There will always be a horde that doesn't like the keyboard you choose.
Regardless WHICH one you choose.
It's pretty much hopeless
There are English users, and there are international users. For the former efficiency is key, same for the latter, and it also means having full layout. It is not esoteric.
Well, without reading the instructions, you wouldn't even know how to press F11 and F12.
But after having been informed, for the people who use them, I find it easy to remember. Please try all layouts on regular people and pay close attention to how much can be communicated without explanation. A lot of things fail on a very basic level.
The last thing I want is people needing to find out which key is where.
I already learned that nearly no one read the instruction manual or quickstart guide on the Pandora... a lot of customers actually didn't know Pandora and Powerswitch can be used for a hard reset or that Pandora button opens the menu.
So everything should be printed on as cleanly as possible.
True, especially the shift and ctrl on shoulders fail, because its not expected. Holding the swedish-button/swede to power off is atleast analogous to the impulse switch of regular PCs.
Consider that the more things you print, the less clear it becomes, we all agreed on that except for grench. If you take things out of alternate graphics, some layouts actually have more prints than a regular keyboard...!?
Same with needlessly printing foreign symbols. You remove this need when things are where they are supposed to be, rather than also moved. Moving things, is very detrimental. Because people know where things are supposed to be, this can not be changed.
Things meant to be hidden also are hidden in incompatible ways, the more you observe this fact, the less you create problems by trying to re-arrange things visually.
Also, Fn is in a very hard to reach area, same for ESC.
Fn is used for far less things on this layout, with not so frequent use, so lets be fair. Having them, and especially Esc, out of the way, is halfway a very good thing.
Well, okay, you use AltGr for most modifiers, but then again, AltGr is where the menu button should be in my opinion (I don't want to open the startmenu using the nubs or touch, I always press the Pandora key on the Pandora).
I dont, because i didnt know that was a thing. I see how it works, and i see how it fails. Its not special enough to create a thing for.
The most people use AltGr as a modifier to do thirdlevelshift, nobody uses Fn or meta, or the like. The nubs werent good on the pandora, so less of a issue with new nubs. I think rightclicking the desktop is the sweet-spot between speed and less waste, because your hands are not hovering keyboard when you are "using the desktop". The nubs are the most central and self-explanatory things, use them.
No accidental ESC, Alt+F4 or Ctrl+alt+F*
Yes, but also annoying far when you need it, e.g. when using vi.
No moreso than typing a number on the pandora, dont see an issue. Having it in the position it is expected, for everyone, is key.
There are also keys missing (I can't find °'§, for example) and, well, we got a double-width space-bar, so one of those two buttons down there would need to move as well.
' is on AltGr+5, you can type it with one combo-click since AltGr is the bottommost columnkey. ° and § are also missing on non-german keyboards, hadnt seen that complaint either, but lets add that.
Be careful: There are two ' ' on the keyboard that look the same with most layouts (those two were different keys, really!), but they have different uses.
How often are they used, and what for. § is a paragraph i know. You could keep it in ctrl+v if you write a legal document/LaTex.
That would still mean that you need to get it from somewhere, as you need to do ctrl+c from somewhere.
We got enough keys, so at least the standard keyboard keys should be somewhere.
Shift+altGr+3 and you got it. If you use shoulders thats easy enough. I could look up where it is on international-altGr mapping.
§ is not a standard keyboard key on anything beside a german keyboard, which is why it isnt standard. All things considered, having it on the Alternate graphics layer is how it usually is.
You dont need front-tick, because as a
diactric it is ' (apostrophe).
Is the mold made? Otherwise please reconsider the space, and hopefully you will come down on the side of the great majority of those who have worked on layouts. Big space is as useless as the big return-key from the example earlier.
No further comment, we discussed about the double-space key a couple of times already, every single time with the same argument.
I think even a poll had been made and most wanted a double-space key.
That was when the implications weren't known, nor stated, which is a basic flaw. If you do a poll now, you will get different results. Just as the people looking into it overwhelmingly decides against doublespeace being a good idea. What can be more important and telling?
Consider the opposite, is anything meaningful lost with single wide space, no colours to signify position, a real AltGr. All of these are inclusive examples, the people wanting the opposite, are fine with the alternative, but doing each of them rubs someone the wrong way enough to have them cancel the sale. As you have said, make it a compromise, that works for the most people. Excluding people to design-by-comitee is a quick way to make it compromised instead. Something that is bad at everything.
I have been wrong about a lot of things concerning keyboard layouts, if you don't do the work you don't get the benefits, and if you do, you are bound to learn from mistakes. If it was always the obvious and things magically fit together, it would never change.
What you are right about is that all people cant be fully happy at all times, because it cant be all things all the time. There are drawbacks to even good things, making them a consideration, a trade.
Wide noncentral space is trading something as vain as a
doublewide enter when used with two thumbs, for a whole slew of drawbacks. There are no shortcuts to figuring this out fully, it can only, and has, been established on account of research. Refusing to look into it is the opposite of design. The hard work is done.
True, it's uncluttered, and it looks really clean - but it's too limited, in my opinion.
It has the most flexibility modularity and function of all the layouts. Only for typing F-keys it is worse, but that is not a free trade at all.
It's missing keys compared to other layouts.
Missing keys do not lead to a better functional keyboard.
It has more usable keys, thats what a
functional layout is. Below a certain treshold, depending on language, it seizes to be functional.
BTW: I've rarely met anyone who thought the Pandora keyboard was cluttered because the symbols were on the keys.
That's common with mobile keyboards. It's a fact they got less keys than a real keyboard, so it's clear you need these symbols on normal keys.
I haven't met anyone who found this confusing.
Real buttons, doing one thing, full layout, ability to go AZERTY or make additional keymats,
US-diactrics efficiency. The proof is in the pudding, try it.
The pandora keyboard is in a league of its own, because it doesn't have enough buttons to be any better. Try showing it to some of the people who didn't buy one, those are the silent majority here.
The second you take real buttons away, replace AltGr with symbols all over the place, you have to start looking for things that are found in the wrong places, with the wrong modifier, that is confusing, and tedious.
In design, nobody screams out the perfect solution just because they have a problem. When you show people the solution, and they apply their assumptions to how it works, you have solved it.
There arent many people like me, and you havent met me either, don't assume I'm not pedantic because the people you meet are different.
It's the complete difference to what Grench suggested first: It was also very well thought of and had a maximum functionality, but was too much for a normal user.
This one is clean and well thought of as well, but it's clean because it's sacrificing keys and functions.
You get only the problems you don't know about. Something that works for more people, that saw the light last september, or something made, or that changes inconsistently every week, or the last week.
Well, I could say the same: Why are you so sure people want to sacrifice symbols just to make the keyboard look more clean?
You claim this is the best possible keyboard layout here, and you try to imply that most people will think the same if they only tried it.
But how do can you imply this?
I know whatever layout I choose, some people will moan.
I think the best one we can choose is somewhere in between everything. It can't be perfect for any use case, but it shouldn't be terrible for an use case.
So whether you're working with vi or nano, are typing legal documents or doing spreadsheets, are coding in C++ or Linux shell: It should be usable for everyone. Not perfect (as that's not possible), but at least not awkward as well.
None of my mobile phones ever had a usable keyboard for a Linux terminal, btw.
I tried to use SSH on them for some remote administration, but it was simply horrible, as mobile phone keyboards are only suited for writing short messages.
That's what I want to prevent.
The keyboard should at least be usable for most common use cases.
I am sure it is because I have tested it. On all sorts of people. As for the hands on. In my experience the TOHKBD works _exactly_ the same as it did in testing, and i didnt have a proto of that either.
Clean is your words, they are not mutually exclusive. To me and everyone else it looks like a keyboard. My priorities are efficiency, in one way or another. I boiled all relevant language layouts down to what they had in common, rather than take the easy road and try to shoehorn the pandoralayout to fit everyone. If you do that you have a different group moaning in turn.
Symbols all over the keyboard doesn't look like a regular keyboard, people start worrying, and they scrutinize. When you show them something basic, they assume it is, and accept.
On my full german 105key desktop keyboard, there are 37 symbols. ( including ² ³ µ and ¦ (but its the same button as | which isnt printed, no €)
There are 37 symbols on the proposal
in firstpost 32
in mine. The difference is § € ° ´ ¨
§ Not common outside of German layout, makes it look foreign to anyone else. Ample space to implement on alternate graphics layer where it belongs.
€ AltGr+e (standard)
° Ok, i see your point. How much of a point is it? Its nowhere to be found on a
US keyboard not even
with international AltGr
´ See above
¨ should be " (which is included on both layouts).
Having brackets available, close to each other/natural position, with one click, in all of those cases, is very beneficial. The <> from ISO 105-key is nice, but not when / and \ is so far away. I agree 100% on the SSH, which is why I consider mobile keyboards to be a bit of a crux.
They all (?) suck because of this, relating to a lack of keys. Never the same on any, but never something to replicate, always something to _avoid_.
The only thing that doesn't suck, is the basics, and it has been the same since typewriters. You don't change anything if its not for the better. Applying hacks wholesale just because its problematic to do the default, is far removed from anything basic.
For language, they are most often unusable, and that is a much bigger use-case than any other put together.
This still happens among the pandorians, and it makes me sad.
