Citadel: Mmo Platform Game Concept

[PoisonedV]

I'm generally not worried about PvP, I don't know if you've ever played UO before (almost 12 years ago now, jeez I was 14) but Griefing was a huge problem. Usually creating races creates a ruleset on how PvP is handled and makes sense within a game world. Having PvP just being free for all takes the MMO out of the game because than it becomes anti-social. The Bar for entry into PvP systems is constantly set higher making it near impossible to actually get anywhere and usually frustrate the user to go elsewhere.

Which is what I did...I went to Sierra's "the Realm."

well, like i said, pvp would still be optional, if you dont want to get griefed it would be easy to just stay in the pve realm and transpot back in at a different point.

 

[kagato]

I would suggest taking a look at Maplestory and Ragnarok Battle Offline (RBO). Maplestory combat and bossfights blow but it has quite the few ideas you want implemented, like player owned stores and multi level cities.

Yes, MapleStory looks like it has several similar elements. Someone else pointed it out in a PM recently. I haven't tried it out yet, but it's probably worth investigating. I'd like to try and stay at least somewhat unique though, so I won't look too closely for fear of stealing too many ideas

QUOTE
The main problem with combat in many (mmo)rpgs is that its hard to get the player to use multiple attacks without using cooldown and the like. Why put points into other skills and use them when you have one realy strong one?

I'm currently working on an idea that's a cross between Cave Story's level-up system and they way many shoot-em-ups work.

Rather than level up your character as a whole and get points to spend where you like, you level up on the specific skills you're using. Any weapon you pick up you can use, but the more successful attacks you make, the more experienced you are with it. When you get enough skill XP to level up, you get a choice of specialisation - eg. for Bow, you might choose Damage, Range, Speed or Multishot. Each specialisation has its own advantages that are useful in different circumstances, but you can only choose one at a time. You can change your mind later and take a different branch... but you have to level up all over again (like switching weapons in Truxton).

That might sound pretty harsh, but leveling up could be comparatively easy to other games. Also, it might be good to combine it with a sort of "use it or lose it" system, where if you focus heavily on leveling up one ability, your others slowly degrade, such that you can't become a combat monster maxed out on everything.

[1.] I haven't seen an RPG yet that has a comfortable and same-status-with-melee magic skill system (and sometimes even non-magical ranged). I haven't played that many, but it's an issue I keep hitting all the time. Warhammer Online seems the best I've seen so far.
[2.] A properly abstracted engine that can be used for the level editor would should be provided asap, so people can create content.
[3.] Resolution agnostic engine.
[4.] If you have a LOT of players, posix threads don't cope well on the server side.
[5.] Proof of concept asap. Will help out. Make a project on google code?
[6.] License. Some people will fret over this. Best to have a liberal license, but if valuable libraries are GPL, it's not a disaster to switch.

1. So far I'm planning for magic and melee to be on exactly equal footing, in that they are based on the same skill system. You have a basic skill for any weapon you're using that can be leveled up, but you can also learn specific combat skills (ie, special moves), spells, or other abilities. (I haven't decided how you pick up these skills yet, but maybe you have to learn them rather than "invent" them... perhaps you need to visit a mentor and "buy" the basic skill.) I'm hoping all skills you have will level up in the same manner.

2 & 3. As a tile-based engine, that should be a straightforward possibility. Cocos2d looks like it provides excellent sprite scaling, so it should handle different screen sizes too.
As a side note, a tile size of 32px gives 25x15 tiles at 800x480, or 20x15 at 640x480, so that should suit most targets nicely. I might put that down as a tentative standard for now.

4. I'm making no judgments on the server at this stage; there is no reason it even needs to be in the same language as the client. Someone with more server development experience can advise on that.

5 & 6. If you want to give it a shot, feel free. I wouldn't worry about project hosting just yet, until we have some useful code to share first. I'm not too worried about licensing, so probably just whatever the best framework requires (preferably open, of course). Art asset licensing will depend on what comes up later.

Will PvP be allowed? If so, different races may be needed. Grief killing just plain sucks. Perhaps PvP would resort to turn-based combat to satisfy lag?

PvP is definitely in. That is part of the purpose of the Night(PvE) / Day(PvP) / Twilight(safe) division of the world. (See Game Overview)
Maybe different factions, but I'm not sure yet. Definitely not turn-based; part of the goal is a multiplayer action platformer. (I have deliberately not referred to the game as an RPG, though there will certainly be elements of it.) Yes, it does depend on good network code, for which I will certainly need assistance.

QUOTE
Also, will items *appear* as they are on the floor? Not like a generic bag or chest that contains different items?
Is dual wielding possible? What about two shields?


Monster drops are yet to be determined, but probably mostly mana and health pickups, or maybe the occasional basic weapon. Special monsters might drop unique items.
Yeah, I'd use the actual weapon sprite for weapons, but probably symbolic pickups for other things.

Dual wielding might be worth considering. Perhaps instead of Attack and Block the controls should be Primary and Secondary... though we might need a clever Parry system then. I guess two shields would be possible, though only useful if they had different effects; but then you wouldn't get a basic attack.
It would also involve a rethink of the "radial equip menu" method, but it should be doable.

Monsters won't drop anything, it causes to much lag to let the monsters lie down till some on grabs te loot or place items on the ground and it will disturb your game to much to open up a screen every time you defeated a foe. So I think just quest rewards are what needed.

Drops would be simple enough. Monsters will probably disappear in a puff when killed, and generic drops will only hang around for 10 seconds or so. Unique items stay forever (or until the room resets, if that happens). Primary loot (most equipment & treasure) should come from quests though.

as for the dev and discussions wouldn't a IRC or a dedicated forum be worth investing in?

I can't be online at any predictable times, so IRC is out, but the wiki can certainly be used for discussion. Extra pages can be created, or you can use the discussion feature on existing pages. Again, anyone interested is welcome to sign up. (I've only made it protected to avoid wiki spam.)

 

[sindbad]

4. I'm making no judgments on the server at this stage; there is no reason it even needs to be in the same language as the client. Someone with more server development experience can advise on that.

5 & 6. If you want to give it a shot, feel free. I wouldn't worry about project hosting just yet, until we have some useful code to share first. I'm not too worried about licensing, so probably just whatever the best framework requires (preferably open, of course). Art asset licensing will depend on what comes up later.
4. It would probably be helpful to use the same language, to keep the barrier of entry low (why I'm not instantly jumping on twisted and not even thinking of erlang). This is the part I may be able to help out with more.

5. Maybe I'll try and remember how games are made

 

[PoisonedV]

Please do not draw any inspiration from Maple story. the only similarity I see in any respect is its a platformer, and thats it- the battlnig isn't action based and it's not actually about platforming, its just in that perspective

 

[Milamber777]

Item drop suggestion - instead of having any graphic that lingers, and hence forces the player to pick the item up slowing down action in addition to item clutter. There will most likely be a text window. Just add a line of text after the monster is killed.

"Player does 58 points of damage"
"Nasty monster is killed"
"Player receives 2 gold, 12 silver" / "Player loots a short sword from Monster"

That removes a dangling item graphic, and the need to open any loot type window, while still being able to offer item or coin drops as wished.

Now, how items would be distributed is a different story, and cause for a whole nother round of conflict. Especially 'boss' type monsters or rare spawns.

Edit: After a quick rethink, boss / event spawns can be easily handled by either a character flag / turn in to complete the quest and receive the item. This can also be advantageous in allowing for different class-specific or race-specific rewards for the event or battle.

 

[bitz_dv]

Looking at this it looks like a very promising idea. I would like to lend my services, currently my skill set lies on the artistic side, so I could definitely help out with that stuff. I am working on learning coding of some sort, know some basic HTML and PHP, and struggling with Action Script 2 and 3 (they are different enough I can't decide which to start with, I want to work with Adobe AIR, so I need to learn 3 quicker). I want to learn Python and eventually C, just no time right now as I am completing my artistic Portfolio. I am going to sign up on the Wiki, and I hope we can get rolling with this, look forward to it!

 

[fusion_power]

As far as I could tread this thread, it sounds interestin. I hope this project will go a better way than the last Pandora-Board project (this Zombie-thing )

Will this RPG be beginner-friendly?
Why 2D? Style or Hardware-Limitations? (unlikeley onto the Pandora ) Is the Camera View classical 2D sideways or isometric? If classical sideway 2D, will there be a parallax-Layer like in Cave Story or Super-Metroid?
I like 2D Pixel Art but maybe a combination of a 3D Engine and orthographic camera mode could be more easy to handle I mean faking a 2D scenario with a 3D Engine because the Pandora has Hardware 3D acceleration (if we ever get drivers for the SGX of course! :lol: )
Are there other Pictures for inspiration? The graphical Style I mean. Middle Age or ancient Rome or Greek (could be interesting) or just pure fantasy mix-of-everything ? ^_^

 

[Mattz]

Just a quick idea I had; I think that when the engine is written, if it were to be written so that the graphical side of it was separate from the main physics-mechanics-networking side of the engine, then this would give other developers the chance to change the graphics of the game tailored to other platforms.
For example, on the pandora it could use plain 2D with parallax, but on a linux or windows platform, the graphics engine could be recoded to use 3d; using models and textures and a 2.5D world (Uses the tile based data the game was made in and back projects it to give illusion of full 3d). This way source code to different parts of the game can be fully released without the worry of exploited clients being compiled or having code stolen.

Also I am willing to learn python to help with this project if my help is required.

 

[rikisg]

Kagato:
QUOTE
Rather than level up your character as a whole and get points to spend where you like, you level up on the specific skills you're using. Any weapon you pick up you can use, but the more successful attacks you make, the more experienced you are with it. When you get enough skill XP to level up, you get a choice of specialisation - eg. for Bow, you might choose Damage, Range, Speed or Multishot. Each specialisation has its own advantages that are useful in different circumstances, but you can only choose one at a time. You can change your mind later and take a different branch... but you have to level up all over again (like switching weapons in Truxton).

That might sound pretty harsh, but leveling up could be comparatively easy to other games. Also, it might be good to combine it with a sort of "use it or lose it" system, where if you focus heavily on leveling up one ability, your others slowly degrade, such that you can't become a combat monster maxed out on everything.


I would rather like weapon/magic mastery slots or something. You choose three weapons/ magic types like for example spear, bow, fire. When you level up your bow you get to choose from some upgrades, I liked your damage, range, speed and multishot.
Now if you choose Damage your hits with bow get stronger and you get an active skill that, when used, deals extra damage or something. Now for speed you get faster shooting and a skill that when holding lets you shoot even faster but you can't move while using it and costs x mana every sec., for range you get the aditional range and a skill that, when used, lets you charge your attack for some mana that increases damage the longer you charge and multi hit adds arrows to every attack and a skill that doubles the arrows shot for that attack for some mana.
If you choose to get a level in damage and in speed you get both pasives and active skills and a third skill that is a combination of both active skills but is balanced by being slow to start/has a long cooldown/ drains lots of mana. Now if you would get another level in damage your damage goes up and the damage active skill and the damage/speed gets upgraded to perhaps a piercing arrow that passes through multiple enemies and the speed side of the third skill remains the same unless speed is upgraded.
I thought about magic having some pasives that add elemental damage to weapon damage, but this already is a balancing nightmare.


PoisonedV:
QUOTE
Please do not draw any inspiration from Maple story. the only similarity I see in any respect is its a platformer, and thats it- the battlnig isn't action based and it's not actually about platforming, its just in that perspective


I agree that the combat is horid but has some nice ideas and is one the most popular side-scrolling mmorpgs. I played Maplestory for almost two years and know its flaws quite well. It is the closest thing to a castlevania/metroid mmo I know but this game sounds so much more awesome when (if) it will be finished.

 

[kagato]

[1.] Will this RPG be beginner-friendly?
[2.] Why 2D?
[3.] Is the Camera View classical 2D sideways or isometric? If classical sideway 2D, will there be a parallax-Layer like in Cave Story or Super-Metroid?
[4.] Are there other Pictures for inspiration? The graphical Style I mean. Middle Age or ancient Rome or Greek (could be interesting) or just pure fantasy mix-of-everything ? ^_^

1. I certainly hope it will be. The controls are intended to be simple and arcade-like (maybe even too simple for some tastes), and most players ought to be able to jump right in.
2. Partly for style (because I think 2D games are still cool), and the concept pretty much revolves around being 2D; and partly for speed of development (both coding and artwork; anyone with some art skill can create 2D assets, but not everyone has 3D skills).
3. Side scrolling only. Yes, there'll be parallax layers where appropriate.
4. Not yet, I haven't drawn any. But not a specific historical setting, it's pure fantasy.

I would rather like weapon/magic mastery slots or something. You choose three weapons/ magic types like for example spear, bow, fire.

It took a few reads to figure out what you were getting at, but I think I understand. I've got something similar in mind, I'll write up a possible skill system soon.

 

[Username]

I've always wanted a 2D Castlevania style MMO, but I've never been able to find one (up til now, that is). If you want to use 3D acceleration you can make it a side-scroller with 2D sprites and a 3D looking 2D background.

 

[Mithrildor]

Has been to quite for to long! Any progress?

 

[Phawx]

Probably not. Kagato has already said this isn't going to be a launch title. Things can change, but I'll treat this as something from Blizzard, "When it's done."

 

[kagato]

Has been to quite for to long! Any progress?

Seriously? Three days, and you get jittery?
This is going to be a long project; best get used to waiting. If you need your MMO fix more quickly, Eniko's project might be a better bet.

I'm writing up a skills proposal tonight, and I'll be working on a Flash demo of the character sprite system this week to see if the concept is workable.

 

[efegea]

This is a very interesting project, I wish you luck, it's not as easy to code a mmo, but that doesn't mean it's impossible, in fact it's very possible. Although as I've read over the internet, an amateur project can take years to complete. Although someone did code a mmo server on python on just four hours without even knowing how to code on that language

For those curious about how I got onto this thread (I haven't read this thread before, only saw the topic title and knew that it was about a mmo, but haven't read the thread before): I had an idea about some kind of mmorpg kinda like maple story, but more at my way of doing things, I mean, I've been working on a 3D engine since a year or two ago, because when finished, I wanted to start a 2.5D game, like the remake of Castlevania: Rondo of blood for the PSP, so I though about a maple story in 2.5D (I first wanted to do it more castlevania ambiented, but at the end I decided to give it a style more like Klonoa, because it's far more easy) Then I remebered that there was a thread about a mmo on the pandora forums, and discovered the idea was very similar to mine.

But my main idea was making it community-based, so anyone can collaborate. But that could give a lot, really a lot of headaches. How the clients will get the new stuff? Making them to wait to download each time they log in? No. Who decides what stuff will be on the game? whatever anyone wants to upload? what if someone makes shit or something that people doesn't like? And, if the client and the server are open source, how to avoid hackers to modify the client and all the fatal consecuences? Perhaps, at the end, a closed-source, with user-voted but controlled stuff, and administrated by someone it's the best solution. I don't like closed-source apps, and there are sucesfull open source mmorpgs, but it's too difficult to make one.


That said, I'm not going to make that mmo. I have the idea, I have the skills, but I know that's a long term project, and not easy. And well, there is a mmo project in course for the pandora, why another one?

I want to recommend an article, well a serie of articles, written by the creator of the open source mmorpg Eternal Lands. It's called "eternal lands postmortem" and describe the problems and complications while creating the mmorpg. It's hosted on gamedev.net, but anyway here is the link: http://www.devmaster.net/articles/mmorpg-p...ortem/part1.php

Good luck

 

[Eniko]

Has been to quite for to long! Any progress?

Seriously? Three days, and you get jittery?
This is going to be a long project; best get used to waiting. If you need your MMO fix more quickly, Eniko's project might be a better bet.
While I'm flattered that my project seems to inspire such confidence I'd really have to echo what you said too. Honestly, any MMO for the Pandora will be a large project with a lot of hurdles to overcome, and will probably take it's sweet time.

So large doses of patience are advised.

 

[evill33t]

i am a professional python coder, with focus on server/client architecture furthermore i work since 3 years on a l2 mmorpg server emulator and very interested in this project

cavestory and castlevania sotn+ are my favorite type of games

regards

 

[kagato]

i am a professional python coder, with focus on server/client architecture furthermore i work since 3 years on a l2 mmorpg server emulator and very interested in this project

Well that's good news! Having someone involved who already has MMO networking experience should make progress a lot easier. Welcome aboard

 

[BenTolputt]

Well that's good news! Having someone involved who already has MMO networking experience should make progress a lot easier. Welcome aboard

It was my understanding that this was being done by one person only atm, i.e. it was not a "community project". And for the record, the "Zombie-thing" failed because the community couldn't agree on a common path and the two (yes only two) people who contacted me to assist dropped off the planet for over a fortnight before I tossed in the towel.

All things considered, the idea of a "community-initiated" game doesn't seem to work (procrastination & issues with design by committee). On the other hand, communities seem to take up & expand existing games well. I reckon that is the way to go.

--Ben

 

[kagato]

Well that's good news! Having someone involved who already has MMO networking experience should make progress a lot easier. Welcome aboard
It was my understanding that this was being done by one person only atm, i.e. it was not a "community project".
That's right... it's me. (See first post in thread)
I'm certainly designing the game myself (with feedback, as I'm sure not all my ideas will be good for MMOs), and I'll see how far I can get with the client on my own, though assistance won't be automatically turned down. The server and comms protocol, however, I have no experience with; having people with prior experience in the field to help with that would be a huge advantage.