ARM vs. X86. Lets vote

[EssoAir]

This thread is basically making it sound like we get a choice between x86 or ARM where everything else (cost, performance, power consumption, GPU, peripherals, everything) is equal. No way is that going to be the case. The only meaningful poll you can make here is "do you demand ARM is used at all costs" or "do you demand x86 is used at all costs." Which are both extreme viewpoints.

Agreed. They are extreme

 

[ghostpatch]

This thread is basically making it sound like we get a choice between x86 or ARM where everything else (cost, performance, power consumption, GPU, peripherals, everything) is equal. No way is that going to be the case. The only meaningful poll you can make here is "do you demand ARM is used at all costs" or "do you demand x86 is used at all costs." Which are both extreme viewpoints.

the poll does not provide a timeframe and as far as I know we don't have a timeframe for the developmant of the Pandora successor. It could be next week, next month,12 months and so on. Who knows what Intel comes up with in the future. For me the vote is merly about the architecture and not whats passible and what isn't at the moment

 

[F_Slim]

It's a hypothetical question under the assumption that cost, power consumption, speed and so on of ther overall device would be the same in the end. I find it quite meaningful that way, since it comes down to the restrictions and possibilities the average user would experience with either archtitecture.

 

[WizardStan]

I don't know where you got the strange idea that I want to run Windows natively on the device?

Because you said "many different" operating systems, which I took to specifically mean more than what we'd otherwise get on ARM, otherwise there'd be no point in mentioning that as a benefit to x86. The fact that we already have many different operating systems, with any open source one being theoretically possible if someone wants to do the work leads me to conclude that you must have been talking about closed source operating systems because, again, otherwise there's no point in mentioning it as a benefit of x86 vs ARM if it can be run on either.But lets suppose you were talking about Ubuntu or something that isn't immediately available on the current Pandora: everything that I said for Windows holds true anyway. You wouldn't just be able to download the desktop ISO and install it, someone would still need to do work in order to make it compatible with the P2 even if it had an x86. The difference between Windows and Ubuntu is that at least with Ubuntu it would be possible, possibly even as simple as rebuilding the kernel for our boot loader, whatever that may end up being.

So exactly as I said, using x86 would not automatically give you any additional operating systems at all, some work would always have to be done. With an x86 the work becomes simpler, possibly trivial, but still requires someone to maintain it. In that respect, it's possible to build pretty much any open source operating system for an ARM based system. Even ReactOS has a partially working ARM build.

So the argument that x86 is better than ARM because there are "many operating systems" is wrong, there are already many operating systems that can be run with no reason to suspect there'll be any fewer with an ARM based P2. Even the argument that there will be more on x86 vs ARM is steeped in a lot of problems. Attempting to argue anything about which operating systems will and will not run on a future P2 depending on the CPU it houses is bad, operating system is too low level to speak with any authority. The only argument that holds water is the software to be run on the operating systems: the Ubuntu ARM repo is very different from the Ubuntu x86 repo.

 

[Binky]

^This.

Without Microsoft's blessing (Ha!), it is going to be very difficult and inconvenient to get Windows on an x86 P2. Possibly so difficult that (  people_who_want_to_run_windows ∩ people_with_enough_knowledge_to_do_so ) = ∅

Trying to use closed-source software designed for desktops will probably be as fun as working with the pandora's wifi chip firmware / nub controllers / battery management

 

[Linux-SWAT]

i cant believe this is an actual topic worth discussing....

And there's tons of them.

 

[Askarus]

It's a hypothetical question under the assumption that cost, power consumption, speed and so on of ther overall device would be the same in the end. I find it quite meaningful that way, since it comes down to the restrictions and possibilities the average user would experience with either archtitecture.

Right.

Of course Exophase is right but this thread is ment to get the spirit of the community which Architecture they prefer.

 

[Exophase]

I don't like increasing the illusion that anyone gets to choose CPU architecture :/ People are really thinking there's this choice that doesn't exist. It's like making a thread about what you would prefer, a GPU that supports this API or that API, open source drivers or not.. these are not things anyone gets to pick in isolation. You choose hardware that comes with a whole bunch of things attached to it.

I know what the response is going to be already, how the Pandora 2 spam forum was always garbage and just some outlet for people to fantasize. But I don't think so. Threads about how people feel about SD vs microSD, how thick the unit should be, screen size and resolution, TV-out support, RAM capacity, keyboard layout, etc - these are things that are actually useful in driving real design decisions. But driving this big focus on this (let's face it, pretty emotional) war on ISA while ignoring the real design parameters that must be considered with it is IMO counter-productive and even harmful. I hate seeing all these arguments forming that are totally ignoring the relevant stuff

There are now several threads about this and I'm not petitioning for this one to be closed or anything like that, I just don't get the point. Like I said before, I could see some point in a poll that determines how many people feel so strongly about ISA that they demand it's included at the expense of everything else, if all the potential buyers absolutely require ARM or x86 for some reason it'd be good to know that. But that's not what this thread is.

 

[ghostpatch]

ease up Exo, its just smalltalk   

Talking about useless stuff is fun too

I don't care much but since I was asked I simply took a stand. The Linaro guys are working on the points I dislike about ARM (don't get me wrong I like ARM).

 

[_jr_]

For personal reasons I prefer intel outside, but if the x86 SoC is designed and built by someone else I don't care.

 

[Klumpen]

I simply do not care whats inside, if I can run the old PNDs

and more hardware hungry ones for 10hours from my (not mini not micro) SD-cards.

...and I think, that most of the smalltalking people here do not really care too.

 

[b_o_b]

Klumpen is correct, I am pretty sure most folks chose Arm so there will be backward compatibility with Pandora software. So maybe the poll should be "how much do you care about backward compatibility" and maybe give it some kind of rating. 

From "don't care" to "compatibility should be the main focus". 

I would be voting for "main focus" and "almost at all costs" 

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

Don't make P2 backward compatible so my P1 becomes antique and collectible item so I could sell it for a million dollar later

 

[Exophase]

Klumpen is correct, I am pretty sure most folks chose Arm so there will be backward compatibility with Pandora software. So maybe the poll should be "how much do you care about backward compatibility" and maybe give it some kind of rating. 

From "don't care" to "compatibility should be the main focus". 

I would be voting for "main focus" and "almost at all costs"

Being ARM doesn't guarantee compatibility with 100% of software, and being x86 doesn't mean no compatibility possible (for example if they introduced fat binary support into PND to support both, and PNDs were updated before Pandora 2 came out)

 

[Klumpen]

Don't make P2 backward compatible so my P1 becomes antique and collectible item so I could sell it for a million dollar later

I honestly never thought about that.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

Don't make P2 backward compatible so my P1 becomes antique and collectible item so I could sell it for a million dollar later

I honestly never thought about that.

...or throw it in the trash if no one buys it for a dollar

 

[Linux-SWAT]

What Craig may do.

 

[fusion_power]

Such a vote actualy needs more infos. What ARM chips are possible, what X86 chips are possible? An more detailed facts sheet would be also a good idea to compare the ARM and x86 leagues. pro's/con's etc... Otherwise it would be just an question of your personal preference instead of the choosing what's the BEST for Pandora 2.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Let's open another thread !

 

[Binky]

Let's not?