Pandora Developer Fund

[Monk]

Primarily #1 and #7.

Since I personally perceive both of those as being around attracting people to create content in an attempt to boost popularity (and therefore sales) of the Pandora rather than rewarding devs who have actually put in the hard work to produce something for the community... I'm starting to think that donating was a bad idea (yes, I'm so pro-Pandora that I donated to the dev fund but am increasingly regretting my commitments).

If Craig et al can contribute thousands of dollars to GP32 competitions I don't quite see why I should be funding competitions for OpenPandora's own handheld - or buying Pandoras for developers who MIGHT produce something good from it (however likely or unlikely - once it's provided it's a bit "horse/door/bolted").

The idea of sending out dev money to people who produced the Pandora equivalent of the great stuff you find in the GP32X file archive - a retro-active "thankyou" based on the amount of appreciation the community actually feels... well, perhaps I should have held back dev fund donations until after delivery to aim at that.

I did but obviously oh so wrong, thanks for the refresher.

No worries. Having donated specifically to semi-randomly reward the kind of people who have supplied me much entertainment with earlier ports and games n stuff, I was quite quite certain what I thought I'd been donating for. I'm FAR happier to reward someone who wasn't asking for money than someone who goes into a venture "because they can get a free Pandora" or "to win a $prize$ at a coding competition". The latter in particular is just fine, but not something I'm interested in funding. For anyone who doesn't want to do it for nothing, offer your goods for sale - I'm happy to pay a reasonable fee for what I like. I just loved the idea of giving some love back to the guys who do it for love of the craft/equipment - in tangible beer-money form.

Sorry about the spelling cock-up BTW - and thanks for not taking a fence.

 

[Sphinxter]

Sorry about the spelling cock-up BTW - and thanks for not taking a fence.
If the shoe fits...

 

[Chip]

Monk, you've taken something innocuous the wrong way and run with it to a completely inaccurate conclusion.

Firstly, I am not aware of any specific plans for the dev fund, only what we'd like to do.

Second, I said primarily 1 and 7, not exclusively 1 and 7.

Thirdly, I'm not sure how you managed to turn "We'd like to hold coding competitions and give out hardware to devs" into "We'd like to spend all the money on luring new devs into our trap and screw the guys who are already working on Pandora software", but I suspect it involves some innate desire to misinterpret everything I say for the worse.

Craig and ED have been funding coding compos for ages, and it's frequently "scenesters" who win. We're not giving Pandoras away to just anybody who wanders by and says they can program. We are giving Pandoras away to quite a few of the long-time devs here who have expressed interest in porting their software. I don't know who is on the list and who isn't, but I'd estimate that there are approximately 20-30 people on it. Twenty Pandoras cost quite a bit of money. The dev fund isn't paying for all of them (there probably isn't enough money in the fund to pay for all of them), but every little bit helps. It's worth it to us (both Openpandora and "us" as a community) to help out they guys and girls who write the software that makes the Pandora so interesting. That is exactly what we are doing.

 

[Monk]

Monk, you've taken something innocuous the wrong way and run with it to a completely inaccurate conclusion.

Oh? Yes?

Firstly, I am not aware of any specific plans for the dev fund, only what we'd like to do.

Sorry - I tend to think of you as OP's press person, so give what you say more credence than I would most other posters.

Second, I said primarily 1 and 7, not exclusively 1 and 7.

Two points:

1. I read "primarily" and not "exclusively". Not only that, I even quoted it - so I know you said "primarily". You have taken something I have said the wrong way and run with it to a completely inaccurate conclusion.

2. Oh, I can't even bother with 2! (to complex to hope I'll be clear enough and you'll put in enough effort to "get it").

Thirdly, I'm not sure how you managed to turn "We'd like to hold coding competitions and give out hardware to devs" into "We'd like to spend all the money on luring new devs into our trap and screw the guys who are already working on Pandora software", but I suspect it involves some innate desire to misinterpret everything I say for the worse.

Chip, you've taken something innocuous the wrong way and run with it to a completely inaccurate conclusion. I'm not SURE how or why, but I suspect it involves some innate desire to misinterpret everything I say for the worse.

Craig and ED have been funding coding compos for ages, and it's frequently "scenesters" who win. We're not giving Pandoras away to just anybody who wanders by and says they can program. We are giving Pandoras away to quite a few of the long-time devs here who have expressed interest in porting their software.


Just now you were not aware of ANY of the specific plans for the dev fund - now you know more?

I don't know who is on the list and who isn't, but I'd estimate that there are approximately 20-30 people on it.

Let me get this right. I shouldn't take you at your word, don't read too much into what you say, you've no idea about any specifics or who might be on the list to have a dev Pandora but there are about 20 to 30 of them?

Twenty Pandoras cost quite a bit of money.

No shit Sherlock!

The dev fund isn't paying for all of them (there probably isn't enough money in the fund to pay for all of them), but every little bit helps. It's worth it to us (both Openpandora and "us" as a community) to help out they guys and girls who write the software that makes the Pandora so interesting. That is exactly what we are doing.



It's also contrary to what we were told the Dev Fund was for before I donated. I've quoted the majority of what Craig said about the Dev fund in the thread that I followed back in... July I think it was, and I don't recall anything about supplying dev units to anyone to produce Pandora stuff for (please do, graciously, remind me if I'm wrong). I was up for funding retroactive "thankyous" but was quite leery seeing that the fund might be used PRIMARILY for functions I had not approved, and frankly do not want to pay for. Your post - what I am responding to now - has significantly increased my irritation. I do NOT need (or care) to be scolded or nagged because I don't like my donation to be used in a manner I dissaprove of - even just "primarily" rather than en toto.

Ta very much.

 

[Chip]

I was up for funding retroactive "thankyous" but was quite leery seeing that the fund might be used PRIMARILY for functions I had not approved, and frankly do not want to pay for. Your post - what I am responding to now - has significantly increased my irritation. I do NOT need (or care) to be scolded or nagged because I don't like my donation to be used in a manner I dissaprove of - even just "primarily" rather than en toto.
And I will not apologize for scolding you when you continue to deliberately misinterprete my words. I'm not sure exactly what you expected the dev fund to pay for, but I think free Pandoras for developers who are working on software projects for the platform is a pretty significant "retroactive thank you".

The voting system Craig mentioned back in June was just one idea, and it may still happen. There may be other ways in which we use the funds to support the devs as well, but it hasn't been hashed out yet. Divying up the dev fund is not vital to getting the first batch manufactured and shipped, so it's not currently being worked on. Once the first batch has shipped and things calm down, Craig and ED will work it out.

 

[renegadechic]

hey so i gave this money to charity and though it was my decision and responsibility and i gave it quite happily, with scant information of what exactly it was going to be used for, i am going to throw my toys out of the pram unless i can guarantee its going to go to exactly who i wanted it to and not to something else.

what do you mean i am a jackass? but... i am surely Important and Amazing for giving you these monies... i know charity is meant to be without self interest but... but.. ok i am a jackass.

stop moaning already, noone begged you to donate.

 

[Monk]

And I will not apologize for scolding you when you continue to deliberately misinterprete my words.

Pot. Kettle. I can't imagine that you are NOT deliberately winding me up.

I'm not sure exactly what you expected the dev fund to pay for,

So read my posts already. Not hard. Not hardware. I'd try discussing it but you are obviously not looking for answers, only in putting me down. Well, stuff that, frankly. If you keep assuming ill intent and prodding people on that basis, I am sure that sooner or later you will see ill intent even if only in a self-fullfilling prophecy kind of way.

The voting system Craig mentioned back in June was just one idea, and it may still happen. There may be other ways in which we use the funds to support the devs as well, but it hasn't been hashed out yet. Divying up the dev fund is not vital to getting the first batch manufactured and shipped, so it's not currently being worked on. Once the first batch has shipped and things calm down, Craig and ED will work it out.

Yeah, I think you've confirmed my thinking - I shouldn't have donated before Craig and ED worked out and specified EXACTLY what they were going to do with the dev fund money. Once they know what they are going to do I can make a more informed decision, and perhaps redonate if it turns out to be something I want to donate to.

but.. ok i am a jackass.

:shrug

 

[lingenfr]

Call me crazy, you write (or port) an app, you put a paypal link on your website, people appreciate it, they paypal you some love. If OP wants to facilitate that great, but I wouldn't give my money to a third party if for no other reason than I don't want their value judgments doling out my loot. Folks can also organize a bounty if they want to attrack a dev.

 

[Monk]

That seems to be a better route to ensuring ones donations go to where one feels they are most deserved. I can be slow, but I'm learning

It would be dissapointing if people who put in development work that one appreciated considerably didn't provide a payment mechanism like that but in retrospect I guess if they REALLY don't want any money then it's not right to hope OP will reward them from the dev fund anyway. More transparency = better, and I should probably just put in more effort towards individual devs once I actually have some Pandora software.

 

[u9i]

I would like to add that i feel pretty much like monk (not angry or pissed at chip, but that other stuff ) I too did not expect to be funding free Pandoras to potential developers. To me that is like OpenPandora Ltd. snatching the money themselves to "sell" more units.

I would like to see people sending an application to the fund that would help development, e.g. "this is my game, i need x amount to produce assets like graphics and sound." I use this example because that is what i actually would need funding for myself

I don't mind so much it funding competitions because in all honesty that is software, so i cannot complain.

 

[Monk]

To me that is like OpenPandora Ltd. snatching the money themselves to "sell" more units.

Wow. See, you know I said I couldn't put #2 into words above? I do believe that YOU "get it" as that's very much how I feel, but I couldn't resist trying to over-explain it as I doubt anyone who doesn't feel that way would understand at all, certainly not from the reactions I've read above. Then the explanation would be so long that few would bother to wrap their heads around it and instead resort to taunts.

And yes, sadly, I'm fairly easy to provoke, if someone feels like doing so Thanks for voicing that particular aspect so clearly and concisely.

 

[gp32rich]

I donated to the fund because I trust Craig, etc. to do the right thing to make Pandora a success. However they want to.
I have stated my ideas of what I'd like, but finally it's their call.

 

[renegadechic]

sorry to have sounded a little bit overzealous with the "jackass" thing. it was late and i was concentrating too hard on trying to show how silly the point was.

consider this though, if someone is capable of making a game, there are a great many reasons why using a Pandora generated development fund is not a great idea as an option for helping someone create a game. if someone essentially says i need $xx.xx for creating it at all, there needs to be some reflection on the fact that once the game is made, there will be no reason why it cannot simply be used for other consoles with the focus even potentially shifting away from the Pandora. Why should the dev fund therefore be used in such a way as to not really just benefit the Pandora?

Right now i see the dev fund being used to create Pandora specific things, especially so that we have more things ready for launch, i.e. the kernel, the more extensive OS, the lighter OS and various game launchers. In terms of hardware development, i do somewhat expect the operation itself to have funded that development, but i think the dev fund IS justified in sending out dev boards to coders working on things that will help with the release. The question of sending dev units to someone porting a game or an emulator to the Pandora, to a certain extent potentially comes under similar question as the game developers, however in this case i see it as more justified as if someone can add functionality and selling points to the Pandora, in the way that an emulator does, then it is benefitting the audience more than the creator.

Now i think that once the Pandora is essentially finished and out then investing more in game creation could be more of a relaxed question, but even then i think it would probably be more useful to use the fun to pursuade the porting of more high profile and complicated games to the systems with a little "impetus" money.

In summary i see the priorities thusly:

1. Fund boards and financial incentive to developers getting the Pandora's core software as completed as possible before launch

2. Fund boards and incentives to devs to write emulators and very high profile game ports that will boost interest, sales and enthuse the userbase, PRIOR to launch

3. As #2 for post launch

4. Have the more assistance based developmental investment and bounties etc.

This way i just think it keeps Pandora users as the more primary benefactors from the dev fund.

 

[Chip]

The point that Monk and u9i continue to miss is that we're not just handing out Pandoras to new or potential devs. Most of the units are being comped to existing devs. People who have been around a long time and who probably would have bought a Pandora and programmed for it anyway. We have planned to do this from the begining with or without the dev fund, but the dev fund makes it possible to comp more units. Maybe you would prefer we just send $300 checks instead, but this method just plain works better.

 

[Monk]

sorry to have sounded a little bit overzealous with the "jackass" thing. it was late and i was concentrating too hard on trying to show how silly the point was.

Or at least how silly you think it is... {tries to hammer home that point} but... no worries. Actually after a little thought I had to tone down my response. Every issue surrounding the Pandora is emotive and you've as much right as I have to get , um, responsive I wouldn't have it any other way - if we didn't get emotional about the Pandora then we might as well pack up and go home, because it's become pointless/not worth the effort at that stage.

Your newer post seems to invite conversation, but I am slightly leery. I could delve further into it, but I am no great fan of stress that can be avoided and I'm not keen to be jumped all over by someone else, then someone else, then someone else whilst trying to explain (defend?) my POV on one slight aspect... but to give an absurd (yet curiously close) analogy, some people donate to the poorest in Africa/insertcauseofyourchoicehere. When they learn that only 20% (or sometimes less) of what they donate gets to Africa/insertcauseofyourchoicehere they tend to get annoyed. When they discover that much of what reaches Africa/insertcauseofyourchoicehere is grabbed by those in power rather than the poor, hungry, and powerless they get even more frustrated. I feel just like that - I dontaed a TINY amount to the poor hungry African/insertcauseofyourchoicehere (Pandora-software-developing) masses, and now I'm told that the majority of that will actually go to the ruling government to pay for hardware. To pay OP back for hardware which they have had to pay to buy. So in essence the money goes from my account to OPs.

Having to constrain myself now - I am too easily lead to assume a conversation is worthwhile! :lol:

Ta,

The point that Monk and u9i continue to miss is that we're not just handing out Pandoras to new or potential devs.

A perfect example of why I am leery to continue is this thread. I cannot speak for u9i, but for myself your statement is completely untrue. I have not missed that aspect. At all. I am cognisant of it. I comprehend.

 

[Chip]

I have not missed that aspect. At all. I am cognisant of it. I comprehend.
In that case, your outrage is not merely misguided, it is downright absurd. It's not like we have stacks of Pandoras just lying around. It's not like the couple dozen units we're giving out wouldn't sell if we didn't give them away. As I said before, the entire dev fund wouldn't cover the cost of all the units we're giving out, and only a portion of it is being used for this purpose. We're not making anything on this. Most of the cost of these units is coming out of Openpandora's pocket, so your African charity analogy is frankly insulting. All we are doing is giving back to some of the devs who have contributed to the community. By sending them hardware instead of cash we can ensure that there are at least some Pandoras in the hands of those who can make the most of them. The up side to this is obvious, and the down side is non-existant. I really am struggling to undrestand how you could possibly be against the idea for reasons other than deliberate contrarianism.

 

[Monk]

QUOTE

In that case, your outrage is not merely misguided, it is downright absurd. ... your African charity analogy is frankly insulting... I really am struggling to undrestand how you could possibly be against the idea for reasons other than deliberate contrarianism.


Points.

Calling someone misguided, downright absurd, insulting (especailly when they were not talking to YOU) may not be the IDEAL way to get the best out of them. That post is a prime example of why I was unsure about responding to RenegadeChic - because I expected you to come back and "have a go". As expected, here you are doing exactly that.

It is blatantly obvious that you are NOT struggling to understand at all - you are not trying to understand. You have zero interest in understanding. AFAICS you are doing nothing but harrassing me, whereas RenegadeChic actually seems to be trying to discuss things in an adult fashion. I see no attempt to discuss from you, to understand, or to move anything on in any way but to browbeat me. I have run out of tolerance for you. Kindly refrain from your current insistence on argumentative behaviour towards me.

 

[Monk]

I think free Pandoras for developers who are working on software projects for the platform is a pretty significant "retroactive thank you".

Your misunderstandings have pretty well all been answered in posts #4,#9,#21,#27,#31 of this thread, but if it helps you to understand AT ALL I believe it is very difficult to thank someone "retroactively" in advance. I believe everything else has been said, sometimes repeatedly.

 

[DixieDawg]

I gave to the developer's fund because I felt it was the right thing to do in an effort to help promote new software, emulators and homebrew. Really to reward those that spent a lot of their free time creating stuff for the community to use. Also, we were told that if we donated then we would have access to early beta software before it was available to the community as a whole. I hope that still happens!

 

[Awakening]

Also, we were told that if we donated then we would have access to early beta software before it was available to the community as a whole. I hope that still happens!

Yeah, I think that's a good way to reward those who donate.