Craigs Preorder List Update

[ekianjo]

I checked the survey results yesterday but I did not really know how to answer. Well, it's pretty clear selling 600+ 1Ghz Pandoras is very unlikely at this stage.

What I would like to know from ED is: what happens if you cannot meet these objectives? Will you "give up" at some point to support all of Craig's customers? 

Like, how much "baggage" are you willing to carry forward? 

I just hope that all of this will not further negatively impact any potential Pandora successor. (like adding 100 Euros more to the planned price just to further support Craig's customers).

At one point you have to let things go. 

 

[kasp]

Unfortunately, the Open Pandora is more and more obsolete (even if I still want mine), but the iCP's are not.


*If* the iCP2 works out, Craig could propose the remaining OP preorderers to sell them iCP2's at production costs, so that difference between the retail and the production prices of these several

Great for my students who have the latest iPhoneDroidLumia handily in their pocket.

Not so great for "yes I still have the OpenVMS server at home, and how are you?"-me who still maintains his main contacts list in a PalmOS 4 device.

But yeah, I do realize I'm maybe not primary target audience. Ignore my vote then .

As for the Pandora being obsolete. Oh if only you knew... :-D All these obsolete comments always make me go either *hmph* or LOL depending on how much conviction the OP has .

OK I know no-one is actually interested but whatever, here's my explanation for this view on obsoleteness:

I originally ordered the Pandora, because I intended to port POSE (Palm OS emulator) to it!

When I ordered I already knew it would be fairly trivial (I quickly created a test environment that was "close enough to be sure"). Matters like touch screen support were of course total wildcards, but hey, I never fail ;-).

I figured I could have something newer in my bag than the Sony Clie PEG T415 I had used since 2001. Even this mainly because I was worried the Palm I had carried around daily for so long might eventually break. The battery (proprietary, though still available overseas) was degrading. The backlight felt dimmer. For some strange reason it became difficult to order new 128 MB Sony MemorySticks via mail order...

The idea was to port POSE and slowly start transitioning to Linux apps where possible (notes, contacts, crypto for passwords). I liked Palm because I was able to do some development for it (fairly open environment), but Pandora would have been loads better in this regard. Most .sh scripts I often use would have worked right out of the box.

There are apps which I doubt I'd be able to get for anything other than Palm OS 4 (a payed for RUS-ENG-RUS dictionary for example), so emulation of a PALM device is essential.

That was supposed to be the main, daily use.

But I also hoped for Amiga and DOS (EGA level...) emulation "for old times' sake" and because The Pandora Can .

We know what happened with the Pandora. I'm happy to say the Clie is still alive and kicking (though only for a few days/charge), but I have actually retired the Clie now, only two months ago. I bought a used Handera 330!-) I consider it an upgrade for several reasons. Just imagine what I'd consider the Pandora to still be!!!

So: Obsolete my...

Seriously people saying the pandora isn't obsolete are honestly in denial.

The specs, design and feel to it are starting to get very dated.  I can buy the latest and greatest smart phone for around the same price as the pandora.  This doesn't mean it can no longer function as it is more than capable of serving your needs. I know people will say it's a different device with a different purpose but that is what you are competing with.  

CRT TV's aren't obsolete in your book because they are still functional and display an image.   Sure there is still a small demand for them for certain tasks but there is no mass market appeal and you couldn't sell them for anything close to what LED sells for.

Now don't get me wrong I love the pandora but I can see why the sales are slowing down.  Everyone who is interested has already got one and everyone else would much rather purchase the latest and greatest smartphone since it is in that price bracket.

 

[Zykr]

Everyone who is interested has already got one and everyone else would much rather purchase the latest and greatest smartphone since it is in that price bracket.

Minor Correction: Not everyone who is interested has already recieved a Pandora, but it is possible that most people who are interested in the Pandora and who aren't a pre-order, already have theirs. I do hope that isn't the case however...

 

[ekianjo]

Seriously people saying the pandora isn't obsolete are honestly in denial.

The specs, design and feel to it are starting to get very dated.  I can buy the latest and greatest smart phone for around the same price as the pandora.  This doesn't mean it can no longer function as it is more than capable of serving your needs. I know people will say it's a different device with a different purpose but that is what you are competing with.  

The design was dated from day one

Of course the Pandora is NOT obsolete. I don't know what you are talking about, seriously. So the PSP1 is obsolete, too then, but guess what, it still sells much more in Japan that the PSPVita which is not obsolete. Something is obsolete where there is no more software made for it.

This is exactly the opposite which is happening on the Pandora: there is more and more software ported for it, and more developers than 6 months ago. 

When I show the Pandora around running the desktop Firefox and LibreOffice and playing perfect DS emulation, sorry, but there's no other machine that can do that out there, and people "get it". There's so much stuff you can do with it, it;s not like these shitty smartphones that get obsolete once a new one comes out. You don't understand the market at all. That's why Pandoras are still selling nowadays even though their specs are dated. Software. Software makes the difference, just like for every device out there. 

Your arguments are dated and obsolete, more like it

 

[Thorgan]

Is Pandora using the latest SoC ? Nope.

Is Pandora using the latest screen technology ? Nope.

Is Pandora packed with 2gigs of ram ? Nope.

Has the Pandora a tremendous battery with a frugal SoC ? YES !

Has the Pandora the best software ? Yes

Is there any device on the market having a keyboard, dual SDXC slot, full size usb, ten hours of battery (actually using the device!), a firmware and hardware made by the bests ? Big Nope.

Calling Pandora obsolete is like saying Google Glasses are insignificant due to their specs. The usage dictates if a device is obsolete or not.

There is no competition because the market is tiny. It won't be obsolete soon.

 

[kasp]

Is Pandora using the latest SoC ? Nope.

Is Pandora using the latest screen technology ? Nope.

Is Pandora packed with 2gigs of ram ? Nope.

Has the Pandora a tremendous battery with a frugal SoC ? YES !

Has the Pandora the best software ? Yes

Is there any device on the market having a keyboard, dual SDXC slot, full size usb, ten hours of battery (actually using the device!), a firmware and hardware made by the bests ? Big Nope.

Calling Pandora obsolete is like saying Google Glasses are insignificant due to their specs. The usage dictates if a device is obsolete or not.

There is no competition because the market is tiny. It won't be obsolete soon.

Ha like I said I love the Pandora but that hardly translates into sales. If it was cheaper I am sure there would be more sales which would drive the lifespan of the unit up a bit.  However when it costs around the same as a high end smartphone it is obsolete. You could saturate the airwaves 24/7 with ads and you still wouldn't attract people purchasing it at the current price.

If the device was priced well in the market and up to date there would be enough demand for greater sales.  Currently they are struggling with sales so it is not priced well. The design makes it look old and clunky which also gives it a bit of a hit. It doesn't have that wow factor other devices have.

You have to look at the situation realistically and not let your bias towards it skew the facts.

 

[rohezal]

How well can you sell the Rebirth Pandoras? Looks like there are 93 in stock since several days. Is it possible to offer them to preorder people? Or maybe if they can't be sold, do some promotion action. 299€ rebirth weekend. Get a rebirth Pandora for only 299€. I think a lot of people would buy one for 299€ and if you announce it big, this would be around 27.000 - 19% = 21870. Which would found 81 new GHZ units which probably are sold more often.

 

[Thorgan]

Is Pandora using the latest SoC ? Nope.

Is Pandora using the latest screen technology ? Nope.

Is Pandora packed with 2gigs of ram ? Nope.

Has the Pandora a tremendous battery with a frugal SoC ? YES !

Has the Pandora the best software ? Yes

Is there any device on the market having a keyboard, dual SDXC slot, full size usb, ten hours of battery (actually using the device!), a firmware and hardware made by the bests ? Big Nope.

Calling Pandora obsolete is like saying Google Glasses are insignificant due to their specs. The usage dictates if a device is obsolete or not.

There is no competition because the market is tiny. It won't be obsolete soon.

Ha like I said I love the Pandora but that hardly translates into sales. If it was cheaper I am sure there would be more sales which would drive the lifespan of the unit up a bit.  However when it costs around the same as a high end smartphone it is obsolete. You could saturate the airwaves 24/7 with ads and you still wouldn't attract people purchasing it at the current price.

If the device was priced well in the market and up to date there would be enough demand for greater sales.  Currently they are struggling with sales so it is not priced well. The design makes it look old and clunky which also gives it a bit of a hit. It doesn't have that wow factor other devices have.

You have to look at the situation realistically and not let your bias towards it skew the facts.

<oversimplification>

Geeks aren't exactly sexy. Geek's device aren't supposed to be sexy. Geeks are willing to pay for that one device.

</oversimplification>

As for the price, it could be lower if there wasn't a situation to clean up. However, I don't see how lowering it would help clearing the queue.

I showed the pandora to a lot of people (developers like me, coding for food and also "normal people"). They were all more or less interested but none would go and buy it because a psp or nds (or even their smartphone) is enough. No one even asked the price or the technical details.

The market IMHO is very tight.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

Is Pandora using the latest SoC ? Nope.

Is Pandora using the latest screen technology ? Nope.

Is Pandora packed with 2gigs of ram ? Nope.

Has the Pandora a tremendous battery with a frugal SoC ? YES !

Has the Pandora the best software ? Yes

Is there any device on the market having a keyboard, dual SDXC slot, full size usb, ten hours of battery (actually using the device!), a firmware and hardware made by the bests ? Big Nope.

Calling Pandora obsolete is like saying Google Glasses are insignificant due to their specs. The usage dictates if a device is obsolete or not.

There is no competition because the market is tiny. It won't be obsolete soon.

Ha like I said I love the Pandora but that hardly translates into sales. If it was cheaper I am sure there would be more sales which would drive the lifespan of the unit up a bit.  However when it costs around the same as a high end smartphone it is obsolete. You could saturate the airwaves 24/7 with ads and you still wouldn't attract people purchasing it at the current price.

If the device was priced well in the market and up to date there would be enough demand for greater sales.  Currently they are struggling with sales so it is not priced well. The design makes it look old and clunky which also gives it a bit of a hit. It doesn't have that wow factor other devices have.

You have to look at the situation realistically and not let your bias towards it skew the facts.

<oversimplification>

Geeks aren't exactly sexy. Geek's device aren't supposed to be sexy. Geeks are willing to pay for that one device.

</oversimplification>

As for the price, it could be lower if there wasn't a situation to clean up. However, I don't see how lowering it would help clearing the queue.

I showed the pandora to a lot of people (developers like me, coding for food and also "normal people"). They were all more or less interested but none would go and buy it because a psp or nds (or even their smartphone) is enough. No one even asked the price or the technical details.

The market IMHO is very tight.

...Also if you can make the P2 LOOK less geeky and more sexy then it will appeal to more users, I think.

 

[Mr_Loon]

If CircuitCo wouldn't have had these issues with the production (which lead to a loss of 300K EUR in the first place), then everything would've been fine by now.

This is pure speculation but my guess is that Craig agreed to pay on delivery for working boards. From my understanding this is what did happen, i.e. Craig only paid for the working boards he received.

Which one of these quotes is true? If it's the second one, 300K could not have been lost.

If it's the first one, why have they not been sued? Is there a good legal reason or just Craig having "better things to do"?


Looks to me like suing CC for at least partial damages may be the only way to get out of the hole.

I think they are both true, but I probably didn't explain myself too well, here is my guess as to what happened.

1) OP Ltd (Craig) paid for the SOCs, Wifi BT Chips, Nand, bare boards, Nubs etc. & shipping of said items to CC.

2) The above were sent to CC with the understanding that Craig would pay for board population upon receipt of working boards.

3) There was no agreement made as to acceptable failure rates / what would happen if CC ruined the boards.

4) CC ruined a lot of the boards.

5) The total cost of the items ruined by CC was approx $300K.

 

[badcloud]

Edit: Upgraded

 

[akarolick]

Just upgraded to 1ghz

DUDE! Your avatar is beautiful!

 

[Timstertoo]

ED, when will you be sending out the emails to the $150,- upgrades that will get their units when the lcd's arrive? Money is burning in my pocket. Please take it!

Or worst case, I'll know that I'll have to patiently wait a bit longer. 

 

[Pickle]

Anway you look at this list other than the stay with CC or refund people its offloading Craig debt over to ED/donations. This seems to benefit craig. Pandora2 should have never been an option.

I think people in this queue would have to pay more, given those numbers I think its very toxic to try to meet those options given in the list. I know ED wants to do the right thing by the customers but I think its a lot to ask to take this on.

Sad to say seems once the CC fiasco happened this became a ponzi scheme, new orders to get rid of old, kicking the can down the road until who knows what would happen.

ICP2 profits should be another thing that should factor into this. But that looks like its heading down a similar route. ANd who knows how the funds are really managed.

 

[ShleeDragon]

The middle ground solution is offering people a unit at cost price... ED can just get the units produced and sent and get the queue finished once and for all. If 100 buy it and 400 don't... at least the queue is dead.

Donations will make the units a little cheaper.. maybe ED can sell TV out cables and extra stuff for some profit too.

Edit: 270euro for a rebirth unit and 290euro for a 1Ghz.. might aswell only sell the 1Ghz unit.... <- numbers might be wrong.

The store is selling 1Ghz for 452,94 €.. :S so that's a pretty sweet deal for people who preordered... and because ED can drop the price of the 1Ghz.. He'll get more every day sales. win:win.

also.. ED could offer the preorders Cost + shipping.. Once they are done - Follow up by a price discount and some promotional marketing that the OpenPandora is dropping it's price for mass market due to radness and everything working like clockwork.. win:win:win

 

[sporkbox]

As someone who has no choice but to wait for a Rebirth unit due to no spare money... I hope you don't give up on us, ED. Maybe donors can help bridge the gap in costs. I hope to produce games for the Pandora... but without one, I can't build for it. :/

 

[EvilDragon]

Well my last post was deleted by someone.  Apparently they don't like it when you call out exactly what has happened.

Which post?

As an admin, I can see any post that has been deleted in a thread, but I can't see any here.

What are you missing?

 

[ekianjo]

Ha like I said I love the Pandora but that hardly translates into sales. If it was cheaper I am sure there would be more sales which would drive the lifespan of the unit up a bit.  However when it costs around the same as a high end smartphone it is obsolete. You could saturate the airwaves 24/7 with ads and you still wouldn't attract people purchasing it at the current price.

If the device was priced well in the market and up to date there would be enough demand for greater sales.  Currently they are struggling with sales so it is not priced well. The design makes it look old and clunky which also gives it a bit of a hit. It doesn't have that wow factor other devices have.

Thank you, Captain Obvious

People don't want to purchase the Pandora because it's pricey, but also because they wouldn't have a use for it. People who want a Pandora on their pocket want it because they want a GENERAL PURPOSE COMPUTER with them. Not a crappy stupidphone. 

ANyway that market would be limited in the first place. The price just makes it worse, but it would never sell millions even if it were at 200 dollars. 

As for the wow factor, I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I have never felt any "wow factor" for any of the best tablets or smartphones out there. There's just the same thing all over and over again - the only thing that changes over time is their specs, but they are stuck in the same model and bring nothing new in each iteration. 

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

Ha like I said I love the Pandora but that hardly translates into sales. If it was cheaper I am sure there would be more sales which would drive the lifespan of the unit up a bit.  However when it costs around the same as a high end smartphone it is obsolete. You could saturate the airwaves 24/7 with ads and you still wouldn't attract people purchasing it at the current price.

If the device was priced well in the market and up to date there would be enough demand for greater sales.  Currently they are struggling with sales so it is not priced well. The design makes it look old and clunky which also gives it a bit of a hit. It doesn't have that wow factor other devices have.

Thank you, Captain Obvious

People don't want to purchase the Pandora because it's pricey, but also because they wouldn't have a use for it. People who want a Pandora on their pocket want it because they want a GENERAL PURPOSE COMPUTER with them. Not a crappy stupidphone. 

ANyway that market would be limited in the first place. The price just makes it worse, but it would never sell millions even if it were at 200 dollars. 

As for the wow factor, I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I have never felt any "wow factor" for any of the best tablets or smartphones out there. There's just the same thing all over and over again - the only thing that changes over time is their specs, but they are stuck in the same model and bring nothing new in each iteration. 

Kind of agree with you ekianjo.  I don't feel any Wow Factor for these new "stupidphones" neither.  Unless the next "stupidphone" can teleport you from earth to the moon in seconds then I would say "WOW" 

 

[MrConfusion]

As someone who has no choice but to wait for a Rebirth unit due to no spare money... I hope you don't give up on us, ED. Maybe donors can help bridge the gap in costs. I hope to produce games for the Pandora... but without one, I can't build for it. :/

Umm... I know I'll be corrected if wrong, so I'll do the Reality Check:

Reading this thread it is becoming quite obvious that apart from a generous one time donation in the 50000 to 100000 eur range (of some Mad As a Hatter Filthy Rich Person) there is simply no way anyone, not even ED can fix this situation completely. Not without sacrificing their own business with 99.9% certainty.

So, unless someone knows a MAHFRP anyone wishing to stick to rebirth is out of luck.

Some more money will need to be paid to get a Pandora, the question now is how much and what you get for it. And I guess that's one of the questions that is thinning ED's hair at the moment (though judging from the Youtube videos he's got an envy invoking amount to start with ;-). When the survey was done I though there'd be a single price for all... not this messy "who can pay how much"-thing. It was supposed to be a survey, not an order form, right?

But like I said before: There are people in the "Rebirth please"-queue who can pay quite a bit, and people who for one reason or another absolutely will not.

I'm sure that there are, for example, people who already found a replacement and would not pay a penny, some would probably dump the Pandora to ebay the moment it arrives (which, by the way, can present a real problem since there are so many preorders)!

Having spread all this negativity I can only say: I feel your pain :-(.

For me it's more about "balance" really. It's not like our family has "spare change". There is no such thing: due to mortgage all we get always goes. But by putting a little aside every month it is possible to buy gadgets. If the gadget is for me the value for money has to be pretty great, because I got 3 children who also lust after the Nintedogs and iPads...

I already explained my motive for getting the Pandora and since March 2009 a lot has happened. The figure Schlee Dragon suggested, nearly 300 (without VAT, was it?) is more than I paid originally. Yes, I know that is the production price. No that does not make me feel any better. I would definitely Google ebay and see if anything else "workable" is available used before paying that much... I probably would not find anything, but I sure would spend hours looking!

For perspective: The most expensive computer our household has has cost us 700 euros, including tax.

Expressed another way: I wouldn't start discussing about respending 300 on a palmtop gadget with my wife... Until after sex. It's not like I'm stupid. OK, I'm stupid, I ordered the Pandora, but you know, after >10 years of marriage you kind of learn to anticipate some problems in advance ;-).