards. I don't want to speak too soon, but I am sure everyone in this community would willingly pay $5-$10 for a decent download. This would make distribution simple and effective. It would cost virtually nothing to include on the gp2x uk official site. Many computer companies offer games through a DL service. Just use something simple like a serial key for protection on the downloads.

 

[ingrin]

Obviously, he meant piracy isn't an option, ethically. It is the correct choice, and the one I chose.

But...

 

[Radek]

Why cartridges must be so big today?

If you could put say 20 if them into handheld like the GP2x would you complain?

Technology allows that now - even better the cartrige could provide some extra chip for additional processing power.

 

[Julius]

Instead of using a anonymous serial number, why not use the registered real name (and address), thus people will shy away from uploading it to some webpage/P2P and only give it to some close personal friends at the maximum.
This can be of course cracked, but so can be DRM and it needs a skilled person to do it, which is pretty unlikely to happen.

Edit: and you can not forget your 'serial number'

 

[Aninhumer]

I think that the DRM will be cracked, and the point I was making earlier is that it doesn't matter how hard it is to crack, unless it's impossible. If one person cracks it, no one else needs to.

But I like the name address thing, that's an excellent example of lateral thinking! Now if only I could remember my real name

 

[FluffyPanda]

Woah... nubie, calm down

You're right, I did miss an option... I guess it never ocured to me that someone might want to vote:

5) More likely to buy (I like DRM protected games / I dislike games without copy protection)

I was assuming that someone who didn't mind DRM would be no more likely to buy if it was present and would therefore want to vote "no change".

That was wrong, but it was only an oversight, no need to type all in bold at me, accuse me of bias or insult my ancestors

Peace.

Instead of using a anonymous serial number, why not use the registered real name (and address), thus people will shy away from uploading it to some webpage/P2P and only give it to some close personal friends at the maximum.

Edit: and you can not forget your 'serial number'

lol, that's creative I am moving house in a couple of weeks though... :unsure:

Maybe your social security number... you wouldn't find people putting that on the web

 

[Paradox]

so the best allaround solution is probably something like you suggest. games should be centrally bought and tracked, perhaps controlled by craig, so you get an account, login, then you can buy the games and are free to download them. a system somewhat like valves Steam.

I couldn't accept this, because it has an external dependency. Look at all the problems Valve had with the early days of Half-Life 2 because the Steam servers weren't working properly. Granted, the problems have been mainly solved, but it's not a shadow I'd like to be under.

what problems? Everyone pre-loaded HL2 with steam weeks before the release, and the day of the release everyone got the final 10mb or something to complete the game, and started playing. I was there for the numerous release party's on irc and nobody had any problems at all.

 

[Prothall]

Asking for the Social Security number is like asking for your Korean Citizen number - it only works for citizens of one country. Plus, SS# isn't that hard to come by so far as I know, if you're determined... And I don't imagine it would be good for much besides W2 forms and free money if you're older.

Address is good, but can change.

Email address is touchy, easily faked.

Credit Card number is pretty damn secure, if you don't mind locking out everyone without a credit card.

 

[rokdcasbah]

compared to the alternatives people have been dreaming up (relying on external server for authentication, having personal info built into the software) i'm pretty glad that it's just a copy-protected sd card in the end. seems a lot simpler

 

[aapje89]

so the best allaround solution is probably something like you suggest. games should be centrally bought and tracked, perhaps controlled by craig, so you get an account, login, then you can buy the games and are free to download them. a system somewhat like valves Steam.

I couldn't accept this, because it has an external dependency. Look at all the problems Valve had with the early days of Half-Life 2 because the Steam servers weren't working properly. Granted, the problems have been mainly solved, but it's not a shadow I'd like to be under.

what problems? Everyone pre-loaded HL2 with steam weeks before the release, and the day of the release everyone got the final 10mb or something to complete the game, and started playing. I was there for the numerous release party's on irc and nobody had any problems at all.

it was possible to "try" the game half a year before it was finished though.
But I must say, I like steam

 

[bacteria]

All software can be cracked, even those requiring Steam - and it was. I read up about it (I wasn't interested in playing Half Life 2 myself, nor had any interest in experimenting, but I found the forums at the time interesting reading).

The point is a developer either i) incorporates restrictions into software and people crack it for fun, and use it, or ii) keep software open, and rely on trust. Trust is a good thing, people are less likely to breach trust.

I really believe that software on the GP2x has to be under the £10 mark (max, including any postal charges); at this level, people will buy in droves, there is no point in piracy at this price level. £19.99 + postage, a lot of people will look for a cracked version. That is life. Developers must reason that people have access to playing thousands of games already on their GP2x via emulators and homebrew - so why therefore spend a lot of money on a single game? £5-£8 or thereabouts is justified as "disposable", higher than that, less so (ie a downloaded version, bought as no frills - boxes are fine, but they get put away and forgotten anyway).

At up to £10 (inc postage) I would definately buy Vekter - no question. At £15 (inclusive) I probably would, at £19.99 + postage I am of the mind that I possibly might do, but will probably stay with the free version. I am sure I am not alone on this. The other game, Payload (I think that is its name); not interested in paying money for it - it is not good enough, if it were free I would try it. Just my personal opinions.

 

[FluffyPanda]

Clarification: I was joking about the SSN (I don't even have one, I have an italian codice fiscale and a UK National Insurance number though)

 

[rokdcasbah]

people are less likely to breach trust.

do we live on the same planet?

anyway i see what you're saying about lowering the price, but at least for vektar we're talking about a boxed version, and the production costs for anything in a short run are very high. i doubt craig or anyone else wants to lose money per unit, in addition to the risk of not breaking even due to slow sales, or whatever else could go wrong.

as for me personally, i am willing to pay a little more because i like that the gp2x is unique. but who knows, maybe craig will sell a lot of them and will be able to lower the price later on? or maybe cut his costs in such a way that future games are cheaper?