Developer Fund

[yosh64]

hey

@Gruso: I like your idea, I was thinking about some things to extend it.

I think it would be nice for programs that have received an award to also have a seal of quality, most popular, most original, editors choice, best unheard of, most improved version, program of the year or whatever the reason for the award logo put next to them when they appear for download and what not . Also, what about developer profiles? (edit, nevermind I see ya actually mentioned this, hehe).

Now onto thinking about how the folks who evaluate programs for awards are to cope with such a high work load. Although I think this is more the responcibility of the founders of the fund, but I thought I might throw a few ideas their way regardless.

Again, I think it would be quite a task to evaluate all new programs and all new versions of the same program if they were all put in a queue to be evaluated, so I think something would need to be done to reduce such a work load.

I was thinking in the form of a nomination system, where if more than 100 people nominate a program then it's automatically put up for evaluation. Hmm, or maybe if a program has got over a certain amount of feedback in any or more specific areas then they are automatically nominated for certain awards.

But I don't think it would be such a good idea to fully rely on the publics feedback, so as you can see by the pesudo awards I mentioned above some could be left to the editors and other special considerations.

Anyhows I hope you like my ideas, and incase you missed my previous suggestions please see page 8 about having quaterly and yearly events/days. Well someone else suggested a developers day on page 8 also which I also like the idea of, hehe.

edit
Another thing we must think about, are all these ideas even fessible? are they even needed to find games that deserve awards? who will develop the feedback systems and such? I imagine it would be alot of work, but I guess this is out of our control.

cyas

 

[CronoTriggerfan]

@CronoTriggerfan: Its not a trust issue regarding whether or not it will go to developers. I'm certain that it will. I just don't like the way craigix is trying to sell the Development Fund as a favor to the community. He will benefit from it also. It's just to me a little deceiving. And sure he's going to money into something that could very well benefit him in the long run. Who wouldn't?

It's not a favor, it's just a way to increase revenue for developers. The only way he'll benefit from it is through the increased productivity in software making for his product, which would be achieved by donating through Openpandora or directly to a dev, so I really don't see why you're bitching at all. If you have that big a problem with donations, then just don't donate.

 

[kneehighspy]

hey craig,

if any of the developers could possibly use any type of hardware for their dev pc's or what not, i'd be happy to also help in that way any way i could.

if devs need extra memory or hard drives, graphic cards, etc: i have stuff i'd be willing to donate from all my upgraded pc's and hardware.

just a thought.

 

[Adventus]

QUOTE
Separation of apps into categories will prevent something like a wifi driver being trumped by a game through sheer volume of votes. Likewise, by separating categories further into original apps / ports etc, something like SqDef3D won't be trumped by say, Stargus.
Dang. But your right SqDef is a much more awesome achievment.

 

[gruso]

QUOTE
Separation of apps into categories will prevent something like a wifi driver being trumped by a game through sheer volume of votes. Likewise, by separating categories further into original apps / ports etc, something like SqDef3D won't be trumped by say, Stargus.
Dang. But your right SqDef is a much more awesome achievment.

Hehe, no prizes for guessing why Stratagus was on my mind this morning. I don't even know if that was a fair example, I certainly wasn't implying that it's a quick & easy port. But I think you know that.

So, what's this about Stargus on Pandora? h34r:

[edit] I've actually got some questions about the work that went into 2xWargus, I posted them in that thread.

[edit2] @yosh64 - Thanks for liking my ideas, I like yours too. I agree that relying solely on public feedback is not enough. There will be devs putting hard yards in who the masses are barely aware of, so admin discretion will be crucial. That's partly why I suggested the "Essential Apps" thing - it would be a good way to give some deserving underdogs the limelight.

 

[Adventus]

QUOTE
So, what's this about Stargus on Pandora?
Since the resolution is greater than 640x480, When i build stratagus for Pandora it'll be compatible with all the games without modification.... Boswars, Stargus & Wargus.

It really will be an easy port.

 

[saboteur]

Just to put some perspective on this point :

If every one of the buyers of the 3000 initial run gave £10 each as a donation that comes out at a fund of £30000. That is no small potatoes in any sense.

The fund has great potential to benefit the community, but to even suggest that it won't help to shift unit's is clearly a false possition.

That said, if the fund is run along the lines that people have expressed in this forum, then I for one will be donating

<disclaimer>
These views are my own and may bear no relation to reality
</disclaimer>

 

[Joshwaan2k]

I agree saboteur big boost for devs

I for one will be donating

I'm also pleased it's being push back the release date, want my Pandora perfect

 

[iprice]

I'm not sure that a development fund would be fair at all.

As a longstanding free software developer, I've always been more interested in getting feedback than a financial reward for my games.

I recently developed a puzzle game for the GP2X (B'lox!) which according to the downloads section has received nearly 300 downloads from this site alone (let alone from my own and other sites and links). However, there is not 1 single comment entered in the downloads section.

Not one comment saying "Nice game" or "It's crap" or even "Meh"

Admittedly I have had comments on the site, but very few in comparison to how many actually downloaded the game.

If people can't even be bothered to leave a simple comment, how can we believe that they'd leave feedback/rating where there is a financial incentive to the developer? I believe that a select few (those "star" developers that everyone knows/praises constantly) would end up with the majority of the kitty, leaving little for unknowns. How can that then be used as an incentive?

I don't think that there is any fair method to a development kitty at all. If a consumer enjoys a free product and feels that it is worth something to them, then let them decide if they wish to contribute directly to the author.

 

[gruso]

I recently developed a puzzle game for the GP2X (B'lox!) which according to the downloads section has received nearly 300 downloads from this site alone (let alone from my own and other sites and links). However, there is not 1 single comment entered in the downloads section.

Not one comment saying "Nice game" or "It's crap" or even "Meh"

Admittedly I have had comments on the site, but very few in comparison to how many actually downloaded the game.

If people can't even be bothered to leave a simple comment, how can we believe that they'd leave feedback/rating where there is a financial incentive to the developer?
An ebay-style feedback system would address this problem. I think you'd find a lot more people leaving feedback if they were just reminded to do so. I know laziness/forgetfulness is no excuse, particularly when you consider the hours that go into coding. But that's people for you, that's the nature of the internet and its gimme gimme culture.

Is this not an opportunity to improve the situation?

As for the actual distribution of funds, we don't know how that's going to work yet so you shouldn't admit defeat so readily.

B'lox rocks by the way.

 

[Kyo]

I second that. You can't rate a game before you've played it, and you can't play a game before you've downloaded it. So if you're playing the game after downloading it, you'll forget to leave a comment

 

[saboteur]

I'm not sure that a development fund would be fair at all.

As a longstanding free software developer, I've always been more interested in getting feedback than a financial reward for my games.

I recently developed a puzzle game for the GP2X (B'lox!) which according to the downloads section has received nearly 300 downloads from this site alone (let alone from my own and other sites and links). However, there is not 1 single comment entered in the downloads section.

Not one comment saying "Nice game" or "It's crap" or even "Meh"

Admittedly I have had comments on the site, but very few in comparison to how many actually downloaded the game.

If people can't even be bothered to leave a simple comment, how can we believe that they'd leave feedback/rating where there is a financial incentive to the developer? I believe that a select few (those "star" developers that everyone knows/praises constantly) would end up with the majority of the kitty, leaving little for unknowns. How can that then be used as an incentive?

I don't think that there is any fair method to a development kitty at all. If a consumer enjoys a free product and feels that it is worth something to them, then let them decide if they wish to contribute directly to the author.

It's an interesting point.

one solution maybe for the fund to operate as a software label.

Dev's submit their software to the label for reveiw. A group of say 10 members 'review' programs submitted to the fund. The reveiwers score on set key points and then an average score is arrived at. If the average score is above say 80% then the program is accepted by the label and posted in the download section and then every download nets the developer a £1 or some such.

It would need a bit of setting up but it would be a neat way of rewarding dev's.

cheers

 

[Tobriand]

If people can't even be bothered to leave a simple comment, how can we believe that they'd leave feedback/rating where there is a financial incentive to the developer? I believe that a select few (those "star" developers that everyone knows/praises constantly) would end up with the majority of the kitty, leaving little for unknowns. How can that then be used as an incentive?

Why do you think I keep mentioning setting a limit on the amount a dev can get for a particular project? It forces those doing the evaluating not to keep giving to particular "star devs" for the same project.

But yes, you're right, some worthy programs won't receive quantity feedback. But as long as there is quality, I suspect this won't matter too much. Craig, ED, etc. have been around the forums for a long time; they know how feedback tends to happen here (i.e. hundreds of posts for an emulator, or ports of major software, and usually ~5-10 for a homebrew effort, unless the guy porting it has managed already to win everyone's hearts and minds (Alex, Ruckage)).

Consequently, I suspect they'll listen to that feedback, even if there isn't much of it. I'm sure if there isn't enough, then they'll try it themselves, too.

There are, of course, transparent solutions possible (i.e. based on play-time reporting), but those are potentially PR nightmares if executed badly. Really useful (and imo pretty fair for quite a lot of things) if executed well, though.

EDIT: We're also forgetting that Pandora has WiFi and a keyboard. Why not build in comments into the actual OS? Add an option to sync comments with download server, and you get instant feedback. Also allows for interesting ideas with homepage widgets - e.g. a quote appears on the home tab (a comment for a random app), and, if it's interesting, you can hit it, and you'll be playing it before you can say Pandora

 

[Kyo]

Well I, for one, will make sure I leave comments on the stuff I download, now that my eyes have been opened!

 

[gruso]

EDIT: We're also forgetting that Pandora has WiFi and a keyboard. Why not build in comments into the actual OS? Add an option to sync comments with download server, and you get instant feedback. Also allows for interesting ideas with homepage widgets - e.g. a quote appears on the home tab (a comment for a random app), and, if it's interesting, you can hit it, and you'll be playing it before you can say Pandora

That's a fantastic idea. There's no better time to jot down some feedback than when you're using it. Almost every day I'll be on the GP2X and some constructive feedback pops into my head, but by the time I'm back online it's forgotten... and generally remembered again next time I'm stuck on a train between cities.

 

[Holokauston]

An ebay-style feedback system would address this problem. I think you'd find a lot more people leaving feedback if they were just reminded to do so. I know laziness/forgetfulness is no excuse, particularly when you consider the hours that go into coding. But that's people for you, that's the nature of the internet and its gimme gimme culture.

Is this not an opportunity to improve the situation?

As for the actual distribution of funds, we don't know how that's going to work yet so you shouldn't admit defeat so readily.

B'lox rocks by the way.

Not sure how ebay does it but a fair feedback from a games or program would require a delay between downloading and sending feedback, as you can't rate a program you haven't tested so every time you download something you get a e-mail 2weeks later(and that will often go directly to trash, specially after the "hype" is gone).
Another option would be to have a appdb like wine which would make it easy for people to see development and rate the program/game during it's progress (but this isn't flawless either and more than a few people seems to think this forum will be all that's needed on that front).

Third option is a built in function on the Pandora that ask you to rate a program after say 5hours used or something, that way you could generate a unique code for every vote and make sure it's a fair system and the Pandora would send your vote data as soon as you connected to internet (if you allow it, but I think most people would).

The most "fair" way and easiest, is to make a "Award" system, a small panel with great devs that actually know what to look for etc. and once / twice a year they select a few programs / games in different categories and nominate them and then people can vote (or the other way around, people nominate and they look thru the top 5 nominations or something)

 

[Trip]

EDIT: We're also forgetting that Pandora has WiFi and a keyboard. Why not build in comments into the actual OS? Add an option to sync comments with download server, and you get instant feedback. Also allows for interesting ideas with homepage widgets - e.g. a quote appears on the home tab (a comment for a random app), and, if it's interesting, you can hit it, and you'll be playing it before you can say Pandora

That's a fantastic idea. There's no better time to jot down some feedback than when you're using it. Almost every day I'll be on the GP2X and some constructive feedback pops into my head, but by the time I'm back online it's forgotten... and generally remembered again next time I'm stuck on a train between cities.

Ideas like this are how I think the Pandora will be able to hold it's own against some of the more popular hanhelds. It might not have much backing from the major games companies but if we get the rest of the system right, they may just come to us.

 

[cools]

How about taking a cue from some of the (private) torrent sites?

Feedback on a download - good or bad - contributes to your spirit/level/credits, in much the same way as the Xbox Live Gamerscore. Essentially worthless, but something to be competitive about.

 

[Sphinxter]

Am I the only one having archive voting flashbacks?

 

[TaG]

Why not build in comments into the actual OS?
If the contributions are voluntary it seems to me a little wrong to build something into the OS. Don't get me wrong, I'll be contributing and would welcome something along these lines if it is good, but if the contribution is voluntary then this needs to be a bit of code that is downloaded voluntarily too.
Also, if different apps end up being downloaded from different sites they will not register.
Some people will think of it as a bit 'big brother'.