Commercial Games Data Protection

[Redeeman]

its simply a waste of time to even begin with DRM, why should legitimate customers suffer when it does NOTHING to stop those who pirate anyway?

why should legitimate customers PAY MORE for the efforts put into drm and all sorts of other crap, when it doesent actually do anything? why must legitimate customers be thought thieves? after all, thats the only way boxed-only games can be leaked (unless ofcourse data is stolen from you.)

well.. choose whatever you want, but i will not be buying those games, where i with a high garantuee would otherwise, just to support the gp2x.

 

[sehs33]

its called ida pro and it will carve up your binary like a hot knife in butter.

Ida is a disassembler, not a decompiler, if you are able to trace several jmp statements don't be so happy, you didn't get the developers' code back, you only found where he stored the activation code, now if you tried changing that to something that will make the result of the comparison always true, that doesn't mean it will work straight away, developers who are worried about their licensing systems usually use other supportive methods like including hard coded hash values for their executables so you will have to pay extra effort to bypass any nice "Please enter name and S.N." window. BTW I never said that applications written in C/C++ can't be cracked, what I was talking about is getting the source code back out of their executables.

i wouldnt worry too much about java + flash apps on the gp2x...

Developers working on those environments do worry, if you are not one of them that doesn't mean that there's no problem, published Java and Flash files can be decompiled by right clicking your mouse on their icons and choosing decompile, IT IS THAT EASY, AND IT IS A PROBLEM, developers who thought of porting to GP2X are so afraid, specially with people who say you shouldn't secure any of the content you worked on for a very long time, and that you should trust unknown customers who spend most of their time playing ROMs that they don't own (come on admit it, how many of you have 5 arcade machines in your basements? one? two? and what are those 100+ ROMs doing on your SD card then? )

its called system flow, and unused code is unused code. all it boils down to is a single instruction that says 'equal to' or 'not equal to'. you might have 100 encryption ruotines and stuff, but somewhere in your code you will have a isregistered() == 0 or something, and patching that one little instruction is all that is needed.

Re-read my first notice regarding Ida, add to it that you shouldn't be stupid enough to name this variable IsRegistered, having thousands of lines of codes in several DLLs who will generate X times greater assembly, and now you will have to work harder to crack this, now you should be stubborn enough to insist on not paying software publishers their rights, and again, it is crackable, but it doesn't generate your source code back.

and in the process, breaking all previous registration keys... so each release requires a new key for everyone. (good/bad depending how you look at it).

Of course each major release will require a new key, in fact most major releases are not freely-upgradeable-to, when you buy v1.3 you are not entitled to get v2.0, unless the publisher GENEROUSLY (I know that this word will piss off some guys so am leaving as it is ) offered that.

basically, it all boils down to a dream world. I'm not against commercial software and reasonable efforts to stop piracy. Ive paid for loads of palm software. Ill buy vektar as soon as its available as a download if its reasonably priced. same too with payback.

ive cracked and trained software from c64 to amiga to pc. the only stuff i never broke was a cad program that had a hardware dongle. (mind you this is going back to mid 80s+ very early 90's)..

No you are against commercial software, disassembling even the software you paid for, you are violating most of the EULAs you usually skip reading, lucky you, you are not one of my clients, or you would have been in serious trouble

there are people who will pirate your stuff and tell you its too expensive even if it only costs $1.
a lot of software has an unreasonable price. one reason i loved palm stuff so much is loads of great apps only cost like $5 to $10.

So since there is an increase in software piracy threats you suggest that software publishers should decrease the budget on security? :blink:
:rolleyes:
Regarding the prices, those titles you bought were individual targeted, if you check customized enterprise level solutions you will see how this figure will be of 5 digits and more, those solutions are what make the bigger amount of cash spent on software, and you won't find them in an online shop with a paypal button.
Software prices are decided upon many factors, of them the effort and direct costs, how unique the solution is, in what position of the life cycle this software is, HOW MANY PROFIT PUBLISHERS AIM FOR and other factors, this is no charity, this is a source for profit, if you think of a solution to be expensive, and that it will cost you more than it would get you, never use it, it is a bad deal.

Sorry for the long post folks

 

[Redeeman]

lol.. you say its a problem with java and such, what is exactly the problem? it WILL get cracked no matter what? are you afraid of people reading your source? its not like any company could ever use it, they'd be in trouble if they did, so it leaves only those who would disassemble/decompile, are you afraid they may find stupid code?

to those thinking about DRM'ing their crap:
hollywood, music industry, microsoft, apple have ALL tried doing it, and it has failed in all their attempts, it has always been cracked.

now imagine their ressources, and they couldnt succeed, what makes people doing stuff for the gp2x think that they can? if they seriously believe drm will protect their stuff they must have been smoking some very very strong stuff. be afraid or not, it doesent make a damn difference.

 

[icurafu]

Each device has a unique ID that cannot be changed, so it’s fairly Information Security 101.

Just stick to the typical algorithms, like AES-128 or above, 3DES and SHA-1 for hashing.

To bypass the check, a cracker will typically observe what values are written to memory when an invalid device is used (for the key entered), they will be able to read ASM of the binary to see what is compared.

Then they will modify the binary so that it manual changes the value just before the compare.

So overall, a cracker will always be able to bypass your protection unless you have access to the DRM's hidden keys. Otherwise, you can only protect through obscuration.

 

[sehs33]

lol.. you say its a problem with java and such, what is exactly the problem? it WILL get cracked no matter what? are you afraid of people reading your source? its not like any company could ever use it, they'd be in trouble if they did, so it leaves only those who would disassemble/decompile, are you afraid they may find stupid code?

Don't you dare calling my code stupid
Why everyone is insisting on making this topic licensing centred? the guy who started it was talking about assets reuse, and I am still talking about assets reuse.
BTW, it is likely they WILL use your code, in fact it is almost impossible to prove that it is not you who stole their codes if this stupidly went to court. Why would they use it? simply because it will save them all the time you spent to write it, that if they knew how to write it.
I don't know if everyone here is aware, but software companies usually celebrate (but not loudly) having their first product cracked, it means to them that their software was highly demanded, so it was cracked, it gives them kinda of free marketing, and they try finding silently who did it so they might get a fortune of sueing them one day

 

[bacteria]

I buy software for PC, install it, and use a no-dvd crack so I don't have to faff about with having to find the original (genuine) disk each time I want to play, wait for ages for the dvd drive to whirr up, and have to keep the disks to hand all the time. I don't mind buying original quality games, but I do resent DRM or other protections, because it causes inconveniences and by its very nature is infurring that its customers are dishonest. I pay for quality games, but am happy to circumvent protections on games I have bought and therefore feel justified doing so. By this nature, I resent buying something which I have to put up with its DRM/protections. Downloadable commercial software by its nature should be dirt cheap, as there are no costs in manufacture or distribution, only profit and "development"; some like to buy boxes, others don't.

Frankly, on the GP2x scene, everything should be freeware. Anyone charging for software is more interested in profit and not community based in their spirit, and should be considered as such.

Any commercial games should by their nature be original game concepts, not rip-offs of games that have gone before; Vektar is original enough, Payback is not; any more than the hundreds of Tetris rip-offs.

 

[jokeman]

I don't mind buying original quality games, but I do resent DRM or other protections, because it causes inconveniences and by its very nature is infurring that its customers are dishonest.

you are right... DRM mostly causes inconveniences of the customers buying the software... your no-dvd crack is a good example
another:
windows vista 32bit version will not provide playing blue ray disks or HD DVDs!
the reason?
"This is a decision that the Media Player folks made because there are just too many ways right now for unsigned kernel mode code [to compromise content protection]. The media companies asked us to do this and said they don’t want any of their high definition content to play in x32 at all, because of all of the unsigned malware that runs in kernel mode can get around content protection, so we had to do this." (source Microsoft cuts ANOTHER feature: full HD playback in 32bit Vista goes)

the funny thing is... if you rip the movie and get rid of the HD encryption, (or much simpler, download the movie) you can watch it

and now decide:
- buy a HD DVD, and don't watch, because is not supported, or rip it, compress it, burn it onto a new DVD,... and watch it
- or simply download and watch
who has the inconvenience? the customer, or the pirate?
thank you media companies

Frankly, on the GP2x scene, everything should be freeware. Anyone charging for software is more interested in profit and not community based in their spirit, and should be considered as such.

well... i think, commercial games for the gp2x are a good thing

Downloadable commercial software by its nature should be dirt cheap, as there are no costs in manufacture or distribution, only profit and "development"; some like to buy boxes, others don't.

the developement costs of a game are usually much higher than the manufacture or distribution costs
but you are right, that they should be cheaper than the boxed versions but not "dirt cheap"

 

[bacteria]

"Dirt cheap" will greatly reduce piracy. Charge, oh I don't know, £19.99 (or more) and delivery for a game (purely a figure off the top of my head, you understand) and many would look for a pirated version (someone touched on this on the forum). Offer it as a download for say £5-£8, especially if there is no DRM, then there is no reason not to pay this. Take off the cost of the SD card (c.£10 inc VAT for a cheap card), packaging and handling, £19.99 becomes more like £8 - charge this and all profits and development costs are fully recovered, and the customer gets a good deal.

@Jokeman - you are right, M$oft is actually encouraging people to use pirated and cracked OS versions of their software, which is crazy. It is not a case of buying legitimate vs getting a hooky copy, it is a case of UNLESS you get a hooky copy you can't do what you want, eg play HD disks (I presume someone will circumvent this, they always seem to). This is illogical - why give people a REASON to not buy a legitimate version? Nuts. As per usual, customers lose out, and resent, DRM. Want to piss off your customers and encourage piracy, ok then, use DRM. Personally, I intend to stay with XP and not bother with Vista for as long as I can; especially in light of this HD restriction. I prefer to buy legitimate software, so Vista isn't for me, given the choice.

 

[Redeeman]

lol.. you say its a problem with java and such, what is exactly the problem? it WILL get cracked no matter what? are you afraid of people reading your source? its not like any company could ever use it, they'd be in trouble if they did, so it leaves only those who would disassemble/decompile, are you afraid they may find stupid code?

Don't you dare calling my code stupid
Why everyone is insisting on making this topic licensing centred? the guy who started it was talking about assets reuse, and I am still talking about assets reuse.
BTW, it is likely they WILL use your code, in fact it is almost impossible to prove that it is not you who stole their codes if this stupidly went to court. Why would they use it? simply because it will save them all the time you spent to write it, that if they knew how to write it.
I don't know if everyone here is aware, but software companies usually celebrate (but not loudly) having their first product cracked, it means to them that their software was highly demanded, so it was cracked, it gives them kinda of free marketing, and they try finding silently who did it so they might get a fortune of sueing them one day

then opensource your stuff, under something like the GPL, if the other company wish to use your code, they must obey the GPL(though we've seen that not many users actually care about gpl enforcement), and it certainly gives YOU all the backing you need should you discover they dont.

 

[sehs33]

@Redeeman: Open source software is not the best way to profit from software commercially, if it was so, you would have found both Windows and Mac OS opened, I am not saying that you can't generate revenue in open source market, but it wont be as profitable as normal software.

 

[Aninhumer]

If someone pirates a commercial game for the gp2x, most members of the community will reject them.
However those people who want to pirate the games, will pirate them. Countless efforts have shown that stopping this is impossible.

Surely, whether DRM is included or not, the people who would reject pirates will buy it, and the pirates will pirate it. The only difference is that legal owners get annoyed by DRM.

 

[Shikaku]

We can actually play HD/BD discs already, there's nothing new about the containers/formats that make it special. All it takes is the correct updates to codecs.

 

[PokeParadox]

If someone pirates a commercial game for the gp2x, most members of the community will reject them.
However those people who want to pirate the games, will pirate them. Countless efforts have shown that stopping this is impossible.

Surely, whether DRM is included or not, the people who would reject pirates will buy it, and the pirates will pirate it. The only difference is that legal owners get annoyed by DRM.

Yep, that's exactly it. The legit buyer are the ones that suffer due to DRM. DRM is flawed.

 

[BradN]

My stance on DRM for things like this, is that if I can't copy it to another SD card, I will not buy it. End of story.

I don't care if there's a serial number deal, or even a serial number + name registration combo, or obfuscated data storage techniques. I want to be able to put it on the same SD card with all my other stuff and not have to worry about carrying more than one around and losing it.

 

[Winterkid]

If I spend my money on software, and my friends want a copy of it, I say SURE, go ahead.... and ORDER it! I spend money on something it's mine, all mine, and I ain't gonna lose the rights to own it just cause they're greedy and stupid.

I figure if you want something you don't have, ask for it, buy it or do without. "Life isn't a pony ride, boy."

 

[fawny]

Frankly, on the GP2x scene, everything should be freeware. Anyone charging for software is more interested in profit and not community based in their spirit, and should be considered as such.

You are happy with small projects knocked together in people's spare time and are prepared to wait years for large projects developed under the same constraints ?

Grown ups have to pay the rent and buy the food - to do that they have to earn money.

Developing and selling games is a legitimate way for someone to support themselves.

At the end of the day, if the user base gets large enough there will be commercial games developed for it by companies out to make a profit. Your attitude just kills the possibilty of community spirited members making games and supporting themselves and leaves the future of gaming in the hands of corporations.