Commercial Games Part Deaux

[Grench]

I know a lot of people hate the example.

Tapwave produced something on the order of 150,000 +/- Zodiac consoles. From what I can tell they got Activision on board early. Atari and several others started coming into the picture around 50,000 consoles. Around 100,000 consoles, they got in store placement in Circuit City and started creating their 2nd edition console. In their case the 2nd edition's main difference was to a non-Flash ROM (downgrade). That isn't what killed them though.

I think it was the ambiguity of whether the device was a gaming console or a PDA or a connected tablet - I used it for all of the above. In fact, I still carry my Zodiac with me daily. Combine this with minimal marketing efforts and the Circuit City folks having no idea what it was they were selling and likely other factors - and poof.

I think the key to expansion from 10K to 50K consoles is going to be getting 2-5 packages that everyone remembers but are now showing some age. I've already voiced my argument for trying to get Neverwinter Nights. Starcraft? Diablo III? I actually think the Pandora could run WOW if it were compiled and optimized right. Heck, make a WOW special edition with silkscreen logos for the good and evil side on the lid and sell it with a pre-loaded 8GB SDHC with the game on it for $75 over stock and there are people who would buy it. That game is, after all 4+ years old now right? Rollercoaster Tycoon. Any of the Tony Hawk games. Street Fighter. Mortal Kombat. The Simpsons. All games that normal people 25-40 recognize the names of. The people on this forum are by definition not 'normal'. What games would your rich uncle recognize? Why target 25-40 year olds? They are more likely to have disposable income.

Many of the above companies would likely require some form of DRM. That is being lively discussed in another thread currently - so leave it there please.

So much potential...

 

[Monk]

I guess I AM "my rich uncle" as, at 44, I appear to be over your target range already (and my uncles are older!).

What games would they recognise though? Asteroids and Mr Ee! (actually two of my favourites also).

 

[Grench]

I guess I AM "my rich uncle" as, at 44, I appear to be over your target range already (and my uncles are older!).

What games would they recognise though? Asteroids and Mr Ee! (actually two of my favourites also).

I'm only 40 and was the "rich uncle" until I got beat out at the role.

Those games, actually, are two good examples. I'll stick to the Asteroids one.

Yes, the game can be played on the OpenPandora through emulating the old Atari consoles. Fabulous work.

I don't own an Asteroids ROM - and I'm not interested in pirating one. There are clones out there for free - but nothing beats the classic right?

OpenPandora could contact Atari and put together an agreement to port Asteroids directly to ARM Linux on the OpenPandora platform. Atari would likely require it to be tied to DRM - other conversation. Once all that gets hammered out, OpenPandora recompiles the source code Atari would provide under the agreement terms, link it to the DRM (if it has to), and provide it for sale in it's application store. My suggested name for the store is, "Pandorappstore", but whatever floats it. Anyway, by having it compiled to run natively, the customer (me) gets a superior execution (direct from the launcher rather than going through an emulator) and the knowledge that they're not a pirate.

So... I could see games like this going for $5 a pop or bundles of 6 or so games like this going for $20. Atari has historically licensed these old games for LOTS of platforms this way.

Again, not all of us have a shed full of game cartridges, a custom ROM reader to translate them, or the inclination to piracy.

 

[MonkeyChops]

I will once again put my vote in for Carmageddon 2. It should be for sale, sci being out of business and all.

I also agree that WOW would attract an insane amount of attention. What WOW-freak wouldn't drool over the possibility of satisfying their unnatural addiction any time and anywhere (they could finally leave the house ). Its almost too easy. Whether or not (prob not IMHO) Pandora gets on the WOW band wagon, the market for portable WOW seems like a no-brainer.

 

[Monk]

I guess I AM "my rich uncle" as, at 44, I appear to be over your target range already (and my uncles are older!).

What games would they recognise though? Asteroids and Mr Ee! (actually two of my favourites also).

I'm only 40 and was the "rich uncle" until I got beat out at the role.

Those games, actually, are two good examples. I'll stick to the Asteroids one.

Yes, the game can be played on the OpenPandora through emulating the old Atari consoles. Fabulous work.

I don't own an Asteroids ROM - and I'm not interested in pirating one. There are clones out there for free - but nothing beats the classic right?

I'll put my hands up on this one - I have a couple of those Atari packs of re-released classic old games. Yes, I know - how COULD I? Despite having played "Meteors" for years, it isn't QUITE the same as the original. A classic in its own right, but actually owning "the real thing" is better.

Owning it several times over is apparently even better, and I do. Ditto Space Invaders (unlike Meteors, I never found a Space Invaders that I really liked on the BBC) and PacMan and a few others. My guilty secret, I bought some "Microsoft Arcade" packs when they were NEW and some Atari own-brand re-releases :gulp

They don't run on my GP2X though

Where was I? Oh yes! Mr EE is great on the BBC - no need to find another copy at all!

OpenPandora could contact Atari and put together an agreement to port Asteroids directly to ARM Linux on the OpenPandora platform. Atari would likely require it to be tied to DRM - other conversation.

I don't see why - AFAIK none of the collections I have include any DRM. They certainly don't "phone home" for an activation key. They're just good retro games, released at a price that doesn't encourage piracy.

Anyway, by having it compiled to run natively, the customer (me) gets a superior execution (direct from the launcher rather than going through an emulator) and the knowledge that they're not a pirate.

This HAS to be a plus, although on the down side those packs of retro Atari games often come bundled in their own launcher, very much like an emulator themselves

So... I could see games like this going for $5 a pop or bundles of 6 or so games like this going for $20. Atari has historically licensed these old games for LOTS of platforms this way.

Yup - got some myself, love 'em

In fact, 2-player "Joust" (playing co-operatively rather than combatatively) is one of my son's favourite games. Or at least, it was a couple of years ago (he's encountered many more games since then).

Again, not all of us have a shed full of game cartridges, a custom ROM reader to translate them, or the inclination to piracy.

Ah, but the youngsters can buy re-released games from Atari or through Good Old Games and similar services... we don't HAVE to be old hoarders to get legal access to quite a lot of stuff.

Not everything though, obviously, but as someone who gave up smoking 9 years ago, I beleive restraint is possible.

 

[Grench]

I'll put my hands up on this one - I have a couple of those Atari packs of re-released classic old games. Yes, I know - how COULD I? Despite having played "Meteors" for years, it isn't QUITE the same as the original. A classic in its own right, but actually owning "the real thing" is better.

Owning it several times over is apparently even better, and I do. Ditto Space Invaders (unlike Meteors, I never found a Space Invaders that I really liked on the BBC) and PacMan and a few others. My guilty secret, I bought some "Microsoft Arcade" packs when they were NEW and some Atari own-brand re-releases :gulp

They don't run on my GP2X though

Where was I? Oh yes! Mr EE is great on the BBC - no need to find another copy at all!

"Microsoft Arcade" packs only run on Windows using an MS specific launcher - product licensed by Microsoft for resale. If it called home to MS you would probably never know.

I don't see why - AFAIK none of the collections I have include any DRM. They certainly don't "phone home" for an activation key. They're just good retro games, released at a price that doesn't encourage piracy.

DRM doesn't have to be code based. It can be as simple as being tied to the platform it was released on with binaries that are only decoded and executable by it's own launcher. Got it as a phone app? Tied to the Phone's OS and your name. I think we do agree that low prices can help prevent piracy. Some apps just can't be made cheap enough to sell like that though.

This HAS to be a plus, although on the down side those packs of retro Atari games often come bundled in their own launcher, very much like an emulator themselves

The launcher usually ties them to a platform/OS - and eventual product death. Again, these are cheap cheap old stuff where DRM isn't as big of an issue usually. BUT they are platform tied with encoded data files only executable by the given launcher - not exactly 'open'.

Yup - got some myself, love 'em

In fact, 2-player "Joust" (playing co-operatively rather than combatatively) is one of my son's favourite games. Or at least, it was a couple of years ago (he's encountered many more games since then).[/quote]
I love Joust - fun times. Wasn't there a 4 player stand up console version of it for a short time in the arcades?

Ah, but the youngsters can buy re-released games from Atari or through Good Old Games and similar services... we don't HAVE to be old hoarders to get legal access to quite a lot of stuff.

Atari isn't likely to just go out and recompile all of these to ARM. If OpenPandora wants to be able to sell them, then OpenPandora would likely have to enter into an agreement with Atari to do so. I hope they do, and if they can do it without DRM, that is VERY cool. If they're talking to Atari, I hope they talk about the Neverwinter Nights property as well. It would be more expensive, but I want it. The old Atari classics would sell at the $5 price point. I could see NWN on ARM customized to the Pandora selling at the $50 price point - and selling at least half as many copies as Asteroids would.

NWN from Atari/Bioware for X86 is based on CDkey set DRM. If OpenPandora were to go through the effort to recompile it and make all of the functionality work (big effort), they would need to make sure someone couldn't just use their old X86 CD keys to run it - or they wouldn't be likely to sell nearly as many. Maybe a set of 'CDKeys' that are ARM specific? I don't know. Just my humble opinion - maybe we're all honest and that wouldn't happen...

Asteroids is fun and all, but you certainly don't need the hardware that the Pandora has under the hood to run it. Most of the audience for it would run it from their legally obtained collection of 30 year old game cartridges' data failes under an emulator anyway. Right?

I want to see some relatively modern big name titles come to this console - and if this is going to happen, I don't see a way around having some provisions for DRM as a result.

And no, OpenPandora doesn't have to be a direct competitor to Sony's PSP and the Nintendo DS. I see the OpenPandora's capabilities more as competition for Intel MID devices, the OQO's old market, every PDA that isn't a phone, every phone that thinks it's a PDA or game machine, set top internet devices, Sony's Viao line, the EEPC, the OLPC, the Amazon Kindle, etc... you get the idea.

If all the OpenPandora team -only- wanted to create a niche device for playing old games then they way overshot the mark. From a hardware perspective they will have exceeded all of the above device's capabilities - including the dedicated game consoles AND the shrunken notebooks. It may not exceed all of them in any one dimension, but if you account for size, power, battery life and most importantly -usable controls- then it smoke's em.

I didn't buy a Pandora just to play pong on. I hope that the OpenPandora team sees getting a few big name titles on it as a stepping stone to get from a 2nd batch of 4K consoles to a 3rd batch of 20K and a 4th batch of 100K. Getting a bump off of the sales of the games themselves wouldn't hurt the cause either.

 

[Tuxedomask29]

Games I would be interested in buying if they were made for the pandora and not emulated would be... You Don't Know Jack, 7th Guest, Guitar Hero, (Not Game) Retail GPS Software, horror genre like silent hill, Sing It, Spore... Well you get the idea

 

[Monk]

"Microsoft Arcade" packs only run on Windows using an MS specific launcher - product licensed by Microsoft for resale. If it called home to MS you would probably never know.

If it can call home from a machine with no phone or Internet connection then colour me impressed! Likewise with the "Atari 80 Classic Games in One!" pack and so forth. I've never ONCE needed to connect them to the net to play.

DRM doesn't have to be code based. It can be as simple as being tied to the platform it was released on with binaries that are only decoded and executable by it's own launcher. Got it as a phone app? Tied to the Phone's OS and your name. I think we do agree that low prices can help prevent piracy. Some apps just can't be made cheap enough to sell like that though.

Some apps pretty much "have" to be evpensive because they are niche enough not to have a alrge enough market to be worth developing for a low cost. That also means they have limited appeal, limited marketplace, and so piracy STILL wouldn't be the major problem that DRM cannot cure anyway...

But I digress, I'm falling into the trap of DRM discussion leaking in here too heavily, which I shall try to limit. Programs that take a week to write by a couple of people should IMHO cost less than programs of an equivalent quality but that take large teams nonths to write.

I'd be intruiged as to how you'd impliment DRM with no DRM code. Putting the DRM in the OS is not significantly different to putting it in the application IMHO, except that it reduces the value of the DRM (such as that is).

The launcher usually ties them to a platform/OS - and eventual product death. Again, these are cheap cheap old stuff where DRM isn't as big of an issue usually. BUT they are platform tied with encoded data files only executable by the given launcher - not exactly 'open'.

My packs of software aren't "Open" they are commercial - but I've not a one that is more tied in to the platform than any other program I've bought? What do you mean - like MS Arcade is Windows-only? That's... a LOT less limiting than any DRM would be!

I love Joust - fun times. Wasn't there a 4 player stand up console version of it for a short time in the arcades?

I don't know I'm afraid - we never encountered Joust in the arcades, I believe our first experience of it was on the PC - where 2 player is good enough for us!

Atari isn't likely to just go out and recompile all of these to ARM.

I thought that about Windows, too, and I agree about ARM. I'm quite surprised that there have been so many arcade games produced for Windows but I guess at a low price they can sell quite a few copies

That Craig has discovered "old software" is cheaper than he'd have assumed was heartening, wasn't it? Sadly I find it unlikely that OpenPandora will get into making old classics available legitimately for the Pandora because they can leave that field to the emulation scene and concentrate on products (NWN perhaps?) that emulation doesn't cover.

NWN from Atari/Bioware for X86 is based on CDkey set DRM.

Argh. I hate those. I don't carry every CD I ever bought around with me, and I loathe having to find the darn media when there is plenty of space on my hard drive for any data the game may need. the very fact that you can buy (though I have not) software to emulate a CD drive specifically to keep a pretend copy of a CD in shows, to me, that the customers do not love having CD-based DRM.

I want to see some relatively modern big name titles come to this console - and if this is going to happen, I don't see a way around having some provisions for DRM as a result.

I'm not sure if you're over-reaching what the Pandora can do or not, because those games mostly don't interest me - but I've heard OP state time and again that the Pandora is a great handheld, but it doesn't have the power to run "modern" desktop games. It's not equivalent to a dual core 3GHz PC.

And no, OpenPandora doesn't have to be a direct competitor to Sony's PSP and the Nintendo DS. I see the OpenPandora's capabilities more as competition for Intel MID devices, the OQO's old market, every PDA that isn't a phone, every phone that thinks it's a PDA or game machine, set top internet devices, Sony's Viao line, the EEPC, the OLPC, the Amazon Kindle, etc... you get the idea.

But in order to run the kind of games you SEEM to be suggesting - modern desktop games - that IS to compete with desktop PCs and SONY/Nintendo etc. handhelds. Isn't it?

If all the OpenPandora team -only- wanted to create a niche device for playing old games then they way overshot the mark. From a hardware perspective they will have exceeded all of the above device's capabilities - including the dedicated game consoles AND the shrunken notebooks. It may not exceed all of them in any one dimension, but if you account for size, power, battery life and most importantly -usable controls- then it smoke's em.

Yup! IMHO they aren't trying to look at the market and fit into... THAT slot. They've looked at the tech available and built the best product - Gaming Handheld, they say - that they can. Without artificial restrictions (well, not too many of them). They see what SONY et al have done, and they're not trying to mimic that, they're trying their own route. An innovative design made with care and attention. Gaming is the heart, the core, the goal - and the Pandora has the gumption to do that better than a control-less iPod or a keyboard-less PSP or (and so on) but also the guts to do more. Some of which I hope to use it for, too

Their design isn't about limiting you to a narrow vision of the type of games they intend to release, but about opening up the possibilities to design and play as wide a range of games as possible, within technical limitations.

I didn't buy a Pandora just to play pong on. I hope that the OpenPandora team sees getting a few big name titles on it as a stepping stone to get from a 2nd batch of 4K consoles to a 3rd batch of 20K and a 4th batch of 100K. Getting a bump off of the sales of the games themselves wouldn't hurt the cause either.

Absolutely!

 

[Bosbeetle]

With The pandora comming close the OS becoming more and more final etc. How is this department of Pandora development doing? I am just curious be cause we hear some glimpses of commercial games but its never more than a single blip on the radar.

Is there any movement on this front, have you (the devs)spoken to commercial parties? Will some of the first 105 go to game studios? Is there any movement on this front or is it for later care.

I think it might add a bit to the succes of the pandora.

 

[Monk]

I would kill to see some Dark Forces running without x86 emulation.

I mean, who doesn't want Kyle Katarn in their pants?

Oh yes - as unlikely as that seems. Or x-wing and tie-fighter games!

 

[juniorm33]

With The pandora comming close the OS becoming more and more final etc. How is this department of Pandora development doing? I am just curious be cause we hear some glimpses of commercial games but its never more than a single blip on the radar.

Is there any movement on this front, have you (the devs)spoken to commercial parties? Will some of the first 105 go to game studios? Is there any movement on this front or is it for later care.

I think it might add a bit to the succes of the pandora.

Craigix did reply to one of my posts recently i.e.last couple weeks ago regarding this.
I'm going to have paraphrase sorry:
"I've not looked any further into it, but I may do soon" Possibly after they get the first batch out.
If I get a chance to find the post I will.

Trouble is it's hard for us to throw out ideas, it would be nice if he had some kinda possible list of cheap but good licenses that they can pick up.
Jeff Minter, Good Old Games seems to have a few decent games, but whether it's possible to come our way is a whole different thing.

 

[fusion_power]

The guys from http://superfighter.com/ had made a new game for the ATARI Lynx, I think this would be a good source for nice Retro-Games for Pandora? They also made some good Games for Megadrive, I bet they would be very interested in the skills of the Pandora.

EDIT: Oh, and there is the new Hack'n Slay hope onto the PC: "TORCHLIGHT" would be a more than beautiful Dream for the Pandora. The game is not open Source but the engine is ("OGRE" or so). AFAIK, the game is easy to edit, very mod-friendly,should run under Linux (WINE) and it even already has an "Netbook mode", wikipedia tells more: "The game was designed to run on a wide range of systems and does not require shaders."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torchlight
Currently, you can only buy it online but this would be also not bad for the Pandora. I know it is very unlikleley that the coders (Some Diablo 2 Veterans) make an ARM Port but hey, if you don't know the game, play it at least on PC. Demo available and Full-Version only costs 20 Dollar over Steam, Paypal & Co...

 

[OrR]

First priority should be getting the rights to sell legal full copies of the games we easily get open source engines for (Doom, Quake, Duke Nukem 3D, Transport Tycoon) and classic games that run perfectly on the various emulators. For emulated games, it would probably be a good idea to make a rom version available for download as well as a standalone version that includes the emulator.

The next step is to make ports of classic and indie games happen. The communuity can help a lot here by simply asking around what might be possible. It has to be worked out who ports the game, who sells it and who gets money for what. A lot of different deals are possible and we should think outside the box if we really want to make some things happen.

We should always remember that the Pandora is not completely alone. It would be great if licenses and ports could be applied to a multitude of similar devices like the N900, Palm Pre, Android phones, jailbroken iPhones (is that a commercial market, yet?), AI Touchbook and so on. Maybe libpnd etc could be ported to these devices and Linux variations and make as much Pandora software run with as little porting effort as possible? That would suddenly make the potential target market much bigger and thus a lot more attractive so we would end up with a lot more great software. It would be sort of comparable to N-Gage as a device vs N-Gage as a software platform. Probably not easy to do but could be worth the effort. Especially on the Pre, where there is a lack of direct hardware access at the moment, a Pandora gaming platform plugin to enable games could be a huge success IMO and would probably be welcome by Palm as they are just trying to figure out how to do this themselves.