Commercial Games Data Protection


efegea

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Does the DRM in the GP2X protect the data in the SD the card of commercial games? i.e. one make a commercial game, but it uses pngs as sprites, and oggs as music... are them easily accessible by simply reading the SD card on a pc or are protected and not accessible? Can someone modify this files, or rip them?

I'm worried because I thinking about to make commercial my game. I can't insert all files on the executable as .h headers (bin2h) because it will make the .gpe too big and it will not fit on the ram of the GP2X. So I'm using physfs, a library that reads the files from inside .zip or .7z files. But zip or 7z files are easily readable from a pc...
 
efegea posted on Oct 9 2006 at 10:15 AM said:
Does the DRM in the GP2X protect the data in the SD the card of commercial games? i.e. one make a commercial game, but it uses pngs as sprites, and oggs as music... are them easily accessible by simply reading the SD card on a pc or are protected and not accessible? Can someone modify this files, or rip them?

I'm worried because I thinking about to make commercial my game. I can't insert all files on the executable as .h headers (bin2h) because it will make the .gpe too big and it will not fit on the ram of the GP2X. So I'm using physfs, a library that reads the files from inside .zip or .7z files. But zip or 7z files are easily readable from a pc...
I too would like to know a little of the inner workings of the DRM. Of course you could always find an obscure compression format, and rename the files to something like .1 .2 .gamename. Heck, in linux you could just leave off the extenstion all together, and then people that want to steal your content would have to work for it. :)

Just a Thought

Maybe ED or Craigx would be able to shed more light on the subject.
 
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messing with extension and such is not going to fool anyone, lol..

efegea:
if you really feel a need to encrypt the data from your game you are indeed extremely paranoid. you can never really protect it, its just a fantasy/delusion created by distributors to keep investors happy.
 
Redeeman posted on Oct 9 2006 at 07:32 PM said:
messing with extension and such is not going to fool anyone, lol..

efegea:
if you really feel a need to encrypt the data from your game you are indeed extremely paranoid. you can never really protect it, its just a fantasy/delusion created by distributors to keep investors happy.
strong encryption is definitly not easy to crack...

And no, changing file extension is not gonna fool anyone :p
 
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aapje89 posted on Oct 9 2006 at 07:56 PM said:
strong encryption is definitly not easy to crack...

And no, changing file extension is not gonna fool anyone :p

you are right, if you encrypt something and send it to me im gonna have a hell of a hard time of decrypting it, HOWEVER, since the buyers of the game will need to be able to decrypt it, he also must provide the means to do that.

so... if you encrypt something, and sends it to me along with the key, it will suddenly not be so hard for me anymore...
 
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There is no specific hardware DRM scheme, only custom software ones. Craigix claims to have written his own for Vektar/Payback but won't share it, as he says it will expedite piracy by Spanish hackers.
 
Epicenter posted on Oct 9 2006 at 08:07 PM said:
There is no specific hardware DRM scheme, only custom software ones. Craigix claims to have written his own for Vektar/Payback but won't share it, as he says it will expedite piracy by Spanish hackers.

well... it cant be stopped..

now dont misunderstand me, i do not wish his software pirated, but i do hope that the drm will be broken so fast that he will see the details the second he ships the first copy :) it will send a clear message that drm is not wanted.

besides, all of us that wants to back the gp2x will buy the games (except when it has DRM)
 
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Shikaku posted on Oct 9 2006 at 02:08 PM said:
I've seen it pirated.... IN THIS VERY FORUM (for a short time)

=/
You mean someone had the nerve to post a pirated version here? lol
 
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efegea posted on Oct 9 2006 at 08:15 AM said:
I'm worried because I thinking about to make commercial my game. I can't insert all files on the executable as .h headers (bin2h) because it will make the .gpe too big and it will not fit on the ram of the GP2X. So I'm using physfs, a library that reads the files from inside .zip or .7z files. But zip or 7z files are easily readable from a pc...
Does it support zip encryption? I mean it's not very strong encryption, but it at least makes it non-trivial to steal the assets.
 
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Epicenter posted on Oct 9 2006 at 06:07 PM said:
There is no specific hardware DRM scheme, only custom software ones. Craigix claims to have written his own for Vektar/Payback but won't share it, as he says it will expedite piracy by Spanish hackers.

There are hackers only in Spain :blink: :eek: :huh: :unsure: :( ???
 
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Redeeman posted on Oct 9 2006 at 07:12 PM said:
now dont misunderstand me, i do not wish his software pirated, but i do hope that the drm will be broken so fast that he will see the details the second he ships the first copy :) it will send a clear message that drm is not wanted.

besides, all of us that wants to back the gp2x will buy the games (except when it has DRM)
Sadly, I don't feel safe releasing any commercial software for the GP2X without some kind of copy protection (preferably something not too invasive) because the simple truth is that the community is built upon piracy (of ROM images).
 
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Franxis posted on Oct 9 2006 at 08:30 PM said:
There are hackers only in Spain :blink: :eek: :huh: :unsure: :( ???

he probably meant crackers, though neither hackers or crackers are limited to spain
 
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rabidcow posted on Oct 9 2006 at 08:30 PM said:
efegea posted on Oct 9 2006 at 08:15 AM said:
I'm worried because I thinking about to make commercial my game. I can't insert all files on the executable as .h headers (bin2h) because it will make the .gpe too big and it will not fit on the ram of the GP2X. So I'm using physfs, a library that reads the files from inside .zip or .7z files. But zip or 7z files are easily readable from a pc...
Does it support zip encryption? I mean it's not very strong encryption, but it at least makes it non-trivial to steal the assets.
zip encrytion is very easy to crack, rar offers far better encryption.


@Redeeman: you could just implement that in a packed executable. And a custom packed executable is damn hard to unpack. (out of own experience :p)
 
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Franxis posted on Oct 9 2006 at 12:30 PM said:
Epicenter posted on Oct 9 2006 at 06:07 PM said:
There is no specific hardware DRM scheme, only custom software ones. Craigix claims to have written his own for Vektar/Payback but won't share it, as he says it will expedite piracy by Spanish hackers.

There are hackers only in Spain :blink: :eek: :huh: :unsure: :( ???
To hear Craig tell it. :p Supposedly Spain has a big GP32 piracy scene.
 
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Obviously i'm not going to share the methods of protecting software on the GP2X that would not encourage commercial development, would it?

There are many schemes you can use, and you should change them for each version, look up the SD card ID system.
 
Orkie posted on Oct 9 2006 at 07:47 PM said:
Sadly, I don't feel safe releasing any commercial software for the GP2X without some kind of copy protection (preferably something not too invasive) because the simple truth is that the community is built upon piracy (of ROM images).

I've thought this over a couple of times before and I agree. It's one thing to protect the continued existance of the forum with the banning of ROM links, but no-one seems to accept that this is the truth.
I love the homebrew stuff and I'm sure there are a few more morally minded people who only play ROMs they own carts for (and there's even questionable legality there) but this was sold to me on the amazing emulators! Thousands of other people too...

However, and maybe this seems contradictary, I would never use a pirated GP2x game. I had Vektar on pre-order, based on the quality of the demos and am looking forward to Payback. This particular scene is surely too small relatively to support piracy and should be supported in the system's lifetime. Maybe DRM is the way to force this for now.

:)
 
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Redeeman posted on Oct 9 2006 at 12:32 PM said:
messing with extension and such is not going to fool anyone, lol..

I know that :)
but if it makes him feel better then, there you go... :p
 
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I will try to cut a long story short, to protect your software you must consider the following:
1) Things like sounds, videos and still images can never be totally protected, sounds and videos can be captured using a bob connected to the in-line of a sound card and to a video-in of a TV capture card, this applies to any other asset that the user can use his senses to enjoy.
2) You can make it harder to rip sounds or pictures, instead of storing them in files with extensions that clearify what every file is, you can change the extensions, miss a little with the headers of the pictures, merge all sounds in one big file and increase/decrease playback speed and correct all that using your code (this will of course result in more cpu usage).
3) For me I believe that the greatest asset that should be protected is the code, WHICH CAN BE COMPLETLY PROTECTED, the fear of code exposure depends on:
a. If the code is in low level languages like c or c++, you should never worry, a decompiler for those languages is an animal that doesn't exist.
b. Since we should soon have Java based apps, and maybe one day Flash ones, this is a thing to be worried about, but not for a long time; those higher level languages can be decompiled with publicly available tools, and the main solution to this problem is "obfuscators", if you obfuscate a code, IT CAN NEVER BE DECOMPILED TO THE SAME CODE YOU HAVE WRITTEN, depending on the level of obfuscation, thieves might (in best case scenarios) end with a complicated version of the original code, and this will require them to drop the idea of code re-use since it will be much easier to write it from scratch.
c. Encryption will be good only for hiding special strings, such as the ones used to store serial numbers, when the encryption algorithm is obfuscated too, anyone wishing to try decrypting that string will suffer alot (it might take years to decrypt such a string, imagine what will happen if you added another two or three non used encryption algorithms to the code, obfuscated them all, and now pirates will need much longer times to figure out which algorithm is the one used for your licensing system).

I know that some might disagree and say this can be broken, but to make it clear, the longer it takes them to break your protection, the less interested they will be in violating your intelluctual property, and if you changed the licensing schema regulary with every major release/update, it will be like hell to them.

For those who consider commercial software to be a bad thing to GP2X, remember that those guys who release such game like Vektar or Payback might have hired people to help them in some stages, and those titles we are talking about are what might push others to get a GP2X, and in the end if you believe that you deserve everything for free, let me tell you that you are wrong, most of the famous open source applications that you use are supported by money paid from big enterprises' pockets, so technically they are not free, they were paid for by others.
 
sehs33 posted on Oct 9 2006 at 07:22 PM said:
3) For me I believe that the greatest asset that should be protected is the code, WHICH CAN BE COMPLETLY PROTECTED, the fear of code exposure depends on:
a. If the code is in low level languages like c or c++, you should never worry, a decompiler for those languages is an animal that doesn't exist.

its called ida pro and it will carve up your binary like a hot knife in butter.

b. Since we should soon have Java based apps, and maybe one day Flash ones, this is a thing to be worried about, but not for a long time; those higher level languages can be decompiled with publicly available tools, and the main solution to this problem is "obfuscators", if you obfuscate a code, IT CAN NEVER BE DECOMPILED TO THE SAME CODE YOU HAVE WRITTEN, depending on the level of obfuscation, thieves might (in best case scenarios) end with a complicated version of the original code, and this will require them to drop the idea of code re-use since it will be much easier to write it from scratch.

i wouldnt worry too much about java + flash apps on the gp2x...

c. Encryption will be good only for hiding special strings, such as the ones used to store serial numbers, when the encryption algorithm is obfuscated too, anyone wishing to try decrypting that string will suffer alot (it might take years to decrypt such a string, imagine what will happen if you added another two or three non used encryption algorithms to the code, obfuscated them all, and now pirates will need much longer times to figure out which algorithm is the one used for your licensing system).

its called system flow, and unused code is unused code. all it boils down to is a single instruction that says 'equal to' or 'not equal to'. you might have 100 encryption ruotines and stuff, but somewhere in your code you will have a isregistered() == 0 or something, and patching that one little instruction is all that is needed.


I know that some might disagree and say this can be broken, but to make it clear, the longer it takes them to break your protection, the less interested they will be in violating your intelluctual property, and if you changed the licensing schema regulary with every major release/update, it will be like hell to them.

and in the process, breaking all previous registration keys... so each release requires a new key for everyone. (good/bad depending how you look at it).

basically, it all boils down to a dream world. I'm not against commercial software and reasonable efforts to stop piracy. Ive paid for loads of palm software. Ill buy vektar as soon as its available as a download if its reasonably priced. same too with payback.

ive cracked and trained software from c64 to amiga to pc. the only stuff i never broke was a cad program that had a hardware dongle. (mind you this is going back to mid 80s+ very early 90's)..

there are people who will pirate your stuff and tell you its too expensive even if it only costs $1.
a lot of software has an unreasonable price. one reason i loved palm stuff so much is loads of great apps only cost like $5 to $10.

to efega, if your worried about releasing commercial software on gp2x because you use png files and ogg files and someone can see them.. shesh. thats the least of your problems.

you have to decide, if you want to stop casual people going 'oh an ogg! i want to play it in my mp3 player'.. or do you want to inconvenience people and have some really complex scheme that will take you more time than its worth to implement?

weigh it up against how many copies you think you might sell / an hourly developer rate. will you sell more than what it costs to implement?
 
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