Current Keyboard Layout


Between what i deem toy keyboards, and real keyboards, are the reasons stated in the middle of my argument.

The point of which is to not make something gimped, as mobile keyboards often are, just because its on a mobile device.

Same reason you wouldn't want a laptop keyboard on a desktop.
 
Sadly the difference between mobile and laptop, is a lot bigger than laptop and desktop.

That being said, lenovo is the most loathed and ridiculed company in terms of keyboards. Which have now understood that what they ruined, was better.

Every single thing they do is probably profitable, that does not make it as good as it could have been. We should learn from that. Looking back, the 1992 700c is still better than anything they make now, PC110, while otherwise good, was a japan only affair. This is how far removed they are from usability. This is almost good.

The market is bigger for real keyboards, because that covers everyone. The opposite excludes those who need a real one.
 
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Clutter is stuff where it doesnt belong too, if you want F-keys labled on numbers, F11 and F12 are out of place.


Putting symbols all over the typewriter-area is cluttered and non-standard.
Non-standard it may be, but hardly unprecedented, and on a keyboard this size it is necessary in order to provide the required functionality.

Check out these two professionally made compact keyboards. One made by HTC, the other by Nokia. Notice that in both cases every single letter key has another symbol on it.

compactkeyboards.png


-Neelix
These keyboards are fine. But they need symbols on all keys even without providing (labeled) F keys. The Pyra has enough keys to not require cluttering every key with symbols as demonstrated by various layouts in the keyboard threads unless you want to label lots of diacritics and dead keys which neither the Pandora nor any of your examples have. Therefore it is objectively quite possible to have a keyboard layout that is more convenient to use than the Pandora (or your examples) with less visual clutter. The relevant discussion should be whether more labeled symbols in unusual locations do provide enough additional 'text entry comfort' (compared to e.g. compose). I don't think so, but there may be valid arguments.

NB: one thing the HTC example does hint it is that numbers probably don't deserve primary keys unless you leterally have loads of them (even more than the Pyra has)
 
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Yes, and why no both, one language-layer with French diactrics where they are expected, support for all major european languages elsewhere, _and_ compose. And AltGr.

And full layout. People who use one already knows how it works, same for french diactrics on letters. Everyone else can forget about it and not suffer a penalty, no need to clutter.

Umm... and how would you make a real keyboard with less keys than a real keyboard?
Like this: http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16822-explaining-keyboard-layout-proposals-completely-updated-manual-for-ck-proposal/
I found this to most closely resemble what people expect a keyboard to be, made to work for the most people. Insight into why it isnt different, can be found here.
 
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These keyboards are fine. But they need symbols on all keys even without providing (labeled) F keys. The Pyra has enough keys to not require cluttering every key with symbols as demonstrated by various layouts in the keyboard threads unless you want to label lots of diacritics and dead keys which neither the Pandora nor any of your examples have. Therefore it is objectively quite possible to have a keyboard layout that is more convenient to use than the Pandora (or your examples) with less visual clutter. The relevant discussion should be whether more labeled symbols in unusual locations do provide enough additional 'text entry comfort' (compared to e.g. compose). I don't think so, but there may be valid arguments.
Sure... but those "uncluttered" layouts were achieved by putting some symbols on the shift+fn/meta layer, which ED has already (unfortunately) ruled out. (and even then they still had several letter keys which also had symbols) Without that, even if you populate only the bare minimum of useful symbols you still end up with only a very few keys that don't end up with a secondary symbol, not enough to really avoid the "cluttered" look.

Don't forget that the Pandora itself has a secondary symbol on almost every key, and the Pyra will only have a small number of additional buttons to play with in comparison.

-Neelix
 
I didnt do that because its one of the things a lot of people have difficulty grasping.
As for Shift+AltGr, some thing are meant to be on there, like ¡ and ¿.

To use ISO_Level5_Shift for a layer, like NEO does, is preferable, so also technicality possible without the use of Fn.
 
Same reason you wouldn't want a laptop keyboard on a desktop.
Well some people think there is a market for it..
 http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/Lenovo-ThinkPad-Compact-USB-Keyboard-with-TrackPoint-keyboard/3161123.aspx
I'm very picky on keyboards. Although my favorite is still the mechanical PS/2 keyboards from the late 80s, they're no longer considered civil in a workplace environment - the tactile click sounds like machine gun fire in a quiet office.

Instead I've started using these - and they're fantastic.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823662007&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-Keyboards-_-N82E16823662007&gclid=CMX4j7Psy8YCFQiTaQod2y4K7Q&gclsrc=aw.ds

Unfortunately they are becoming harder to find.

So - thank you for the link to that one. I may have to buy one and take it for a test drive. Though I understand that Lenovo's current chicklet style keyboards are not what the old Thinkpad ones that my current keyboards are based off of were/are.
 
Well, without reading the instructions, you wouldn't even know how to press F11 and F12.

You MIGHT figure out how to press F1 - F10 without reading it up, but I still find it weird that it's missing.

Also, Fn is in a very hard to reach area, same for ESC. No brightness buttons can be found (and I use those a lot, because it's nice to change brightness while gaming).

There are also keys missing (I can't find °'§, for example) and, well, we got a double-width space-bar, so one of those two buttons down there would need to move as well.

True, it's uncluttered, and it looks really clean - but it's too limited, in my opinion.

It's the complete difference to what Grench suggested first: It was also very well thought of and had a maximum functionality, but was too much for a normal user.

This one is clean and well thought of as well, but it's clean because it's sacrificing keys and functions.
 
Don't forget that the Pandora itself has a secondary symbol on almost every key, and the Pyra will only have a small number of additional buttons to play with in comparison.


-Neelix
The Pyra has an additional row's worth of new keys (2 shoulders, 2 action buttons, 5 keys above the nubs, 2 more in the second row). with http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/63a9240e3ce4244b752cf37544d036a1 I count 16 (main keyboard area) keys without Fn-symbols, it already has several hardware toggles, labeled SysRq, PrtScr, Break, and an additional modifier in the main keyboard area (compared to the Pandora). It is missing 3 currency symbols (compared to the Pandora) and there are 9 keys with Fn+Shift symbols. It's not difficult to imagine an uncluttered layout even with the arbitrary restriction of no Fn+Shift labels.


edit: fixed negation making the last sentence unintellegible:)
 
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Yes, and why no both, one language-layer with French diactrics where they are expected, support for all major european languages elsewhere, _and_ compose. And AltGr.

And full layout. People who use one already knows how it works, same for french diactrics on letters. Everyone else can forget about it and not suffer a penalty, no need to clutter.

Umm... and how would you make a real keyboard with less keys than a real keyboard?
Like this: http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16822-explaining-keyboard-layout-proposals-completely-updated-manual-for-ck-proposal/
I found this to most closely resemble what people expect a keyboard to be, made to work for the most people. Insight into why it isnt different, can be found here.
So we're back to fantasy land.

The majority of the English symbols set is unlabeled and on an AltGr layer.

A complete misunderstanding of what AltGr is mechanically (right Alt).

Four (4!) Alt keys - I count two left Alt and two right Alt/AltGr.

Space bar is one key wide. Like it or not, that ship has sailed.

AltGr functionality is not 'clean'. Seems to be getting confused with Fn type capabilities.

I have no idea how to get a pipe | on that keyboard. It's labeled on the 1 button, but shift+1 is !, AltGr + 1 is ¡. So HOW is that 4th symbol of | on the 1 key activated?

I see a lonely FN button up in the top center collection - I thought your whole point was that Fn wasn't needed - or is THAT how you propose to get to your 4th layer?

Lack of printing makes your keyboard look simple. That first impression is VERY deceiving. Lack of labeling and standard expected functionality makes it VERY confusing in actual use.
 
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Don't forget that the Pandora itself has a secondary symbol on almost every key, and the Pyra will only have a small number of additional buttons to play with in comparison.


-Neelix

The Pyra has an additional row's worth of new keys (2 shoulders, 2 action buttons, 5 keys above the nubs, 2 more in the second row). with http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/63a9240e3ce4244b752cf37544d036a1 I count 16 (main keyboard area) keys without Fn-symbols, it already has several hardware toggles, labeled SysRq, PrtScr, Break, and an additional modifier in the main keyboard area (compared to the Pandora). It is missing 3 currency symbols (compared to the Pandora) and there are 9 keys with Fn+Shift symbols. It's not difficult to imagine an uncluttered layout even without the arbitrary restriction of no Fn+Shift labels.
Ahem... You know that you're using 9 keys with Fn+Shift in that layout to generate 4 symbols per key, right?
 
Well, without reading the instructions, you wouldn't even know how to press F11 and F12.

You MIGHT figure out how to press F1 - F10 without reading it up, but I still find it weird that it's missing.

Also, Fn is in a very hard to reach area, same for ESC. No brightness buttons can be found (and I use those a lot, because it's nice to change brightness while gaming).

There are also keys missing (I can't find °'§, for example) and, well, we got a double-width space-bar, so one of those two buttons down there would need to move as well.

True, it's uncluttered, and it looks really clean - but it's too limited, in my opinion.

It's the complete difference to what Grench suggested first: It was also very well thought of and had a maximum functionality, but was too much for a normal user.

This one is clean and well thought of as well, but it's clean because it's sacrificing keys and functions.
When did you become Goldilocks?

Grench's keyboard is too much.

Comeradekingu's keyboard is too little.

Eventually you'll find one that's, 'Just right'.  Then those stupid bears will come home and start bitchin' about how the chairs are rearranged, the porridge is tainted or gone and the beds are a mess.
 
Well, without reading the instructions, you wouldn't even know how to press F11 and F12.
But after having been informed, for the people who use them, I find it easy to remember. Please try all layouts on regular people and pay close attention to how much can be communicated without explanation. A lot of things fail on a very basic level.

You MIGHT figure out how to press F1 - F10 without reading it up, but I still find it weird that it's missing.
That is only if you are advanced enough to need F-keys, but no, that fails. However the concept is very much working, its used on 60% keyboards, where the F-label is often printed on the side of the key, out of view as secondary (same as dell laptops), or not at all. A lot of keyboards today have no F-keys, like Chromebooks. Weird, but thats how it is. I suppose todays mediakeys are yesterdays keyboards with F-keys that dont have G-keys.

Also, Fn is in a very hard to reach area, same for ESC.
Fn is used for far less things on this layout, with not so frequent use, so lets be fair. Having them, and especially Esc, out of the way, is halfway a very good thing.


No accidental ESC, Alt+F4 or Ctrl+alt+F*

No brightness buttons can be found (and I use those a lot, because it's nice to change brightness while gaming).
I didn't think anyone did, but ok, for those that do, lets add that, Fn+↑ is brightness in increments upwards Fn+↓ is increments downwards. Another fail, but once you know about it I estimate it works.

Fn+Power to bring up the power-menu, rather than mousing to it, and controlling everything from there, is better than trying to remember what 4 keys controlling a plethora of functionality does. Two toggles on the same button sucks.

There are also keys missing (I can't find °'§, for example) and, well, we got a double-width space-bar, so one of those two buttons down there would need to move as well.
' is on AltGr+5, you can type it with one combo-click since AltGr is the bottommost columnkey. ° and § are also missing on non-german keyboards, hadnt seen that complaint either, but lets add that.

How often are they used, and what for. § is a paragraph i know. You could keep it in ctrl+v if you write a legal document/LaTex. ° as diactric (ring) is the * according to US convention, as the degree symbol its at

AltGr+R

Is shift+AltGr+2  3 ok for § ?, same as german position (3). There are otherwise open slots on the AltGr layer.

Is the mold made? Otherwise please reconsider the space, and hopefully you will come down on the side of the great majority of those who have worked on layouts. Big space is as useless as the big return-key from the example earlier.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/c8b099d954b66ed7e0ae0a25d67e5ac7is the difference one key makes. You lose a lot of combo-clicks, you separate functionality, and its worse for international support.

Most importantly you have to hurdle to get from dot to enter. Hurdling, as coined by Dvorak, is to needlessly go from one key, over another, as a result from it being in often used combo/sequence. Every one of the lines in this post end with a enter dot. More explanation under space here.

True, it's uncluttered, and it looks really clean - but it's too limited, in my opinion.
It has the most flexibility modularity and function of all the layouts. Only for typing F-keys it is worse, but that is not a free trade at all.

Real buttons, doing one thing, full layout, ability to go AZERTY or make additional keymats, US-diactrics efficiency. The proof is in the pudding, try it.

It's the complete difference to what Grench suggested first: It was also very well thought of and had a maximum functionality, but was too much for a normal user.


This one is clean and well thought of as well, but it's clean because it's sacrificing keys and functions.
You get only the problems you don't know about. Something that works for more people, that saw the light last september, or something made, or that changes inconsistently every week, or the last week.
 
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Same reason you wouldn't want a laptop keyboard on a desktop.
Well some people think there is a market for it..

 http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/Lenovo-ThinkPad-Compact-USB-Keyboard-with-TrackPoint-keyboard/3161123.aspx
I'm very picky on keyboards. Although my favorite is still the mechanical PS/2 keyboards from the late 80s, they're no longer considered civil in a workplace environment - the tactile click sounds like machine gun fire in a quiet office.


Instead I've started using these - and they're fantastic.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823662007&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-Keyboards-_-N82E16823662007&gclid=CMX4j7Psy8YCFQiTaQod2y4K7Q&gclsrc=aw.ds


Unfortunately they are becoming harder to find.


So - thank you for the link to that one. I may have to buy one and take it for a test drive. Though I understand that Lenovo's current chicklet style keyboards are not what the old Thinkpad ones that my current keyboards are based off of were/are.
A few years past I bought a Thanko Silent Keyboard and Mouse. Good quality products and key travel is similar to the old click-clacking keyboards but with the ninja stealthiness. Noticed Ebay has one set for dirt cheap too.  :)
 
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Same reason you wouldn't want a laptop keyboard on a desktop.
Well some people think there is a market for it..

 http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/Lenovo-ThinkPad-Compact-USB-Keyboard-with-TrackPoint-keyboard/3161123.aspx
I'm very picky on keyboards. Although my favorite is still the mechanical PS/2 keyboards from the late 80s, they're no longer considered civil in a workplace environment - the tactile click sounds like machine gun fire in a quiet office.


Instead I've started using these - and they're fantastic.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823662007&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-Keyboards-_-N82E16823662007&gclid=CMX4j7Psy8YCFQiTaQod2y4K7Q&gclsrc=aw.ds


Unfortunately they are becoming harder to find.


So - thank you for the link to that one. I may have to buy one and take it for a test drive. Though I understand that Lenovo's current chicklet style keyboards are not what the old Thinkpad ones that my current keyboards are based off of were/are.
A few years past I bought a Thanko Silent Keyboard and Mouse. Good quality products and key travel is similar to the old click-clacking keyboards but with the ninja stealthiness. Noticed Ebay has one set for dirt cheap too.  :)
Sorry, but I would pay money to replace any keyboard I encountered that had a layout remotely like that one.

I bought a couple of these back when Overstock had them.  Probably the best keyboard investment I ever made.  I keep one at work and one at home.  And no, I don't speak Chinese and the 4 symbols per key, 3 of which are in other colors with symbols I don't recognize does not bother me a bit.

http://www.overstock.com/Electronics/Lenovo-31P8975-Thinkplus-Chinese-Keyboard/4416042/product.html

I also picked up a pair with Taiwanese markings in the compact variety without the external number pad.

What makes these so dramatically different from the one you linked above is that all of them are properly marked with the US standard layout AND have \ above the Enter key and have the US symbol mapping of P[]\ then L;'Enter then M,./

I touch type at the speed of thought.  I would never buy a full sized keyboard that doesn't work this way.  On a thumb based device?  OK, much more flexibility on that.
 
There are a lot of vocal people here, but perhaps we (Grench, comradekingu, _wb_, myself) are the minority arguing for esoteric features.  

In previous keyboard polls, _wb_ has done extremely well for a good variety of reasons, and I'm sad to see little-to-no feedback from ED on his layouts.
 
There are a lot of vocal people here, but perhaps we (Grench, comradekingu, _wb_, myself) are the minority arguing for esoteric features.  

In previous keyboard polls, _wb_ has done extremely well for a good variety of reasons, and I'm sad to see little-to-no feedback from ED on his layouts.
Very true.  I built a 2" wide Swiss Army Knife complete with compass and a screw extractor.  CK built a quite elegant butter knife.  _wb_ built something 'in between', though I would say it's closer to my end of the spectrum than CK's.

The issues I have with the _wb_ layouts are likely the same things that others like as features.  F1-F10 on number keys and F11-F12 elsewhere instead of in a contiguous row, Fn and Shift on the left side on both the shoulders and main keyboard area, that G=Greek and M=Math thing, keys labeled with words in the main keyboard area (messy)...  However, he nails basic functionality quite well.

I would like to see where ED lands on those though.
 
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