Current Keyboard Layout

[EvilDragon]

Is there a link to the updated current keyboard?

I'm always updating the layout directly, so the link shouldn't change.

Impossible. That layout editor produces stable links that always point to the same thing. If you change something and save again, the URL will have changed. I hope you haven't lost your changes.

Okay, that explains things.


I probably haven't lost them, I am sure I can find the layouts in my browser history then, but it explains why my updates haven't happened here

 

[Grench]

Is there a link to the updated current keyboard?

I'm always updating the layout directly, so the link shouldn't change.

Impossible. That layout editor produces stable links that always point to the same thing. If you change something and save again, the URL will have changed. I hope you haven't lost your changes.

Okay, that explains things.


I probably haven't lost them, I am sure I can find the layouts in my browser history then, but it explains why my updates haven't happened here

You were probably starting to wonder what the issue was with these keyboard idiots who keep arguing the same points that you already fixed.  I was wondering if any of the suggestions we were making are 'getting through' - the layout wasn't changing.

Glad that's sorted.  I'm very interested to see where things have gone to since your original post.

 

[Caine]

Having Fn+Super = Esc directly limits Super (which is a modifier key) from being applied to anything that otherwise lives on the Fn layer.  Nothing but Super can live on the Super key - much like a shift, alt, ctrl or Fn key cannot have an additional Fn definition.

Yep, that's a golden rule we've seen over and over again: all modifiers MUST be standalone keys, otherwise conflicts will arise.
You have a good grasp on the important issues and pitfalls of keyboard layout design Grench. I'm glad you're keeping a close eye on this.

 

[Grench]

Had a look at the current layout. Seems good to me, except for a few choices I'd like to have detailed :

- The "B" button on the lower level. I'm kind of a symmetry freak, so is there any reason why ?

- Is the R-Shift needed if we have a L-Shift on the shoulders ? Does any software require two shifts ? Same with Fn and L-Ctrl. Do we need these both on keyboard and shoulders ?

- How did you decide to put the R-Ctrl on R2, while L1 is L-Shift ? Doesn't AltGr (used for special characters) make more sense on the same level as Fn (used for special characters too) ?

- If the Fn + Brightness+ makes Brightness-, why keep Brightness- ? That would make room, right ?

Symmetry?  The Pyra layout has -more- symmetry than a standard keyboard does.

On the Pyra:  Although the B key is not dead center of the bottom row, G is.  The line between V and B is the 'center line'.  Moving up the keyboard a center line is maintained and the row to row key offset is maintained in a proper line.

On a standard keyboard:  The B is centered, G & H split the difference then Y is about 1/4 shifted left of H then 6 is centered between T and Y and the F7 key sits over 6, but offset a bit from it...  Although B is centered, if you follow the line up the keyboard, nothing else actually sits on that center line.  The offsets aren't even the same from row to row.

R-Shift and L-Shift are two different modifier keys with two unique codes passed to the keyboard driver.  Left shift + G is distinguishable from right shift + G.  The same goes for L-Shift, R-Shift, L-Alt, R-Alt (AltGr), L-Ctrl, R-Ctrl, L-Fn, R-Fn and Super.  Although your standard programs will treat both shifts the same, there is the capability for these to behave differently in the same program.  This becomes doubly important on a device like the Pyra where shoulder buttons need to be distinguished from keyboard buttons such that the shoulders can be dynamically re-mapped into whatever application plans to use them.

You could debate shuffling the 4 modifiers around the shoulder buttons and exactly which two belong together on which shoulder.  However, for the vast majority of the user base, that AltGr key is simply going to be the R-Alt key.  Alt belongs with Ctrl.  Shift and Fn, in the case of ED's stated desires are each always keyboard symbol shifts/modifiers, so it makes some sense to have those together.

I suspect you're not understanding that there are TWO brightness up controls on that button.  One controls the screen backlight and the other (Fn layer) controls the keyboard backlight.

Does that help?

 

[Saber]

Having Fn+Super = Esc directly limits Super (which is a modifier key) from being applied to anything that otherwise lives on the Fn layer.  Nothing but Super can live on the Super key - much like a shift, alt, ctrl or Fn key cannot have an additional Fn definition.

Yep, that's a golden rule we've seen over and over again: all modifiers MUST be standalone keys, otherwise conflicts will arise.

You have a good grasp on the important issues and pitfalls of keyboard layout design Grench. I'm glad you're keeping a close eye on this.

It's dependent though on if you want to do some Super + key shortcuts which have counterparts already available under other Control + key commands, I think.

I'm not aware as I haven't looked into it if there are any Super + symbol combos in existence so putting Escape under Fn at Super might not be limiting to the Super + key shortcut roster(even though that's not where I'd put Escape personally). Basically, for the average user, Super is the logo key which will pop up the start menu.

A list of Super key shortcuts is under the spoiler and here. All of the key combos shown in this specific graphic you'd use with Super are all on the primary level.

Spoiler

 

[Grench]

Having Fn+Super = Esc directly limits Super (which is a modifier key) from being applied to anything that otherwise lives on the Fn layer.  Nothing but Super can live on the Super key - much like a shift, alt, ctrl or Fn key cannot have an additional Fn definition.

Yep, that's a golden rule we've seen over and over again: all modifiers MUST be standalone keys, otherwise conflicts will arise.

You have a good grasp on the important issues and pitfalls of keyboard layout design Grench. I'm glad you're keeping a close eye on this.

It's dependent though on if you want to do some Super + key shortcuts which have counterparts already available under other Control + key commands, I think.

I'm not aware as I haven't looked into it if there are any Super + symbol combos in existence so putting Escape under Fn at Super might not be limiting to the Super + key shortcut roster(even though that's not where I'd put Escape personally). Basically, for the average user, Super is the logo key which will pop up the start menu.

A list of Super key shortcuts is under the spoiler and here. All of the key combos shown in this specific graphic you'd use with Super are all on the primary level.

Spoiler

I suspect that is the short list of super shortcuts - that and it does not take into account that additional shortcuts can be made by the end user.  In theory, having Esc on Super eliminates the entire Fn layer key set - all of it - 1/3 of the available keys - from being available for use with Super.

It can also be used in conjunction with Ctrl and likely Alt as well - here is an additional example:

https://help.ubuntu.com/stable/ubuntu-help/keyboard-nav.html

The whole idea is that Super becomes a modifier of modifiers and not just a menu shortcut - for that kind of single-use shortcut key, we could just use the 'HWmenu' or 'Help' key key.  Maybe I should re-name 'Help' to 'Menu'.  Hmm.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b766912420e62d3618bb682251e50f5f

Anyway, if you want a single-purpose menu key, make one.  It would be a shame to accidentally damage/limit/neuter the Super key by putting a Fn layer key onto it though.

 

[Saber]

 It would be a shame to accidentally damage/limit/neuter the Super key by putting a Fn layer key onto it though.

Maybe or maybe not as there are still plenty of keys on the primary level to use with the Super/Pyra/Logo key in addition to all the other modifiers and their combos at our disposal. It's doubtful ED would have a change of heart or the vision but it seems almost foolishness to use a precious key just for the Start Menu pop up and some shortcuts we never knew we were missing or most will ever need. Hopefully, a longer list of Super key shortcuts will show up, shortcuts that we don't already have with other modifiers.   

 

[Neelix]

Had a look at the current layout. Seems good to me, except for a few choices I'd like to have detailed :

- The "B" button on the lower level. I'm kind of a symmetry freak, so is there any reason why ?

 Symmetry?  The Pyra layout has -more- symmetry than a standard keyboard does.

On the Pyra:  Although the B key is not dead center of the bottom row, G is.  The line between V and B is the 'center line'.  Moving up the keyboard a center line is maintained and the row to row key offset is maintained in a proper line.

Pretty sure this was a reference to the gaming buttons, not the keyboard section. B and Y have the letter below the arrow symbol, A and X have the letter above the arrow symbol. This makes A and B look asymmetrical. I don't think this was intentional on ED's part though, it's just how EightBit had entered them into the layout editor.

I honestly doubt that it would appear that way on a finished unit. We're only deciding on what goes where here, here not the actual look of how the keys will be printed.

-Neelix

 

[EvilDragon]

Okay, looks like I need to redo it tomorrow... my changed layouts were not in the history.

Probably because it only changes the URL when you press save, but as I wasn't visiting a new website, the browser didn't put it into the history.

Damn.

 

[Saber]

Okay, looks like I need to redo it tomorrow... my changed layouts were not in the history.


Probably because it only changes the URL when you press save, but as I wasn't visiting a new website, the browser didn't put it into the history.


Damn.

After you've saved your changes, at the very bottom of the page will be a dialogue saying "Saved! Your saved layout can be accessed via this link". Click the bolded "this link" and it will bring you to the updated url.   

 

[Eight Bit]

Geez what an immense amount of text again. I made my proposals, now I 'll let you "wise men" figure out the final layout.


Greetings from changi airport Singapore, I'll see what has been decided on the flip side.

 

[_wb_]

 It would be a shame to accidentally damage/limit/neuter the Super key by putting a Fn layer key onto it though.

Maybe or maybe not as there are still plenty of keys on the primary level to use with the Super/Pyra/Logo key in addition to all the other modifiers and their combos at our disposal. It's doubtful ED would have a change of heart or the vision but it seems almost foolishness to use a precious key just for the Start Menu pop up and some shortcuts we never knew we were missing or most will ever need. Hopefully, a longer list of Super key shortcuts will show up, shortcuts that we don't already have with other modifiers.   

Why do people think that there is such a thing as "a list of shortcuts"? The point of modifiers is that each additional modifier doubles the number of logical keys. This can be a very nice thing, especially if the number of physical keys is limited. We don't have to look at existing lists of shortcuts though. Shortcuts can be modified, so that's not the point. The point is that we're trying to get as close as possible to the functionality of a normal full keyboard. And for quite a long time now, normal full keyboards have 4 modifiers: Shift, Ctrl, Alt, Super.

Extra modifiers mean more possibilities for extra functionality. For example, many modern keyboards have "media keys" now. I don't think that the Pyra should have those (we don't have room for them), but I do recognize that there could be use cases where they would be practical. That's why I have proposed to let Super + shoulder buttons act like media buttons by default (Play/Pause, Previous, Next, and a 4th one for I dunno what). Now this is a bit of a sacrifice, and it is not how modifiers usually work, since it means that Super+{RShift,RCtrl,RAlt,RFn}+<key> combinations are no longer possible. Super + Left modifier combos are still possible though.

My proposal is to let the Pyra-logo key (the key below START and SELECT) correspond to Left Super, and to let the lid close event correspond to Right Super. That way, it is easy for games and applications to detect that the lid is open or closed (just check if R_Super is down), and it means that the shoulder buttons automatically become media keys when the lid is closed. [or in general, even if you don't like/need media buttons, you can use this mechanism to let the shoulder buttons behave differently depending on whether the lid is open or closed]

Now if Fn+Super would be Esc, then this whole thing becomes much trickier. It would be a bad idea to let the lid be R_Super, because then suddenly one of the shoulder buttons would become an Esc key, very easy to press accidentally. Not a good idea. Also Super+Fn combinations become impossible (as opposed to just hard, like in my proposal where you would have to use Super+L_Fn). Unless you make the modifiers non-commutative, e.g. Fn+Super+Q = Esc+Q while Super+Fn+Q = Super+F2. But I don't like that.

 

[_wb_]

Had a look at the current layout. Seems good to me, except for a few choices I'd like to have detailed :


- The "B" button on the lower level. I'm kind of a symmetry freak, so is there any reason why ?

 
Symmetry?  The Pyra layout has -more- symmetry than a standard keyboard does.


On the Pyra:  Although the B key is not dead center of the bottom row, G is.  The line between V and B is the 'center line'.  Moving up the keyboard a center line is maintained and the row to row key offset is maintained in a proper line.

Pretty sure this was a reference to the gaming buttons, not the keyboard section. B and Y have the letter below the arrow symbol, A and X have the letter above the arrow symbol. This makes A and B look asymmetrical. I don't think this was intentional on ED's part though, it's just how EightBit had entered them into the layout editor.


I honestly doubt that it would appear that way on a finished unit. We're only deciding on what goes where here, here not the actual look of how the keys will be printed.


-Neelix

This shows once again how easy it is to confuse two things with the same label, like keyboard keys A B X Y and action buttons A B X Y.

I would propose to prominently label the action buttons with "Home", "End", "PgUp", "PgDn" (in text, not symbols). If there's a need to add the letters A B X Y for backwards compatibility with the Pandora (which I doubt), then it suffices to use small letters A B X Y.

Okay, looks like I need to redo it tomorrow... my changed layouts were not in the history.


Probably because it only changes the URL when you press save, but as I wasn't visiting a new website, the browser didn't put it into the history.


Damn.

Ouch, that sucks.

Meanwhile, I understand that time is limited to provide the print design. Do you have a template (SVG or something) for the actual layout of the printed labels? Perhaps we can help to design how the labels actually look. The font and positioning does matter. In my opinion, it should be a very bold sans serif font (I think that would work best with the backlighting), where the punctuation symbols are a bit larger and extra bold. The symbols should be arranged horizontally to fit the shape of the keys. The Pandora number keys are a good example.

 

[ible]

glad I asked a "dumb" question before we went too far forward .  i've had that same issue, and hoped my browser remembered the history, but no luck!

 

[Saber]

Now if Fn+Super would be Esc, then this whole thing becomes much trickier. It would be a bad idea to let the lid be R_Super, because then suddenly one of the shoulder buttons would become an Esc key, very easy to press accidentally. Not a good idea. Also Super+Fn combinations become impossible...

Is ED going to make the lid be R_Super? Haven't seen him lean toward such a decision, but my proposition above if it wasn't obvious is to give us an Escape key in a primary position(no, not as one of the four keys near the Power button as you and a few others still keep pining for) but at where Super is now.

I'm well aware another modifier will open the doors to new functionality and shortcuts as yet imagined, but I cannot fathom yet what we'd get from it that we don't already have with other modifier combos. For the jury though, I'm not opposed having Super as primary with no Fn value and Escape at Fn + q as my layouts show.

 

[comradekingu]

Fn+Q, with Fn bottom right and Q almost top left, if you dont use shoulders, ties up your hands at almost the worst imaginable position.

It is not a place where escape should be, since it isn't expected.

Along with this, makes it a usability error:

It is in a place where if you try to write a - you are one button away from missing it, and accidental ESC.

It is in a place where if you try to do F1 you are one button away from missing it, and accidental ESC.

It is in a place where if you try to do F2 you are one button away from missing it, and accidental ESC.

It is in a place where if you try to do { you are one button away from missing it, and accidental ESC. (this kills the coding)

It is a place where if you try to write a big Q, you are one button away from missing shift, and accidental ESC.

Ctrl+Esc is a IBM-compatible shortcut for bringing up the menu. If both ctrl and esc is not to be found in an expected position, that is worse, if used by shoulders, it requires an extra shoulder.

On chromebooks, (which have no super) it brings up the task manager with shift+esc.

It also makes the otherwise possible combo, Fn+Esc, or Fn+Q if you like to think of it that way into just Esc, so less possibility there.

 

[_wb_]

Now if Fn+Super would be Esc, then this whole thing becomes much trickier. It would be a bad idea to let the lid be R_Super, because then suddenly one of the shoulder buttons would become an Esc key, very easy to press accidentally. Not a good idea. Also Super+Fn combinations become impossible...

Is ED going to make the lid be R_Super? Haven't seen him lean toward such a decision, but my proposition above if it wasn't obvious is to give us an Escape key in a primary position(no, not as one of the four keys near the Power button as you and a few others still keep pining for) but at where Super is now.

I'm well aware another modifier will open the doors to new functionality and shortcuts as yet imagined, but I cannot fathom yet what we'd get from it that we don't already have with other modifier combos. For the jury though, I'm not opposed having Super as primary with no Fn value and Escape at Fn + q as my layouts show.

I don't know if the lid will emit a keycode (it doesn't on the Pandora), this is just a proposal.

If the Pyra-Logo key is not going to be an actual Super modifier (because it becomes Esc with Fn), then please don't give it that keycode, but some other (non-standard) keycode that is exclusively used to pop up the main menu. That would be a waste though.

 

[Saber]

Fn+Q, with Fn bottom right and Q almost top left, if you dont use shoulders, ties up your hands at almost the worst imaginable position.

...

It is a place where if you try to write a big Q, you are one button away from missing shift, and accidental ESC.

Several people have said Fn + q is an easy combination to remember but not at risk to accidental pressing on their Pandoras. You're right about it being different from where we are used to it on full size keyboards and I do wish it was distanced away, but not too far, from the other keyboard keys especially the numbers and letters. 

Now if Fn+Super would be Esc, then this whole thing becomes much trickier. It would be a bad idea to let the lid be R_Super, because then suddenly one of the shoulder buttons would become an Esc key, very easy to press accidentally. Not a good idea. Also Super+Fn combinations become impossible...

Is ED going to make the lid be R_Super? Haven't seen him lean toward such a decision, but my proposition above if it wasn't obvious is to give us an Escape key in a primary position(no, not as one of the four keys near the Power button as you and a few others still keep pining for) but at where Super is now.

I'm well aware another modifier will open the doors to new functionality and shortcuts as yet imagined, but I cannot fathom yet what we'd get from it that we don't already have with other modifier combos. For the jury though, I'm not opposed having Super as primary with no Fn value and Escape at Fn + q as my layouts show.

I don't know if the lid will emit a keycode (it doesn't on the Pandora), this is just a proposal.

If the Pyra-Logo key is not going to be an actual Super modifier (because it becomes Esc with Fn), then please don't give it that keycode, but some other (non-standard) keycode that is exclusively used to pop up the main menu. That would be a waste though.

I agree it would be a waste to use the Super keycode if that key is only used for the Start Menu.

There is another concern I have though about using this Super key as a modifier and that is it's location is dead center, which is great for one and done keys like Escape and Menu popup, but not an easy button to have to hold down for a length of time to initiate shortcut combos. Others can agree to how enjoyable it is to hold the Start(Alt) or Select(Control) button down with one of the keyboard letters. A bit of a stretch. Some of us don't have super long digits. 

 

[comradekingu]

Esc at Fn+q isnt closer, because you have to travel the extra distance with the other thumb over to FN, and back from non-ideal position. And its otherwise more complex since it requires the use of shoulders.

You have traded simplicity for complexity. And there is also the potential of forgetting which shoulder is which, or that they do something, in turn leading to more accidental Esc.

All I could find from vi/vim users was this, which suggests top left is best, and that Fn+q is sub-par.

 

[rygD]

glad I asked a "dumb" question before we went too far forward .  i've had that same issue, and hoped my browser remembered the history, but no luck!

I tried asking a couple times so that we could see what he was working with.  I guess I wasn't clear enough.

Fn+Q, with Fn bottom right and Q almost top left, if you dont use shoulders, ties up your hands at almost the worst imaginable position.

It is not a place where escape should be, since it isn't expected.

I never have a problem hitting Escape on the Pandora keyboard.   Top left corner is where most people expect it...  I agree that there are is the risk of unintentionally hitting it, however I think that risk is reduced compared to Pandora due to the backlight.  With escape in the gaming control area there seems to be a greater chance of hitting it by accident while playing a game and trying to hit the key/button above it (remember, the modifier to bring it out is one of the shoulder gaming buttons).

Sorry for the longish post.