Developer Fund

[Null]

and concentrate on "How will we do this?"

Very slowly and with lots of arguing.

 

[saboteur]

You could do it this way :

1. All subscribers to the fund are able to propose projects along with the pandora team.

2. Subscribers are told how much is in the pot for this round of funding.

3. Subscribers vote on which projects / devs to support.

4. Money is disseminated as per voting.

cheers

 

[yosh64]

hey

Anyhows I think if anyone made something expecting to get $$$ then I think they are looking for trouble. To me it would just be an incentive to spend some extra time, but I certainly wouldn't expect anything.

Obviously everyone has different opinions on who deserves what, so I think you will need several different criterias for distributing awards.

I certainly hope people don't think of this as a way to get developers to develop what they want, rather I see this as a great incentive for developers to spend more time and enhance the quality of their software.

I was thinking maybe you can have quaterly events. I dunno if this would be the best approach, but just something I thought of.

So you could have awards of different criterias (maybe you could post information about each criteria).

Like the most popular software award.
The most addictive software award.
The most original game award.
The openpandora award (the best opensource prog of the year).
and whatever else.

Hmm, I guess the community could nominate software for each category? and have a select few or whatever decide the 1st/2nd/3rd or whatever, but I dunno.

Anyhows just a thought.

How about what I said back on page 8 (just quoted above) of this thread?

So to alike sm1988 mentioned a couple of posts later on page 8 .

We should have developer day too I would like to know a little bit about the guys behind all the apps and ports.

Well just an idea, but I've heard no feedback about it yet :\, so I thinks, hehe.

cyas

 

[kneehighspy]

i'm in for that, i'll support the devs, without them, where would we be? expect my donation as soon as i can get my preorder in.

 

[TaG]

I think it's time to get this thread back on track. Forget about "Should we do this" (the overwhelming majority are on board with the idea, so that question is already answered) and concentrate on "How will we do this?"

And now it is announced on the blog that really does suggest the topic should be "How?" not "If?"

 

[DisgruntleElf]

Anyway, I looked back and craigix never really asked for people's opinions about this, and as it seems few other people care about views that are different than theirs, I'll bow out of this thread and leave it up to the rest of you.

Well its confirmed on the blog that craigix had every intention of creating the Developers Fund regardless of any feedback here. The Developers Fund sole purpose is to generate sales for Pandora. Noone is gonna by into a pricey game system with no development backing. Whether the consumer will contribute into the fund for prelease betas is anyone's guess. This whole we're "rewarding the developers" is a load of .....
The question is, is it the responsibility of the manufacturer or the consumer to entice developers to Pandora?

 

[craigix]

Anyway, I looked back and craigix never really asked for people's opinions about this, and as it seems few other people care about views that are different than theirs, I'll bow out of this thread and leave it up to the rest of you.

Well its confirmed on the blog that craigix had every intention of creating the Developers Fund regardless of any feedback here. The Developers Fund sole purpose is to generate sales for Pandora. Noone is gonna by into a pricey game system with no development backing. Whether the consumer will contribute into the fund for prelease betas is anyone's guess. This whole we're "rewarding the developers" is a load of .....
The question is, is it the responsibility of the manufacturer or the consumer to entice developers to Pandora?


Balls.

If it isn't to reward developers then what is it for? Seeing as the Pandora team are all software developers too we know exactly what it is like to work for a long time on software to only see tiny rewards, a few replys on a forum thread and then nothing. That often leads directly to unique software being abandoned. That is not what we want to happen on the Pandora.

Sure, you might not see the point in an 8/12/16bit to 32bit graphics converter which supports gp32/gp2x and pandora formats & resolutions, but we would, and we would reward the person who made the tools from the dev fund.

 

[waffles]

I think its benifitual to everyone, personally.
if money goes in, the developer makes better software.
if there is better software, more people buy the thing.
if there are more people buying it, more people donate, and the cycle starts again. Everyone involved would benefit, be it the consumer, (through added software and people using it) the seller, (through the inherint trait that selling things makes money, and to expand the project)
and the person looking at buying it, because as more people use/develop for the pandora, accesories will be made, programs will be coded, and wallets will be emptied.

 

[DisgruntleElf]

Balls.

If it isn't to reward developers then what is it for? Seeing as the Pandora team are all software developers too we know exactly what it is like to work for a long time on software to only see tiny rewards, a few replys on a forum thread and then nothing. That often leads directly to unique software being abandoned. That is not what we want to happen on the Pandora.

Sure, you might not see the point in an 8/12/16bit to 32bit graphics converter which supports gp32/gp2x and pandora formats & resolutions, but we would, and we would reward the person who made the tools from the dev fund.

Are you honestly going to say that the "Development Fund" won't benefit the sales of Pandora? And may ask where was this "Development Fund" when you were selling the GP32 or GP2X? The Development Fund was set up to entice developers to Pandora for more sales. A reward is given after a job like finding a lost dog.
The Development Fund true purpose is to lure programmers that normally would not participate in such devices like your Pandora. And don't get me wrong it is a good financial move on your behalf but I just question whether or not if it is the responsiblity of the consumer to buy into it for betas which will eventually be released anyways. Don't try to deceive consumers with the "we're rewarding the developer".

 

[craigix]

Balls.

If it isn't to reward developers then what is it for? Seeing as the Pandora team are all software developers too we know exactly what it is like to work for a long time on software to only see tiny rewards, a few replys on a forum thread and then nothing. That often leads directly to unique software being abandoned. That is not what we want to happen on the Pandora.

Sure, you might not see the point in an 8/12/16bit to 32bit graphics converter which supports gp32/gp2x and pandora formats & resolutions, but we would, and we would reward the person who made the tools from the dev fund.

Are you honestly going to say that the "Development Fund" won't benefit the sales of Pandora? And may ask where was this "Development Fund" when you were selling the GP32 or GP2X? The Development Fund was set up to entice developers to Pandora for more sales. A reward is given after a job like finding a lost dog.
The Development Fund true purpose is to lure programmers that normally would not participate in such devices like your Pandora. And don't get me wrong it is a good financial move on your behalf but I just question whether or not if it is the responsiblity of the consumer to buy into it for betas which will eventually be released anyways. Don't try to deceive consumers with the "we're rewarding the developer".


You're trying to find some corporate conspiracy where there isn't one.

The GP2X and GP32 fund would have been the responsibility of GP/H we had no control at all over their system. As you may or may not know I, Evildragon, Fatih, David and the other distrbutors gave thousands of dollars in systems and donations to the devs for those systems, but it was never possible to make one fund because we didn't have control.

And they won't be buying it for betas, it was a voluntary suggestion made clear through out this thread. I know several devs would like it to work that way, and for some it already does. But the people who do chose to donate to the fund should get some kind of recognition, even if it is just an icon on this forum.

You don't have to donate, if you don't like the idea don't, but whether you like it or not devs will be getting donations from the fund for their work. Which they do for free. For you.

 

[Chip]

Are you honestly going to say that the "Development Fund" won't benefit the sales of Pandora? And may ask where was this "Development Fund" when you were selling the GP32 or GP2X? The Development Fund was set up to entice developers to Pandora for more sales. A reward is given after a job like finding a lost dog.
The Development Fund true purpose is to lure programmers that normally would not participate in such devices like your Pandora.

What a spectacularly pessimistic and inaccurate viewpoint. Not one single unit will or won't be sold because of this fund. I highly doubt one single developer will or won't make software for the Pandora because of it either. We're talking about maybe a couple hundred dollars compensation for a particularly good piece of software. That's not the sort of money that makes someone spend dozens (or even hundreds) of hours working on a software project.

Software developers for the GP32 and GP2X did what they did because they enjoyed doing it. Pandora developers will be doing it for the same reason. This fund just makes it easier for people to contribute a little bit to a lot of people as a "thank you" for their effort. You donate once and that money gets split up and sent to a lot of developers working on lots of projects.

And don't get me wrong it is a good financial move on your behalf but I just question whether or not if it is the responsiblity of the consumer to buy into it for betas which will eventually be released anyways. Don't try to deceive consumers with the "we're rewarding the developer".

It's not anybody's "responsibility". It's entirely optional for both programmers and users. Nobody has to donate anything or give out early beta editions. To imply that this program is in any way deceptive is absurd and more than a little insulting.

 

[DisgruntleElf]

Are you honestly going to say that the "Development Fund" won't benefit the sales of Pandora? And may ask where was this "Development Fund" when you were selling the GP32 or GP2X? The Development Fund was set up to entice developers to Pandora for more sales. A reward is given after a job like finding a lost dog.
The Development Fund true purpose is to lure programmers that normally would not participate in such devices like your Pandora.

What a spectacularly pessimistic and inaccurate viewpoint. Not one single unit will or won't be sold because of this fund. I highly doubt one single developer will or won't make software for the Pandora because of it either. We're talking about maybe a couple hundred dollars compensation for a particularly good piece of software. That's not the sort of money that makes someone spend dozens (or even hundreds) of hours working on a software project.

Software developers for the GP32 and GP2X did what they did because they enjoyed doing it. Pandora developers will be doing it for the same reason. This fund just makes it easier for people to contribute a little bit to a lot of people as a "thank you" for their effort. You donate once and that money gets split up and sent to a lot of developers working on lots of projects.

And don't get me wrong it is a good financial move on your behalf but I just question whether or not if it is the responsiblity of the consumer to buy into it for betas which will eventually be released anyways. Don't try to deceive consumers with the "we're rewarding the developer".

It's not anybody's "responsibility". It's entirely optional for both programmers and users. Nobody has to donate anything or give out early beta editions. To imply that this program is in any way deceptive is absurd and more than a little insulting.


I'm going to answer to both you and craigix here since its more or less the same argument .
@craigix First off why would it be the responsiblity of GPH to set a Development Fund? Your selling their product, you could have done it without them or perhaps its just not as financially benefical as if you owned the product as GPH would have reaped more of the rewards.

@Chip Would you buy a high state of the art TV without stations to show its true potential? I wouldn't. If your really gonna say that the Development Fund isn't going to bring in sales your kidding yourself. Notice how craigix eluded that question. More development, more applications, more games makes more inviting sales. Pandora is has a high price tag and it needs some knockout software to sell it outside the must haves buyers. The Development Fund will bring in more sales and as I said before its a great financial move.

How is this pessimistic? IT WILL BRING IN MORE SALES! That's good. And yes nobody has to donate to it, in fact I and many others perfer to donate to the developers of our choice. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Development Fund and anyone who chooses to do so can but it will, IT WILL, bring in more sales.
It can be a WIN/WIN for craigix the manufacturer and the consumer. I'm just asking the question should it be the responsiblity of the Pandora team to bring in the developers with this fund or the consumer?

 

[Tobriand]

Well, as ever, I can see where those with negative sentiments are coming from, even if I don't quite agree. In particular, it resides in the intuition as to the *value* of beta access.

If the value of such access approaches £10, then it's arguably not a gift, but a sale (because the intuition is that if you've paid £10 and got ~£10 worth of stuff from it, then surely you've bought something). If, on the other hand, the value of such access is in fact ~£2, then it's much more clearly a "thanks for donating"; you've knowingly given out more value than you expect to get in return, and therefore can be said to have donated. Different people's intuitions run in different ways on these issues, I think.

One aim to get the dissenters to be more agreeable, therefore, might be to reduce the perceived value of the beta-access. One way to do this is my earlier suggestion of making it restricted for a small-ish period of time.

Another way would be to implement nag screens en route to downloading from the beta area in Rapidshare style - wait a minute or two before the download will start, or have limited downloads in a period of time.

An elaboration on this that would really piss off non-donators might be to have the timer set randomly to between 30secs and 2mins, but, once it reaches 0, a second timer starts giving you only 15secs to click download - pretty much forcing you to stay in the same window while you wait.

I'm not sure, I must say, whether pissing off non-donators is really the angle we want Craig to take on this, but I do firmly believe that (some) agro is worth less than software, and thus such a system might get closer to reconciling the value issue. Maybe.

 

[parag0n]

Since it is a scheme that will directly benefit both users (a better quality and more varied software library) and craig&co (increased sales due to <<), I'd say ts fair to say that both groups should donate towards this fund if they feel it is worthwhile.

 

[Chip]

Would you buy a high state of the art TV without stations to show its true potential? I wouldn't. If your really gonna say that the Development Fund isn't going to bring in sales your kidding yourself. Notice how craigix eluded that question. More development, more applications, more games makes more inviting sales. Pandora is has a high price tag and it needs some knockout software to sell it outside the must haves buyers. The Development Fund will bring in more sales and as I said before its a great financial move.

You couldn't be any more wrong if you claimed the sky was green. These are small sums of money we're talking about here. There will be no "killer app" produced for the Pandora that wouldn't have been made if there was no fund. Big name (or even small name) studios aren't going to make commercial-quality games for an unknown handheld system just for the chance of getting a couple hundred dollar donation. Your assumption that this program will drive development is likely to a small extent. Your assumption that the kinds of programs developed solely because of donations would actually drive sales is absurd. Nobody is going to get rich off of these donations. Nobody is going to be able to quit their day job and write software for the Pandora. Most importantly, nobody is going to buy a Pandora just because of a couple small apps and ports that might not have been made if it weren't for the developer fund.

How is this pessimistic? IT WILL BRING IN MORE SALES! That's good. And yes nobody has to donate to it, in fact I and many others perfer to donate to the developers of our choice. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Development Fund and anyone who chooses to do so can but it will, IT WILL, bring in more sales.
It can be a WIN/WIN for craigix the manufacturer and the consumer. I'm just asking the question should it be the responsiblity of the Pandora team to bring in the developers with this fund or the consumer?

Implying that the developer fund has nothing to do with developers and is just a scam to drum up sales is very pessimistic. It's also wrong, as I detailed above.

Nobody is claiming it's Craig's "responsibility" to set up this fund. He's doing it because it's the smart thing to do and it helps everybody involved. It has nothing to do with moral obligation and everything to do with giving back to those who make the platform what it is.

 

[CronoTriggerfan]

To everyone still doubting, I'd check out the latest blog post. Craig has stated the dev team is throwing in several thousand bucks themselves to get this kicked off right. They're definitely putting their money where their mouth is on this one, and given that they're giving far more than any of you will, you can probably trust them to allocate it fairly.

 

[TaG]

To everyone still doubting, I'd check out the latest blog post. Craig has stated the dev team is throwing in several thousand bucks themselves to get this kicked off right. They're definitely putting their money where their mouth is on this one, and given that they're giving far more than any of you will, you can probably trust them to allocate it fairly.

Yup.
And if you don't TRUST the developers, why would you slap down £200 for their device?

 

[DisgruntleElf]

Would you buy a high state of the art TV without stations to show its true potential? I wouldn't. If your really gonna say that the Development Fund isn't going to bring in sales your kidding yourself. Notice how craigix eluded that question. More development, more applications, more games makes more inviting sales. Pandora is has a high price tag and it needs some knockout software to sell it outside the must haves buyers. The Development Fund will bring in more sales and as I said before its a great financial move.

You couldn't be any more wrong if you claimed the sky was green. These are small sums of money we're talking about here. There will be no "killer app" produced for the Pandora that wouldn't have been made if there was no fund. Big name (or even small name) studios aren't going to make commercial-quality games for an unknown handheld system just for the chance of getting a couple hundred dollar donation. Your assumption that this program will drive development is likely to a small extent. Your assumption that the kinds of programs developed solely because of donations would actually drive sales is absurd. Nobody is going to get rich off of these donations. Nobody is going to be able to quit their day job and write software for the Pandora. Most importantly, nobody is going to buy a Pandora just because of a couple small apps and ports that might not have been made if it weren't for the developer fund.

How is this pessimistic? IT WILL BRING IN MORE SALES! That's good. And yes nobody has to donate to it, in fact I and many others perfer to donate to the developers of our choice. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Development Fund and anyone who chooses to do so can but it will, IT WILL, bring in more sales.
It can be a WIN/WIN for craigix the manufacturer and the consumer. I'm just asking the question should it be the responsiblity of the Pandora team to bring in the developers with this fund or the consumer?

Implying that the developer fund has nothing to do with developers and is just a scam to drum up sales is very pessimistic. It's also wrong, as I detailed above.

Nobody is claiming it's Craig's "responsibility" to set up this fund. He's doing it because it's the smart thing to do and it helps everybody involved. It has nothing to do with moral obligation and everything to do with giving back to those who make the platform what it is.



Why do you find it so hard to believe that the Development Fund can't benefit Pandora sales as well as developers? In the same way, craigix is developing Pandora to give the community an excellent gaming device as well as make a profit. Two positive things at the same time. WIN/WIN. get it?
The Development Fund is good move for the community and its a good financial move for Pandora sales.
It can be both. Why your taking offence to this I dunno.

@CronoTriggerfan: Its not a trust issue regarding whether or not it will go to developers. I'm certain that it will. I just don't like the way craigix is trying to sell the Development Fund as a favor to the community. He will benefit from it also. It's just to me a little deceiving. And sure he's going to money into something that could very well benefit him in the long run. Who wouldn't?

 

[gaterooze]

Remember, craigix used to run regular competitions for the GP32 & GP2X where he gave away prizes to spur development. He has a history of supporting the community. No one would claim that these things don't have a flow-on effect for more Pandora sales, but as you said, that's a good thing.

If craigix's only goal was more sales, he could just take the few grand he's putting into the fund and pay some devs to make whatever he needed to entice sales (he did do some of this on the GP2X, remember him offering money for a certain 3D engine?). Doing things this way instead generates more community spirit, which is what will really make the Pandora shine.

The way I see the beta area is also as an advantage to the devs who wish to use it, as they will have access to willing beta testers and a structure to receive feedback prior to public release. As to "buying" acccess, sure, some will see it that way--but it's more of a "gatekeeper" thing than a reward.

 

[gruso]

Following are my thoughts on how feedback & funding could work. I have no experience in this area, and chances are a lot of this has been thought out already. Anyway, here comes a long post.


=== PUBLIC VOTING ===

I think a "standard form" rating/feedback system would cover the community aspect of evaluation for each app. You would be prompted to give feedback just like you are on ebay. (Please note that I'm NOT suggesting a publically displayed feedback rating like ebay, just the reminder system and submission process).

Apps downloaded from the archive will be logged in your profile, awaiting feeback. Next time you log in, you will be reminded (by way of icons adjacent to each entry) that you need to leave feedback. Click through, and you'll get something like this:

CODE

You're leaving feedback for "Breadmaker II: The Wheatening".

Fun/useful............. (min) [] [] [] [] [] (max)
Stable................. (min) [] [] [] [] [] (max)
Polished............... (min) [] [] [] [] [] (max)
Documentation/Support.. (min) [] [] [] [] [] (max)

Will you keep it installed? Y[] N[]

Any comments? [Comments will not be displayed publically. 120 char max.]

[_____________________________________________________________]



This way, the fund administrators get two lots of data for each app:

- Raw download numbers, indicating interest/hype in the program
- Post-install feedback, giving a real indication of how it performs

Any comments posted would be viewable only by the dev & site admins. This along with the character limit will discourage people from using the feedback system for help requests or silly debate.


=== THE FINAL DECISION ===

With all this data on hand, the fund admins can then allocate rewards at their discretion. They will take into account the big picture, ie how an app has contributed to the system/community as a whole.

Obviously an app will have to be in the wild for a certain period before it can be fairly evaluated. A quarterly evaluation & distribution of rewards would be logical, although the public feedback system would be open full time. Each quarter, a report would be posted online detailing the latest round of rewards.


=== FAIRNESS OF REWARDS ===

Separation of apps into categories will prevent something like a wifi driver being trumped by a game through sheer volume of votes. Likewise, by separating categories further into original apps / ports etc, something like SqDef3D won't be trumped by say, Stargus.

This categorisation will be applied when the dev submits a file, so it doesn't need to be factored into the public side of the feedback process. Naturally, a dev submitting a port/mod will have to credit any original authors to be eligible for a reward.


=== MY FAVOURITE DEV DESERVES MORE! ===

Say it with Paypal.


=== MIND NOW WANDERING, LOOSE IDEAS FOLLOW ===

- If the admin team sees an app getting little attention when it really should be on every Pandora (I'm thinking along the lines of systems utilities/drivers), it could be listed in an "Essential Apps" or "Crucial Updates" section of the site.

- Each app submitted should use a standard Readme template (as far as possible) in order to be eligible. This will help level the playing field in terms of documentation quality (which may affect feedback ratings). At the very least, a standard header/footer should be used, detailing the funding system and encouraging users to participate in the feedback process.

- Each dev should have a very basic profile page on the file archive, listing their contributions.


=== END OF LONG POST ===


Thoughts? (PLEASE don't quote my entire post, there are enough walls of text on the page :lol