It's the keyboard layout.


I've trimmed down my "final keyboard proposal" list to three, though they all come from some base layout (ible 3). The first one is my take on _wb_'s international layout. The second one is most "Saber" compliant, if ED wants two keyboard shifts and only hardware buttons up top. The third one allows some non-hardware buttons up top (Dedicated Esc and some extra mouse buttons).

I apologize in advance to all DosBox users.
What about us non-DosBox-users that still think maintaining shift pairs is a good idea? Where's my apology?
 You'll have to get it from ED.

  • The keyboard should be standard enough to be used by every normal user
  • It should be balanced between text typing and coding
  • It should have most of the keys a normal keyboard has (i.e. Pandora keyboard has issues with DosBox).
  • The main languages used where the Pandora sold are English, French and German. It should support these languages as good as possible (with English being the main one)
  • We should have a maximum of three characters per key: One with a single keypress, one with Shift and one with AltGr (which replaces the old Fn-Key)
  • The most-used keys should get the best positions
From the OP.  ED doesn't want any shift+fn (i.e. shift+meta) keys on the Pyra -- at least not visible.  (Unless he's changed his mind.) I have decided I like that simplicity of aesthetic, too. I don't mind putting e.g. {} on shift+[], but it just won't be visible. And to quote Saber with the directions people are going:

I think it's time we reacquaint ourselves with ED's initial post as some of these "compromise" layouts have diverted from his opinions, which I think carry a lot more weight toward the final layout then they are being credited for. Do what you like though.
 
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Here is another layout proposal, "_wb_ MES-1 v3": http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6f135df980d207314b9ea7a87449ace8
 
Here is its MES-1 coverage chart: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aqRslAbe1zR3fG6bPEE59ddXwNFuczD6pldTa1i0xaw/edit?usp=sharing
 
Features:

  • No more dedicated ' " key
  • Instead, dedicated ` ~ and dedicated Tab
  • Shift and Meta back on the left, punctuation symbols back to the right
  • all punctuation symbols are close to their expected US-QWERTY location (except for underscore)
  • Uses Shift+Meta for some of the less important symbols
  • Uses Meta-only for the commonly needed symbols: ; ' : " - + =
  • Excellent multi-lingual support: German, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Dutch are perfectly covered
  • It looks a bit cluttered but I think it's still reasonable: only 2 labels on most keys, some have 3 (I added explicit diacritics to `~,<.> but those can be replaced by ◌ or some other symbol)

More keys could be grouped in the US-QWERTY way: - and _, = and +, ; and :. But since + and : are quite frequently used punctuation symbols (they are primary keys on some keyboards!), I think it's better to not have those one Shift+Meta. For { } | this is less of an issue, since those are not used at all for normal language use. While question-mark (?) is used in normal language use and I put it also at Shift+Meta, I think that's OK because 1) it is not a primary key on any keyboard and 2) it is on Shift+Meta+Space, which should be an easy combo.

It has all the symbols labeled that you can find on standard keyboards:

  • of course the standard US-QWERTY keyboard as used in the USA, India, Australia, English Canada, Hong Kong, New Zealand, South Africa, Malaysia, Singapore and Philippines
  • the standard German QWERTZ keyboard as used in Germany and Austria
  • the standard Swiss QWERTZ keyboard as used in Switzerland (with the exception of the AltGr symbols ¬  ¦ ¢ which are not very important; you can use the Compose sequences -,   !^  /c  if you really need them)
  • the standard French AZERTY keyboard as used in France (with the exception of  ù, which can be made with `u, and ², which can be made with ˆ2)
  • the standard Belgian AZERTY keyboard as used in Belgium (see French, also ³ is missing but it can be made with ˆ3)
  • the standard Canadian French QWERTY keyboard as used in parts of Canada (with the exception of their weird AltGr symbols ± ¢ ¤ ¬ ¦ ² ³ ¼ ½ ¾ ¶, for which you need to use Compose sequences +-   /c   xo   -,   !^   ^2  ^3   14  12   34   PP)
  • the standard Danish QWERTY keyboard as used in Denmark (except for ¤ ½ ¦ )
  • the standard Dutch QWERTY keyboard as used in The Netherlands (except for ¬ ¹ ² ³ ¼ ½ ¾ ¶ ¢ ± ¦ « »)
  • the standard Italian QWERTY keyboard as used in Italy (except for ù ò, for which you have to  type `u  `o)
  • the standard Norwegian QWERTY keyboard as used in Norway (except for the rarely used universal currency symbol ¤)
  • the standard Portuguese QWERTY keyboard as used in Portugal (except for º ª « »)
  • the standard Portuguese QWERTY keyboard as used in Brazil (except for º ª « » ¢ ₢ ¬ ¹ ² ³)
  • the standard Spanish QWERTY keyboard as used in Spain (except for º ª ¡¿)
  • the standard Spanish QWERTY keyboard as used in Mexico, Central America and South America (except for ¬ ¡¿)
  • the standard Swedish QWERTY keyboard as used in Sweden (except for ½ ¤)
  • the standard Turkish QWERTY keyboard as used in Turkey (except for ½ and ı ğ ş for which you have to type ·i  ˇg  ¸s)
  • the standard UK QWERTY keyboard as used in the United Kingdom and Ireland (except for ¬ ¦ and áíóú, for which you have to type ´a ´i ´o ´u)
  • the Apple-standard UK QWERTY keyboard as used by Apple users in the UK (except for ±)
  • layers 1-4 of the Neo layout are mostly covered (layer 1 fully, layer 2 fully except ℓ » « “ ” „ — , layers 3 and 4 only the 'normal' stuff)

There is room at Shift+°, Shift+µ and Shift+_;:+= for additional symbols like ¬ ¡ ¿ « » ½ ¢, but I don't think it is a good idea to add those, since they are rarely used by most people and there are easy to remember Compose sequences for those ( -,   !!  ??  <<  >>  12  /c, respectively).

Let me know what you think! Here is the link again:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6f135df980d207314b9ea7a87449ace8
 
ED doesn't want any shift+fn (i.e. shift+meta) keys on the Pyra -- at least not visible. (Unless he's changed his mind.)
It was actually two thoughts in one: he only wants three characters per key with a stated implication that that means single, shift, and AltGr. He, like myself and so many others, probably didn't consider "shift"+"fn" as a viable alternative. Naively it seems like that would require 4 characters but as has been demonstrated several times it is entirely possible to keep to the three character limitation.So has he changed his mind? I don't know, he has literally said absolutely nothing keyboard related since he started the thread. All these new ideas which challenge his original goals in ways he probably didn't even consider and therefore could possibly be better and he's gone radio silent. I don't think it's fair to say "what ED wants" anymore because there has simply been so many improvements in many different directions that it would be madness to assume that what he wants now is exactly what he wanted before these entirely new ideas were presented.
 
So in summary, I have made the following multilingual proposals so far:

_wb_ MES-1 v1 ("GÀHÖJÄ") : http://www.keyboard-...551349c3ee89ba2    [MES-1 coverage chart: https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing]

Meta/Shift on the right, no labeled Shift+Meta symbols

_wb_ MES-1 v2 ("HÖJÄKÈLÀ") : http://www.keyboard-...aeca6898e6b8244     [MES-1 coverage chart: https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing]

Meta/Shift on the right, does not use Shift+Meta for ASCII symbols (only for ₤ and §)

_wb_ MES-1 v3 ("RÜDÖFÄ") : http://www.keyboard-...b9ea7a87449ace8   [MES-1 coverage chart: https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing]

Meta/Shift on the left, uses Shift+Meta for {}|?, supports Scandinavian languages, every symbol close to US-QWERTY location

Here is one more layout:

_wb_ MES-1 v4 ("GÜVÖBÄNÑ") : http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b6276c5e3640800937bf864eba313d1e

Meta/Shift on the left, based on the previous one but no more Shift+Meta, simple and clean labeling, only major languages, no § µ £ Å Æ Ø

(swapping _ and / in this one would look better, but it would break US-QWERTY positions)
 
Maybe I found a simple solution for german Umlaute and maybe even some other special characters. I don't know, if the multiplexing of the keyboard allows this, but what about typing "a" together with "e" for ä etc. (o+e = ö, u+e = ü) This is meant without any metakey, just "a" and "e" at the same time. Even if you fear that this could accidentally activate a special character, I doubt there are a lot of words, that have an "a" following an "e" in them. This way, we would probably spare a lot of special keys and labels. However, I can't tell if this works for other languages, too.
 
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Maybe I found a simple solution for german Umlaute and maybe even some other special characters. I don't know, if the multiplexing of the keyboard allows this, but what about typing "a" together with "e" for ä etc. (o+e = ö, u+e = ü) This is meant without any metakey, just "a" and "e" at the same time. Even if you fear that this could accidentally activate a special character, I doubt there are a lot of words, that have an "a" following an "e" in them. This way, we would probably spare a lot of special keys and labels. However, I can't tell if this works for other languages, too.
This mechanism would not work. There are words that contain AE/EA, OE/EO, UE/EU in many languages, and we need to be able to type them without risking to trigger the Ü Ö Ä mechanism. Also, what would happen if you press e.g. A and hold it? Would it do nothing until you release it, producing "a" if you just release it and "ä" when you press E? On a normal keyboard, pressing A and holding it does this: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa…

Also, pressing A and E together is hard to do because both are left-thumb keys.
 
I think it will be easier if everything is behind (at most) one modifier (besides things like Ä, which should be Shift+Meta).  Shift+Meta might not sound like a pain for stuff like ?:"{}_+~ but can we be sure that the Shoulder buttons feel comfortable hitting them both at the same time?  Or can we guarantee those symbols to be on the opposite side of the keyboard from the mashable Shift+Meta?  (Even still I would prefer the use of shoulder modifiers.)  I use those symbols for coding, and would prefer just one modifier.

I think the layout I like best of _wb_'s latest is:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b6276c5e3640800937bf864eba313d1e

because it doesn't put all the symbols in the not-easy-to-hit center region.
 
can we be sure that the Shoulder buttons feel comfortable hitting them both at the same time?
If they're on opposite buttons it'll be no worse than hitting ctrl-shift on the Pandora. And perhaps even having them on the same side is still easy to press both.The exact placement of the shoulder buttons is something we can decide later, actually: which is which is only tangentially related to the shift+meta concept and once ED finally rejoins the conversation we can ask him to test on his prototype just how easy it would be to press such combinations.

Or can we guarantee those symbols to be on the opposite side of the keyboard from the mashable Shift+Meta?
Yes. We are designing the keyboard as we see fit. That is absolutely something we can guarantee.
 
I hope the shoulders can be pressed in all combinations, because I want to be able to do Ctrl+Alt+something and Ctrl+Shift+something, where "something" can be an F-key or some other Meta-key like + or -.

Also I think we should decide the exact placement of the shoulder buttons early enough: I want them to be labeled with their modifier symbol.
 
I hope the shoulders can be pressed in all combinations, because I want to be able to do Ctrl+Alt+something and Ctrl+Shift+something, where "something" can be an F-key or some other Meta-key like + or -.

Also I think we should decide the exact placement of the shoulder buttons early enough: I want them to be labeled with their modifier symbol.
Shoulders, D-Pad and the game buttons are all using their own GPIOs so I'd say it's a fair guess to say that there would be no issue with combinations.
 
I hope the shoulders can be pressed in all combinations, because I want to be able to do Ctrl+Alt+something and Ctrl+Shift+something, where "something" can be an F-key or some other Meta-key like + or -.


Also I think we should decide the exact placement of the shoulder buttons early enough: I want them to be labeled with their modifier symbol.
Shoulders, D-Pad and the game buttons are all using their own GPIOs so I'd say it's a fair guess to say that there would be no issue with combinations.
I mean ergonomically.
 
Also I think we should decide the exact placement of the shoulder buttons early enough
Agreed that they need to be defined early since they need to be printed to them (probably), but assuming that all combinations are comfortable enough I don't think keyboard layouts should hinge on their exact placement. If the keyboard is good "if only shift were on the opposite side" then that's something that's pretty easy to change without affecting the rest of the layout. Getting hung up on whether we need a specific modifier on the left or right is an exercise in futility, I think.
 
shoulder buttons

I want them to be labeled with their modifier symbol.
From the pictures I've seen, the shoulder buttons are going to be relatively small compared to the giant flapping paddles of the Pandora.

Do you envision these labels being ON the shoulder buttons where someone would have to turn the unit around to read them?

Maybe have them printed on stickers that get applied to the vertical portion of the lower case? Stickers because printing to that surface would be very expensive.

Potentially putting the labels for the shoulders on the lower hinge area of the screen bezel would require only 1 sticker with all 4 labels on it?

Sticker doesn't have to 'look like crap'. Could be white letters on clear tape.
 
From the pictures I've seen, the shoulder buttons are going to be relatively small compared to the giant flapping paddles of the Pandora.

Do you envision these labels being ON the shoulder buttons where someone would have to turn the unit around to read them?


Maybe have them printed on stickers that get applied to the vertical portion of the lower case? Stickers because printing to that surface would be very expensive.


Potentially putting the labels for the shoulders on the lower hinge area of the screen bezel would require only 1 sticker with all 4 labels on it?


Sticker doesn't have to 'look like crap'. Could be white letters on clear tape.
I'm for putting stickers on the bottom next to the screen. Over the bottom screws. Of course they should be pretty dark.
 
Maybe I found a simple solution for german Umlaute and maybe even some other special characters. I don't know, if the multiplexing of the keyboard allows this, but what about typing "a" together with "e" for ä etc. (o+e = ö, u+e = ü) This is meant without any metakey, just "a" and "e" at the same time. Even if you fear that this could accidentally activate a special character, I doubt there are a lot of words, that have an "a" following an "e" in them. This way, we would probably spare a lot of special keys and labels. However, I can't tell if this works for other languages, too.
That reminds me of every time i have to spell my name when my locale isnt supported. Not good. Anything besides typing letter for letter, where letter is at the key people are used to, is a non starter.

But before all that, this way of doing it of doing it fails, not because it isnt logical, but because its unexpected. You only treat it differently because you already are in the know, thats where most people arent.

We cant expect people to expect.
 
Maybe I found a simple solution for german Umlaute and maybe even some other special characters. I don't know, if the multiplexing of the keyboard allows this, but what about typing "a" together with "e" for ä etc. (o+e = ö, u+e = ü) This is meant without any metakey, just "a" and "e" at the same time. Even if you fear that this could accidentally activate a special character, I doubt there are a lot of words, that have an "a" following an "e" in them. This way, we would probably spare a lot of special keys and labels. However, I can't tell if this works for other languages, too.
That reminds me of every time i have to spell my name when my locale isnt supported. Not good. Anything besides typing letter for letter, where letter is at the key people are used to, is a non starter.

But before all that, this way of doing it of doing it fails, not because it isnt logical, but because its unexpected. You only treat it differently because you already are in the know, thats where most people arent.

We cant expect people to expect.
So you are saying that 'people' who speak your language, Norwegian (which is 0.07% of the world population, slightly less than 1% of the EU), who buy a niche electronic handheld device of which probably only a couple of thousands will be sold, will expect it to ship with dedicated, primary keys labeled as Å, Ø and Æ (where the Ø is on the left of Æ, mind you, not the other way around like those Danish barbarians!) ?

In that case: OMG, the Norwegian 'people' have unrealistic expectations!
 
shoulder buttons


I want them to be labeled with their modifier symbol.
From the pictures I've seen, the shoulder buttons are going to be relatively small compared to the giant flapping paddles of the Pandora.


Do you envision these labels being ON the shoulder buttons where someone would have to turn the unit around to read them?


Maybe have them printed on stickers that get applied to the vertical portion of the lower case? Stickers because printing to that surface would be very expensive.


Potentially putting the labels for the shoulders on the lower hinge area of the screen bezel would require only 1 sticker with all 4 labels on it?


Sticker doesn't have to 'look like crap'. Could be white letters on clear tape.
Stickers would be fine, and would have the advantage of being visible without having to turn the unit around.

Labels ON the shoulder buttons (not printed but engraved, like the L and R on the Pandora shoulder buttons) would also be nice. Of course those labels would have to be small.

and   for Shift and Meta should be small enough for an engraved label on the button itself, for Ctrl and Alt it is probably not possible to have their name spelled out. We could use the ISO symbols for Ctrl and Alt, which are and , but then I would suggest to also use those symbols together with the spelled out name on the keyboard itself.

Like this: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4867cad30e3b9b4d567961dc83c6a061
 
Also I think we should decide the exact placement of the shoulder buttons early enough
Agreed that they need to be defined early since they need to be printed to them (probably), but assuming that all combinations are comfortable enough I don't think keyboard layouts should hinge on their exact placement. If the keyboard is good "if only shift were on the opposite side" then that's something that's pretty easy to change without affecting the rest of the layout. Getting hung up on whether we need a specific modifier on the left or right is an exercise in futility, I think.
Yes, I agree. But unless there is a good reason to do something else, I would maintain backwards compatibility with the Pandora and let L1 be Shift and R1 be Ctrl. Then there are only two possibilities left: L2=Meta, R2=Alt, or L2=Alt, R2=Meta. The former makes most sense to me (since Shift and Meta 'belong together', they're both 'meaning-altering' modifiers, like Ctrl and Alt 'belong together' as 'shortcut-forming' modifiers in my mind), but the latter would be better if it turns out that pressing L1 and L2 simultaneously is hard to do.

Out of all the 4! = 24 possible ways to do the shoulder modifier placements, only two remain if we go for Pandora-compatibility (and I don't see why we should not go for compatibility, in this particular matter). That simplifies things :)
 
Maybe I found a simple solution for german Umlaute and maybe even some other special characters. I don't know, if the multiplexing of the keyboard allows this, but what about typing "a" together with "e" for ä etc. (o+e = ö, u+e = ü) This is meant without any metakey, just "a" and "e" at the same time. Even if you fear that this could accidentally activate a special character, I doubt there are a lot of words, that have an "a" following an "e" in them. This way, we would probably spare a lot of special keys and labels. However, I can't tell if this works for other languages, too.
That reminds me of every time i have to spell my name when my locale isnt supported. Not good. Anything besides typing letter for letter, where letter is at the key people are used to, is a non starter.

But before all that, this way of doing it of doing it fails, not because it isnt logical, but because its unexpected. You only treat it differently because you already are in the know, thats where most people arent.


We cant expect people to expect.
 
So you are saying that 'people' who speak your language, Norwegian (which is 0.07% of the world population, slightly less than 1% of the EU), who buy a niche electronic handheld device of which probably only a couple of thousands will be sold, will expect it to ship with dedicated, primary keys labeled as Å, Ø and Æ (where the Ø is on the left of Æ, mind you, not the other way around like those Danish barbarians!) ?


In that case: OMG, the Norwegian 'people' have unrealistic expectations!
Flurgs are people too you know. We get our own, sometimes its a common one for germannic scandinavia, where those non-barbarian danes get theirs atop ours. Doesnt matter though, even though its the same issue for all.


It doesnt help a technology buisiness that rural parts of india and china skew the numbers.


This is from a betatest e-mail i just got from Netgear, available in: Australia, Austria, Belgium,  France, Germany, Hong Kong,  Ireland, Italy,  Netherlands, Nordic, Spain, Switzerland, Singapore, and UK


Sure Canada and the US should be there, but you get the sense that the selection includes exactly what they estimate their market to be.

Edit: I think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore#Languages http://gate2home.com/Chinese-Keyboard  looks promising. China is a no-go btw, other than gray imports, because its impossible to sell foreign electronics there. Their standards are much more rigid than ours. Its viable for top luxury european made products, but they again do quite well. Mostly because the wealthy chinese dont want chinese products.

Something that stems from there being a huge difference between internal products, and products made for export. With "made in china" on both of them, they sort of tarnish their own brand in the mind of the economic elite I think.
 
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