Current Keyboard Layout


When did you become Goldilocks?
Weeell... my hair is a bit dark... and not many locks.... but at least it's long, so I'm getting there ;)

Eventually you'll find one that's, 'Just right'.  Then those stupid bears will come home and start bitchin' about how the chairs are rearranged, the porridge is tainted or gone and the beds are a mess.
I know. There will always be a horde that doesn't like the keyboard you choose.

Regardless WHICH one you choose.

It's pretty much hopeless :)

Well, without reading the instructions, you wouldn't even know how to press F11 and F12.
But after having been informed, for the people who use them, I find it easy to remember. Please try all layouts on regular people and pay close attention to how much can be communicated without explanation. A lot of things fail on a very basic level.
The last thing I want is people needing to find out which key is where.

I already learned that nearly no one read the instruction manual or quickstart guide on the Pandora... a lot of customers actually didn't know Pandora and Powerswitch can be used for a hard reset or that Pandora button opens the menu.

So everything should be printed on as cleanly as possible.

Also, Fn is in a very hard to reach area, same for ESC.
Fn is used for far less things on this layout, with not so frequent use, so lets be fair. Having them, and especially Esc, out of the way, is halfway a very good thing.
Well, okay, you use AltGr for most modifiers, but then again, AltGr is where the menu button should be in my opinion (I don't want to open the startmenu using the nubs or touch, I always press the Pandora key on the Pandora).

No accidental ESC, Alt+F4 or Ctrl+alt+F*
Yes, but also annoying far when you need it, e.g. when using vi. 

There are also keys missing (I can't find °'§, for example) and, well, we got a double-width space-bar, so one of those two buttons down there would need to move as well.
' is on AltGr+5, you can type it with one combo-click since AltGr is the bottommost columnkey. ° and § are also missing on non-german keyboards, hadnt seen that complaint either, but lets add that.
 Be careful: There are two ' ' on the keyboard that look the same with most layouts (those two were different keys, really!), but they have different uses.

How often are they used, and what for. § is a paragraph i know. You could keep it in ctrl+v if you write a legal document/LaTex.
That would still mean that you need to get it from somewhere, as you need to do ctrl+c from somewhere.

We got enough keys, so at least the standard keyboard keys should be somewhere.

Is the mold made? Otherwise please reconsider the space, and hopefully you will come down on the side of the great majority of those who have worked on layouts. Big space is as useless as the big return-key from the example earlier.
No further comment, we discussed about the double-space key a couple of times already, every single time with the same argument.

I think even a poll had been made and most wanted a double-space key. 

True, it's uncluttered, and it looks really clean - but it's too limited, in my opinion.
It has the most flexibility modularity and function of all the layouts. Only for typing F-keys it is worse, but that is not a free trade at all.
It's missing keys compared to other layouts.

Missing keys do not lead to a better functional keyboard.

BTW: I've rarely met anyone who thought the Pandora keyboard was cluttered because the symbols were on the keys.

That's common with mobile keyboards. It's a fact they got less keys than a real keyboard, so it's clear you need these symbols on normal keys.

I haven't met anyone who found this confusing.

Real buttons, doing one thing, full layout, ability to go AZERTY or make additional keymats, US-diactrics efficiency. The proof is in the pudding, try it.

It's the complete difference to what Grench suggested first: It was also very well thought of and had a maximum functionality, but was too much for a normal user.

This one is clean and well thought of as well, but it's clean because it's sacrificing keys and functions.
You get only the problems you don't know about. Something that works for more people, that saw the light last september, or something made, or that changes inconsistently every week, or the last week.
 Well, I could say the same: Why are you so sure people want to sacrifice symbols just to make the keyboard look more clean?

You claim this is the best possible keyboard layout here, and you try to imply that most people will think the same if they only tried it.

But how do can you imply this?

I know whatever layout I choose, some people will moan.

I think the best one we can choose is somewhere in between everything. It can't be perfect for any use case, but it shouldn't be terrible for an use case.

So whether you're working with vi or nano, are typing legal documents or doing spreadsheets, are coding in C++ or Linux shell: It should be usable for everyone. Not perfect (as that's not possible), but at least not awkward as well.

None of my mobile phones ever had a usable keyboard for a Linux terminal, btw.

I tried to use SSH on them for some remote administration, but it was simply horrible, as mobile phone keyboards are only suited for writing short messages.

That's what I want to prevent.

The keyboard should at least be usable for most common use cases.

In previous keyboard polls, _wb_ has done extremely well for a good variety of reasons, and I'm sad to see little-to-no feedback from ED on his layouts.
If you followed my changes to the keyboard layout, you might've seen I did base a few recent changes on his ideas.

One thing I'm thinking about is whether to put the F-Keys on the number rows or not... it feels more natural, except for F11 and F12, of course.

But then again, having F11 and F12 on the second row has never been a problem on the Pandora.
 
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NO MOUSE BUTTONS ON SHOULDER BUTTONS BY DEFAULT.  Caps Lock is unimportant).
Did you have Caps Lock enabled here?
No, and it was a thumb keyboard I was typing on.  I almost never intentionally use caps lock, and it is irritating when I turn it on by accident. (This is part of why I prefer keyboards that have Ctrl where it belongs and caps lock on the lower left corner.)
I would also prefer period and comma on the right. Not sure if I said that.

If you followed my changes to the keyboard layout
Where is this (or is it not an actual layout, and is just what was discussed here)? I asked yesterday so that I can try to offer suggestions.
 
There will always be a horde that doesn't like the keyboard you choose.


Regardless WHICH one you choose.


It's pretty much hopeless :)
There are English users, and there are international users. For the former efficiency is key, same for the latter, and it also means having full layout. It is not esoteric.

Well, without reading the instructions, you wouldn't even know how to press F11 and F12.

But after having been informed, for the people who use them, I find it easy to remember. Please try all layouts on regular people and pay close attention to how much can be communicated without explanation. A lot of things fail on a very basic level.
The last thing I want is people needing to find out which key is where.


I already learned that nearly no one read the instruction manual or quickstart guide on the Pandora... a lot of customers actually didn't know Pandora and Powerswitch can be used for a hard reset or that Pandora button opens the menu.


So everything should be printed on as cleanly as possible.
True, especially the shift and ctrl on shoulders fail, because its not expected. Holding the swedish-button/swede to power off is atleast analogous to the impulse switch of regular PCs.

Consider that the more things you print, the less clear it becomes, we all agreed on that except for grench. If you take things out of alternate graphics, some layouts actually have more prints than a regular keyboard...!?


Same with needlessly printing foreign symbols. You remove this need when things are where they are supposed to be, rather than also moved. Moving things, is very detrimental. Because people know where things are supposed to be, this can not be changed.

Things meant to be hidden also are hidden in incompatible ways, the more you observe this fact, the less you create problems by trying to re-arrange things visually.

Also, Fn is in a very hard to reach area, same for ESC.
Fn is used for far less things on this layout, with not so frequent use, so lets be fair. Having them, and especially Esc, out of the way, is halfway a very good thing.

Well, okay, you use AltGr for most modifiers, but then again, AltGr is where the menu button should be in my opinion (I don't want to open the startmenu using the nubs or touch, I always press the Pandora key on the Pandora).
I dont, because i didnt know that was a thing. I see how it works, and i see how it fails. Its not special enough to create a thing for.

The most people use AltGr as a modifier to do thirdlevelshift, nobody uses Fn or meta, or the like. The nubs werent good on the pandora, so less of a issue with new nubs. I think rightclicking the desktop is the sweet-spot between speed and less waste, because your hands are not hovering keyboard when you are "using the desktop". The nubs are the most central and self-explanatory things, use them.

No accidental ESC, Alt+F4 or Ctrl+alt+F*

Yes, but also annoying far when you need it, e.g. when using vi.
No moreso than typing a number on the pandora, dont see an issue. Having it in the position it is expected, for everyone, is key.
There are also keys missing (I can't find °'§, for example) and, well, we got a double-width space-bar, so one of those two buttons down there would need to move as well.
' is on AltGr+5, you can type it with one combo-click since AltGr is the bottommost columnkey. ° and § are also missing on non-german keyboards, hadnt seen that complaint either, but lets add that.
Be careful: There are two ' ' on the keyboard that look the same with most layouts (those two were different keys, really!), but they have different uses.

How often are they used, and what for. § is a paragraph i know. You could keep it in ctrl+v if you write a legal document/LaTex.
That would still mean that you need to get it from somewhere, as you need to do ctrl+c from somewhere.


We got enough keys, so at least the standard keyboard keys should be somewhere.
Shift+altGr+3 and you got it. If you use shoulders thats easy enough. I could look up where it is on international-altGr mapping.

§ is not a standard keyboard key on anything beside a german keyboard, which is why it isnt standard. All things considered, having it on the Alternate graphics layer is how it usually is.

You dont need front-tick, because as a diactric it is  ' (apostrophe).

Is the mold made? Otherwise please reconsider the space, and hopefully you will come down on the side of the great majority of those who have worked on layouts. Big space is as useless as the big return-key from the example earlier.

No further comment, we discussed about the double-space key a couple of times already, every single time with the same argument.


I think even a poll had been made and most wanted a double-space key.
That was when the implications weren't known, nor stated, which is a basic flaw.  If you do a poll now, you will get different results. Just as the people looking into it overwhelmingly decides against doublespeace being a good idea. What can be more important and telling?

Consider the opposite, is anything meaningful lost with single wide space, no colours to signify position, a real AltGr.  All of these are inclusive examples, the people wanting the opposite, are fine with the alternative, but doing each of them rubs someone the wrong way enough to have them cancel the sale. As you have said, make it a compromise, that works for the most people. Excluding people to design-by-comitee is a quick way to make it compromised instead. Something that is bad at everything.

I have been wrong about a lot of things concerning keyboard layouts, if you don't do the work you don't get the benefits, and if you do, you are bound to learn from mistakes. If it was always the obvious and things magically fit together, it would never change.

What you are right about is that all people cant be fully happy at all times, because it cant be all things all the time. There are drawbacks to even good things, making them a consideration, a trade.

Wide noncentral space is trading something as vain as a doublewide enter when used with two thumbs, for a whole slew of drawbacks. There are no shortcuts to figuring this out fully, it can only, and has, been established on account of research. Refusing to look into it is the opposite of design. The hard work is done.

True, it's uncluttered, and it looks really clean - but it's too limited, in my opinion.
It has the most flexibility modularity and function of all the layouts. Only for typing F-keys it is worse, but that is not a free trade at all.
It's missing keys compared to other layouts.


Missing keys do not lead to a better functional keyboard.
It has more usable keys, thats what a functional layout is. Below a certain treshold, depending on language, it seizes to be functional.

BTW: I've rarely met anyone who thought the Pandora keyboard was cluttered because the symbols were on the keys.


That's common with mobile keyboards. It's a fact they got less keys than a real keyboard, so it's clear you need these symbols on normal keys.


I haven't met anyone who found this confusing.

Real buttons, doing one thing, full layout, ability to go AZERTY or make additional keymats, US-diactrics efficiency. The proof is in the pudding, try it.
The pandora keyboard is in a league of its own, because it doesn't have enough buttons to be any better. Try showing it to some of the people who didn't buy one, those are the silent majority here.

The second you take real buttons away, replace AltGr with symbols all over the place, you have to start looking for things that are found in the wrong places, with the wrong modifier, that is confusing, and tedious.

In design, nobody screams out the perfect solution just because they have a problem. When you show people the solution, and they apply their assumptions to how it works, you have solved it.

There arent many people like me, and you havent met me either, don't assume I'm not pedantic because the people you meet are different.

It's the complete difference to what Grench suggested first: It was also very well thought of and had a maximum functionality, but was too much for a normal user.


This one is clean and well thought of as well, but it's clean because it's sacrificing keys and functions.
You get only the problems you don't know about. Something that works for more people, that saw the light last september, or something made, or that changes inconsistently every week, or the last week.

Well, I could say the same: Why are you so sure people want to sacrifice symbols just to make the keyboard look more clean?


You claim this is the best possible keyboard layout here, and you try to imply that most people will think the same if they only tried it.


But how do can you imply this?


I know whatever layout I choose, some people will moan.


I think the best one we can choose is somewhere in between everything. It can't be perfect for any use case, but it shouldn't be terrible for an use case.


So whether you're working with vi or nano, are typing legal documents or doing spreadsheets, are coding in C++ or Linux shell: It should be usable for everyone. Not perfect (as that's not possible), but at least not awkward as well.


None of my mobile phones ever had a usable keyboard for a Linux terminal, btw.


I tried to use SSH on them for some remote administration, but it was simply horrible, as mobile phone keyboards are only suited for writing short messages.


That's what I want to prevent.


The keyboard should at least be usable for most common use cases.
I am sure it is because I have tested it. On all sorts of people. As for the hands on. In my experience the TOHKBD works _exactly_ the same as it did in testing, and i didnt have a proto of that either.

Clean is your words, they are not mutually exclusive. To me and everyone else it looks like a keyboard. My priorities are efficiency, in one way or another. I boiled all relevant language layouts down to what they had in common, rather than take the easy road and try to shoehorn the pandoralayout to fit everyone. If you do that you have a different group moaning in turn.

Symbols all over the keyboard doesn't look like a regular keyboard, people start worrying, and they scrutinize. When you show them something basic, they assume it is, and accept.

On my full german 105key desktop keyboard, there are 37 symbols.  ( including ² ³ µ and ¦ (but its the same button as | which isnt printed,  no €)

There are 37 symbols on the proposal in firstpost 32 in mine. The difference is § € ° ´ ¨

§  Not common outside of German layout, makes it look foreign to anyone else. Ample space to implement on alternate graphics layer where it belongs.

€ AltGr+e (standard)

°  Ok, i see your point. How much of a point is it? Its nowhere to be found on a US keyboard not even with international AltGr

´  See above

¨   should be " (which is included on both layouts).

Having brackets available, close to each other/natural position, with one click, in all of those cases, is very beneficial. The <> from ISO 105-key is nice, but not when / and \ is so far away. I agree 100% on the SSH, which is why I consider mobile keyboards to be a bit of a crux.


They all (?) suck because of this, relating to a lack of keys. Never the same on any, but never something to replicate, always something to _avoid_.

The only thing that doesn't suck, is the basics, and it has been the same since typewriters. You don't change anything if its not for the better. Applying hacks wholesale just because its problematic to do the default, is far removed from anything basic.

For language, they are most often unusable, and that is a much bigger use-case than any other put together. This still happens among the pandorians, and it makes me sad.
 
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Is there a link to the updated current keyboard?
 
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know whatever layout I choose, some people will moan. I think the best one we can choose is somewhere in between everything. It can't be perfect for any use case, but it shouldn't be terrible for an use case. So whether you're working with vi or nano, are typing legal documents or doing spreadsheets, are coding in C++ or Linux shell: It should be usable for everyone. Not perfect (as that's not possible), but at least not awkward as well. None of my mobile phones ever had a usable keyboard for a Linux terminal, btw. I tried to use SSH on them for some remote administration, but it was simply horrible, as mobile phone keyboards are only suited for writing short messages. That's what I want to prevent. The keyboard should at least be usable for most common use cases.
 

Quoted for great truth.
 
...

I know whatever layout I choose, some people will moan.
I think the best one we can choose is somewhere in between everything. It can't be perfect for any use case, but it shouldn't be terrible for an use case.


So whether you're working with vi or nano, are typing legal documents or doing spreadsheets, are coding in C++ or Linux shell: It should be usable for everyone. Not perfect (as that's not possible), but at least not awkward as well.

...
The layout shouldn’t be like an arranged marriage that we “can live with” as others have whispered. Every piece should have it’s shrewd reason for being, not because it fit where it did, or that it was apportioned from another layout(so we can stand in front of the fawning crowd in impartiality and pronounce it community designed), but because it was vital, and vitally placed.  

Also, something to keep in mind when deciding what's incorporated here is Compose + o + s (or s + o) is § and Compose + o + o is °. Section sign is probably useful but the degree symbol is most assuredly not(unless you’re really into meteorology). A comprehensive list of Compose key sequences is located here.

EvilDragon, it’s believed Acute is a dead key in your layout but what of Grave or Circumflex? Will these dead diacritics be encountered in your finality? For Backtick, how does one turn this into dead Grave? Shift + Fn? Many international users will find the inclusion of Grave and Circumflex pleasing for their native languages and your stance concerning and considering them beforehand appreciated.  :)  
 
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I think that, if the F-keys were (mostly) moved onto the number row, then Fn+TAB would be a better ESCAPE than Fn+SUPER. It would be less awkward to use for VIM and for DOS games.

I am also really against having backspace on an action button, but I am not sure what would be a better place, aside from the top-right of the main keyboard area, above return (it could be Fn+RETURN, but that would probably cause too many user-errors: backsp--oh, damn, I submitted the wrong name instead!).

Question: While I can see why it would be a bad idea to have Fn-combinations for modifiers like SHIFT, CTRL, ALT etc. (and SUPER, come to think of it...), I am not convinced that there would be a downside to having Fn-combinations for the action buttons. That would add 6 (or 10! if including the directional buttons) more keys to be used. Perhaps Fn+LEFT would be a good place for ESCAPE? Assuming that Fn+DIRECTION would not be acceptable for HOME, END, PGUP and PGDOWN, Fn+DOWN could be CAPSLOCK, Fn+RIGHT could be MENU (as in the right-click alternative on keyboards) and FN-UP could be SCRLOCK. Then there are 6 more. Someone must have thought of this before, so what is the problem?
 
If "fn+<game_button>" is something then you would get that something. If you press L2 and Left, something very likely to happen while playing a game, you don't want it to produce ESC keycode as well, you just want L2 and Left. Same goes for all the other game buttons.
 
The topic is about the keyboard LAYOUT, but since there is also talk about more complex combinations which also depends on the hardware...


How many simultaneous keypresses can the Pyra register correctly? Are the gaming buttons and the keyboard on the same matrix? How much rollover does it have? Any (key) ghosting, etc.?
 
I think that, if the F-keys were (mostly) moved onto the number row, then Fn+TAB would be a better ESCAPE than Fn+SUPER. It would be less awkward to use for VIM and for DOS games.


I am also really against having backspace on an action button, but I am not sure what would be a better place, aside from the top-right of the main keyboard area, above return (it could be Fn+RETURN, but that would probably cause too many user-errors: backsp--oh, damn, I submitted the wrong name instead!).


Question: While I can see why it would be a bad idea to have Fn-combinations for modifiers like SHIFT, CTRL, ALT etc. (and SUPER, come to think of it...), I am not convinced that there would be a downside to having Fn-combinations for the action buttons. That would add 6 (or 10! if including the directional buttons) more keys to be used. Perhaps Fn+LEFT would be a good place for ESCAPE? Assuming that Fn+DIRECTION would not be acceptable for HOME, END, PGUP and PGDOWN, Fn+DOWN could be CAPSLOCK, Fn+RIGHT could be MENU (as in the right-click alternative on keyboards) and FN-UP could be SCRLOCK. Then there are 6 more. Someone must have thought of this before, so what is the problem?
So you know Fn + any direction on the D-pad was poorly received in an earlier(and lengthy) discussion. It was decided Fn + gaming controls was a bad notion.  :mellow:

As for Escape, Fn + Tab was also ill-received since Tab is a high traffic key and Escape could be prone to accidental presses there. Same could be said of putting Escape under one of the numbers, which are frequently pushed. If not at Fn + q which is my preference in my layouts, a centered Escape key, where Super/Menu is primary currently, and not under a Fn combo is the only other just alternative with Super/Menu put under Fn + q. 
 
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Fn+anything only stops working when you have Fn on the shoulders.

While having escape where tab is, would be beneficial to vi users, it would also mean escape and tab are switched in regard to where you would expect to find them.

Since vi users is a small usecase, albeit big for them, it doesnt help to make it a in-between. You might just aswell make a custom combo, like shift+tab to do it. And the vi users are technical enough to do so.

Problem solved.
 
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Is there a link to the updated current keyboard?
I'm always updating the layout directly, so the link shouldn't change.
That can't be right or something is broken.  The layout linked to in the first post is:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/37af15095b2aeedd169b0b5beb3bc9a6

It is still broken.

Having Fn+Super = Esc directly limits Super (which is a modifier key) from being applied to anything that otherwise lives on the Fn layer.  Nothing but Super can live on the Super key - much like a shift, alt, ctrl or Fn key cannot have an additional Fn definition.

Pause and break are the same key on a normal keyboard.  You have two keys labeled as pause and break individually.  Break is not the Fn+Pause - it really is ONE key function that gets called two things.  I.e. one that is combined Pause/Break.

I detailed that out in an earlier post in this thread.  It may have been skipped over in the 6 or so pages that followed.  It was easier to find in my keyboard thread where I had saved a copy.

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16872-and-now-for-something-completely-different-keyboard-option/?p=390503

This fixes the issues I could find in your original layout:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b766912420e62d3618bb682251e50f5f

The reasons for the changes and the logic behind them is detailed in the linked topic.  Flip back and forth between your original and my edited version.  I think you will find that the main premise and general map stays consistent, but it gets a cleaner look, improved functionality and more efficiency without getting complicated.

Sorry to bug you with another one to consider.
 
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Had a look at the current layout. Seems good to me, except for a few choices I'd like to have detailed :

- The "B" button on the lower level. I'm kind of a symmetry freak, so is there any reason why ?

- Is the R-Shift needed if we have a L-Shift on the shoulders ? Does any software require two shifts ? Same with Fn and L-Ctrl. Do we need these both on keyboard and shoulders ?

- How did you decide to put the R-Ctrl on R2, while L1 is L-Shift ? Doesn't AltGr (used for special characters) make more sense on the same level as Fn (used for special characters too) ?

- If the Fn + Brightness+ makes Brightness-, why keep Brightness- ? That would make room, right ?
 
If "fn+<game_button>" is something then you would get that something. If you press L2 and Left, something very likely to happen while playing a game, you don't want it to produce ESC keycode as well, you just want L2 and Left. Same goes for all the other game buttons.
This could be solved by making the keyboard Fn different from the shoulder Fn, but I suppose that that violates the "principle of least surprise".

EDIT: Or the shoulder Fn could be replaced with the MENU key.
 
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I'm also not sure if that layout is the latest. ED, you said you added my proposal of inverting the 5 top system buttons, but I still see the old layout. Are you sure we are working with the same link?
 
Well choose something, I have a LOT of keyswitches to solder to the TCA8418 in my project. 
 
Ahem... You know that you're using 9 keys with Fn+Shift in that layout to generate 4 symbols per key, right?
Thanks for noticing my error. Should have been with instead of without. I fixed the original post.
 
Is there a link to the updated current keyboard?
I'm always updating the layout directly, so the link shouldn't change.
Impossible. That layout editor produces stable links that always point to the same thing. If you change something and save again, the URL will have changed. I hope you haven't lost your changes.
 
Ahem... You know that you're using 9 keys with Fn+Shift in that layout to generate 4 symbols per key, right?
Thanks for noticing my error. Should have been with instead of without. I fixed the original post.
You're welcome.  I suppose it proves I actually do read these.  I scanned back quickly but couldn't find your original post - you may want to provide a link back to it or your layout if you reply.

ED stated above in a reply/critique of my old primary layout that Fn+Shift+key was expressly NOT going to happen.  I.e. there would be no double modifiers for symbols or actions printed on the keys.  I know - the concept greatly expands the capabilities of the keyboard, but ED and others have stated that they find it too confusing and in the end ED is who decides whether that is right or not.

So - moving onward.
 
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