Colorful week

[stevenc99]

If we're speculating wildly: maybe with only a 2GB option, not enough people would have pre-ordered to make production possible at all or make enough profit to begin a second round...

More seriously, maybe some portion of the boards populated with 4GB will have problems and only be able to use 2 or 3GB. Those could fulfill 2GB orders without having to spend time on repairs, or buy a separate batch of smaller chips and manufacture the 2GB boards separately.

And hopefully, in time, someone will find a cool use case that only the 4GB boards can handle, and we can say "ha, I told you so!"

 

[mius]

@Grench:

What then, exactly, is your requirement for 4GB of RAM that cannot be done on a 2GB Pyra but is a suitable task for a mobile device?

I provided you with a typical, i.e. suitable UMPC task set that can be done on a 2 GB Pyra, but should be a much better experience with 4 GB. It's here, have a look.

 

[stevenc99]

I wonder if even this could work:
http://wiki.xenproject.org/wiki/Xen_ARM_with_Virtualization_Extensions/OMAP5432_uEVM

Xen would certainly benefit from 4GB of RAM. An existing use-case for Xen on a portable device, is the Qubes OS, running isolated VMs for better overall security.

 

[Grench]

Hmm... my old x86 work machine (C2D, 2 GB RAM) capitulated much, much sooner because of insufficient memory than CPU load due to browsing. And before you ask, the number of open tabs was not that relevant in my use case, but what types of website I browsed.


Here's what I would have in mind: Run the following setup, as an example of ultramobile laptop replacement, on an external monitor:

First, start your capable browser to:
1) work two very image-heavy Twitter feeds,
2) maybe a third tab for working with Google street maps (street view!), and
3) another tab or two for communication (e.g. e-mail, forums, social media).

All the while, 4) having a knowledgebase/note taking application à la Org-mode (stand-alone) or TiddlyWiki (in another browser tab, running on node.js) on stand-by, while you 5) periodically keep a couple of pdf and epub files of typical sizes open for a while as well, e.g. files in the range from 5 MB to 200 MB.

Run the above setup for at least half an hour to an hour and do (simulate) some real work with it. Phase out nos. 1, 2 and 5 if necessary as they can be stress tests on their own.

@Grench:

I provided you with a typical, i.e. suitable UMPC task set that can be done on a 2 GB Pyra, but should be a much better experience with 4 GB. It's here, have a look.

I believe that @TrashyMG did task loads similar to that, though likely not the same exact ones, and found that the OMAP 5 started to show strain before the 2GB RAM limitation on his development board was reached. He would be able to provide more detail on that.

So your argument for needing more RAM is that you desire to use RAM very inefficiently for caching web sites - the opening of which will require large amounts of data download - which would be the true bottleneck of your web applications. Most web browsers will gobble up available RAM to essentially cache things (against the network stack) that, in many cases, would be better or effectively the same to cache to storage, which they will use if RAM becomes short. Caching to disk on a modern flash based device like the Pyra is nothing like caching to spinning disks was in the 90s or even the Pandora's 20MB/s SD slots. Modern storage is freekin' fast.

If you have a bunch of images sitting in more or less static RAM you'll use a bunch of RAM, but you're not really processing against it, so those static images may as well be cached by the browser to the more energy efficient though slower - but still so fast that it feels more or less instantaneous - eMMC instead.

The knowledge/note applications should be intelligent enough to load the page you're on +/- 10 or so pages into RAM then dynamically scroll while reading the rest of the data file from, "disk", which at roughly 100+MB/s on the eMMC or 50+MB/s on the SD slots, should feel more or less instantaneous compared to the initial page load (networking) at roughly 3MB/s on WiFi or half that on 4G.

I expect that the difference between running that task load on a 2GB Pyra vs 4GB Pyra would be so close to the same that humans would have difficulty distinguishing between the two.

So - great! We're getting Pyras with 4GB of RAM. I hope it makes people happy even if it doesn't make much sense from a technical viewpoint. Optimist, glass half full. Pessimist, glass half empty. Engineer, glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[dsblackout]

Yep, twice as big as it needs to be--but someone in the future is going to have a legitimate use case where 4GB of RAM is more efficient than 2GB plus caching to eMMC, and then it won't be twice as big as it needs to be anymore. And there's always a case to be made for edge uses that need a lot of RAM but a very small amount of CPU capacity (some types of video and image editing come to mind).

 

[stevenc99]

Disagree on all points:

you desire to use RAM very inefficiently for caching web sites

reminds me of the lame "you're holding it wrong" excuse for what was after all bad hardware design

This does sound like the browser's fault, or a web application's fault, or even the web designers fault for putting too many images on one page; but can we really do much about that? isn't life easier for users if they _just have more RAM_ so that the Pyra performs as well as their netbook?

telling users they have to work differently on the Pyra than they're accustomed to on a desktop/laptop, means the Pyra isn't being such a practical replacement for those devices, and yet that is why many people would like one.

Modern storage is freekin' fast.

whilst applications have continued to require more data, faster. I've always found swapping-to-disk (even now with SSDs) to massively hurt Linux's performance in any situation where latency matters.

but still so fast that it feels more or less instantaneous - eMMC instead.

swapping causes I/O, which can starve other I/O, and then you could have perceptible lag, perhaps crackling audio, etc.

many people disable swap entirely for this reason.

The knowledge/note applications should be intelligent enough

that would be nice, but in the overwhelming majority of applications originally intended for desktop, that is probably _not_ the case.

I expect that the difference between running that task load on a 2GB Pyra vs 4GB Pyra would be so close to the same that humans would have difficulty distinguishing between the two.

if that is your task load. Or if your task load is something else, then maybe the difference is huge.

 

[TrashyMG]

Well I ran a metric ton of things at once, I'm not sure it's a definitive test of memory usage, there most likely is some uses that may consume a bit more ram without bogging down the CPU...

 

[Agricola]

@TrashyMG
Could you list the video in your YouTube account? I wanted to link it 2 pages ago for reference, but couldn't find it on your account as you unlisted it. This could make future discussions a bit easier.

 

[TrashyMG]

Okay I made it public.

 

[levi]

isn't life easier for users if they _just have more RAM_ so that the Pyra performs as well as their netbook?

FWIW, my netbook has 2GB of RAM. I upgraded it myself.

 

[tigerroast]

So why did they buy the more expensive one? [...] Because of, "herd mentality".

Found the hipster!

 

[Shlee]

ED, excellent progress. Thanks for your hard work.

I wonder if even this could work:
http://wiki.xenproject.org/wiki/Xen_ARM_with_Virtualization_Extensions/OMAP5432_uEVM

Xen would certainly benefit from 4GB of RAM. An existing use-case for Xen on a portable device, is the Qubes OS, running isolated VMs for better overall security.

Security is basically non existent on the Pandora and Pyra... luckily the community ED has nurtured has not brought in any kind of vitriol or anger that would cause people to investigate any kind of malware onto the Pandora.

That said, I know lots of people in the infosec community whom would adore using the Pyra as a secure development box...

 

[comradekingu]

So maybe in the future https://www.qubes-os.org could run on it?

 

[Grench]

Found the hipster!

Mmm... lots of stereotypes fit me, but that has never been one of them. Since it seems to interest you: When asked, I usually reply that, "I am a redneck with a budget. My monstrous off-road vehicle is a Landcruiser and my Camaro runs." Currently favorite musical group is Katzenjammer, though I have never had the opportunity to see them live.

Yes, I think that anyone new to the Pyra who saw the sales stats would assume that the 2GB model is just there for a price point and must be substantively inferior to the 4GB version to push the sales that way - so they follow the crowd.

Well I ran a metric ton of things at once, I'm not sure it's a definitive test of memory usage, there most likely is some uses that may consume a bit more ram without bogging down the CPU...

Thank you - that is exactly what I'm talking about. By the time you get to opening Diablo II in that demo, you already have more stuff open than any sane person is likely to need or want open at any given moment. 1.35 GB of programs, CPU pegged, system stable, a metric ton of stuff running. I love it.

Then you crack open DosBox and keep going. It still amazes me how much you had running all simultaneously. I fail to see how a rational sane individual can watch that whole video and still claim that they NEED MOOAAARR RAM!!!!.

Fantastic job of showing reality - thank you! 20 minutes very well spent Sir.

 

[EvilDragon]

And I'm still amazed how fast that still all runs in that video.
It's 1080p, so with 720p, it should even be faster.

 

[ible]

@EvilDragon well you have the prototype, right? you should do a video stress test like TrashyMG's

that might help people get over their MOAR-POWER anxiety. (having a good battery life gets people over their "range anxiety" )

 

[EvilDragon]

@EvilDragon well you have the prototype, right? you should do a video stress test like TrashyMG's
that might help people get over their MOAR-POWER anxiety. (having a good battery life gets people over their "range anxiety" )

Yes, but it will still look slow on the prototype, as hns didn't have the time to finish debugging the rotator kernel driver. Without it, graphics output will be a lot slower.
So I'm waiting with the videos until that driver is finished, otherwise it will just scare everyone away

 

[TrashyMG]

And I'm still amazed how fast that still all runs in that video.
It's 1080p, so with 720p, it should even be faster.

Well the video is in 1080p because of the camera I was using, but the monitor I was using was 720p (1366x768) native. It was running choppy because I had the CPU pegged for the most part.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

@EvilDragon If it turns out the 4GB edition doesn't work out, or the battery life is too much worse, can I change my order to 2GB?

 

[tigerroast]

Mmm... lots of stereotypes fit me,...

That's nice. Wanna bring 'em to the White House?

...but that has never been one of them.

A couple trips to your local (or nearest) up-cycling clothes retailer and you'll be fedora-flipping to elitism in no time. And you still wouldn't need more than 2GB RAM to edit and process* your handlebar mustache maintenance videos. *addendum: I'm well aware that video editing/processing on Pyra is a fast-lane to Slow Death City, so don't go splitting hairs on me, now.

Since it seems to interest you:...

It really doesn't. You could have live recordings of some small-time indie band from Redneckistan, Arkansas and I would still be more interested in the original thinker that got a 20-to-life sentence for stealing candy, socks and underwear. Some people never learn.

When asked, I usually reply that, [blah say blah say]

I bet you pour the milk before you pour the cereal. Unless you're an environmentally-friendly redneck that doesn't eat cereal nor drink milk, in which case I think you're lying about many stereotypes fitting you. Except for being a hipster.

Yes, I think that anyone new to the Pyra who saw the sales stats would assume...

So literally anyone who's new to the Pyra, relative to the start of preorders, had the initiative to both check the boards and, probably consequentially, the preorder stats when they heard about the Pyra from the tech site they visit or forum they dwell. K. Even if they checked the forum, then they could still gather, without digging for info that's not already presented, that the RAM amount is the only difference when compared to the 4GB equivalent. Not exactly detective work when trying to find out what you're dropping half a stack on.

And that's assuming (plenty of assumptions being tossed around) they didn't just go straight to Dragonbox or the Pyra landing page and never so much as looked at the forums.

...that the 2GB model is just there for a price point and must be substantively inferior to the 4GB version to push the sales that way - so they follow the crowd.

2GB RAM is inferior to 4GB RAM. It's simple math. Are you arguing with math? The glass is twice as big as it needs to be, but people be thirsty.