Finally, a bit more news!


Have you read previous messages from ED in this thread? I think you haven't because he has answered cearly most questions you ask.

Note this:
  • He could fill bankrupt for Pyra project (and this project is bankrupt) but he doesn't want to do so, and he continues shipping Pyra machines losing money on each.
  • He can't ship them faster because he need to compensate loss with other sells form his shop.
  • ¿How is he going to raise capital and hire engineers, etc if this is bankrupt and losing money on each Pyra he ships?
On other side (this is my point of view) now you can't raise a crowdfunding campaign: 1st/ Who would trust on it after a lot of years delay; All crowdfunding news would emphasize that bad experience with deadlines after years waiting. 2nd/ It would raise funds mainly for new orders/model, but it wouldn't solve problem for existing paid orders. 3th/ How much money would he need to ask for a Pyra 2 to make it attractive today to more people and cover previos Pyra order loss (so you can ship Pyra 2 to those old orders)? I think it would be too much to attract new backers.
You've just explained exactly why he needs crowdfunding while assuming he can't.It wouldn't raise funds for new orders since that wouldn't be part of the crowdfunding (or if it was, it might not be the most popular option as you suggested due to mistrust). The funding would be for those with existing orders to get a guaranteed assembly and shipping date. He doesn't need to promise anyone else a new order. Those with pre-orders were going to be asked for more money upon shipping any way, so crowdfunding just allows ED to get that money early and charge a bit more to cover the costs. Surely I can't be the only one waiting on a pre-order who would pay more to get a guaranteed assembly/shipping date that actually gets met.
 
Surely I can't be the only one waiting on a pre-order who would pay more to get a guaranteed assembly/shipping date that actually gets met.
If you think it's a good idea, why not drum up support, and make a poll to find out. I can see both sides of the argument, but can't quite see how it would help ED with existing pre-orders; people already feel that they have already spent a lot of money, and waited for a long time. For ED to start a crowd funding campaign to ask for money, after 7 years, only to say that he needs more of our money and patience is only going to give him more stress and responsibility, and unlikely to be received by most people in a favorable way.

My inclination, if anything, would be to stick with donations (which you can do so through the store's site already), or for ED to start a (something like) Patreon (which I feel doesn't need to make any promises for anything other than perhaps a chance to win vouchers at his store, or something (although he/s already expressed that he/s not interested in that either).
 
Bring back the high money insta buys.
This worked with the pandora.
 
My expectation was that seven years after placing my preorder, I would have a Pyra in my hands.

Yes, I knew there was risk. Yes, it was my decision to pay in bitcoin. Yes, a few Pyras have shipped, so it's not completely vapourware. Let me change my assessment from "vapourware" to "in development hell".

We paid you money because we thought you could deliver a product. I am upset because you are not taking responsibility for the lack of progress. Infrequent updates where you say "things have gone wrong, but I'm still doing stuff -- please keep waiting" is simply not good enough.

ED, you need to have a very honest conversation with us about exactly WHEN you think you can fulfill remaining preorders. You need to set a deadline, or else admit you cannot deliver. You cannot keep extending the project indefinitely. I genuinely want you to succeed, and I want a Pyra in my hands that I can use and show to my friends. But I have come to the conclusion that if this were possible, you would have done it by now.

The obvious problem is manpower. You simply don't have the human resources this project requires. You need to raise some capital, hire some engineers, and devote more of your own time to this thing.

TL;DR You cannot keep asking us to wait.
ah, let me give you an advice as someone who did this already with the Pandora: Just cancel your preorder and forget this project. It will not make you happy, even if you will have it in your hands.
If you want to show it to your friends, then I will repeat what my friends thought about the Pandora: Ugly, big and too less power. That was their opinion about the Pandora.
You will never get an exact release date. And even if you get one, it's probably wrong. It's not only his fault. Currently, it's not easy to get accurate delivery dates for microcontrtollers as a small company. Or any kind of honest delivery dates from your supplier.
He will not get more manpower on this project, because he is not able to pay them. I honestly thought, that ED would give up after the release of the Pandora because of the whole problems he had with it. Now, he has the same with additional new ones.
If you really want a Pyra, you need exactly one thing: Patient (and a lot of it). Maybe you have to wait another 7 years for it. But i am pretty sure in one thing: you will be disappointed.
 
One thing's for sure. It's better to show your friends a Steamdeck or a Rogally than a Pyra. Especially when you have these average dull friends...
 
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The first thing my friends told when I showed them the Pandora was: "Why they put there a physical keyboard, it's dumb !! They could have put a second screen on the bottom to have a digital one !!"
... and that was just the "first thing"...

So, in the end I got it because I appreciate it, not to show it around, there are very few people who actually understand the use cases of this device.

EDIT:
now I remember that one day me and my friends were waiting for something, some of them were looking at their phones, others were just walking around, so I started playing "Metal Slug" with the Pandora... at some point all of them were watching at me playing, and wanted to try it... i told them that they could have played the game with their smartphones, because they were always comparing the Pandora to those, but they was preferring physical buttons and not covering the display with their fingers...
 
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Spoiler: That ain't suspend, the CPU is still running and reacting on peripheral interrupts. The ARM architecture does not implement an actual suspend mode. You can't just turn the CPU off, instead you tell it to wait for the next interrupt or other event to happen, which means that the power consumption on its lowest power mode largely depends on how well you manage to reduce the interrupt load from peripherals by making sure they're powered down when not needed as well. Turning off the CPU always requires a full boot sequence afterwards - unlike the ACPI- and UEFI-assisted suspend mode on x86 platforms, which causes a whole lot of issues if not done properly instead of just using more power.

It seems you mix up SUSPEND with HIBERNATE (on some old times on PC they were also called "Suspend to RAM" and "Suspend to disk", but "suspend' is not exclusive to PC).

When you put it on suspend, it is only waiting for an interrupt or signal waking it. It is not off but it consumes near zero or very very low power. Depending on CPU/hard technology it changes a lot of (on some "strange" CPUs clock can be stopped, and they can return to operation instantly, others, not having that function, can be in a very very low power consumption and instant on continuing normal operation) but final result is very similar: very very low energy consumption, contents in RAM are there, and instant on after event (or like instant). That event can be pressing on key or a normal key (on some computers only special ON key recover from suspend, as other keys don't generate an interrupt or waking up signal), etc.

Of course if you go to suspend you reduce interrupt load to what can wake up from suspend.

Psion 5mx, with ARM CPU, last a lot of months on suspend.
My Android smartphone last like a month (wireless off).

I know about HIBERNATE from old notebooks: there they turn off all and save contents to second storage (on old times it was HDD, today it would be SSD). Then, to back to normal activity, they load all back; this is not suspend.

PD: On some "simpler" CPU/hard could be is no suspend mode (or very very low CPU power mode) on CPU, and they save some registers and states to RAM and then turn it off, so when it wake up start on CPU and load those registers and states from RAM and device seems to get instantly on. On other side on modern and very complex SOC with tons of components, there are other posibilitiies and some can turn off components on SOC as needed to save power, even when computer is on (for example it can turn on or off auxiliary modules, even cores, even some of them caches, etc). The result is the same: very very low power consumption on suspend and instan on from user view. On all those cases RAM is on all time, so no need to load from second storage. Obviously memory in a system with a small SRAM (static RAM), for example HP 48 (they were sold like advanced calculators, but they are real pocket compyters), consumes less power than a a system with a lot of DRAM (dynamic RAM) like a modern smartphone or Pyra. DRAM needs to be refreshed each x time, so a circuit doing that task must be on each x time.
 
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If you want to show it to your friends, then I will repeat what my friends thought about the Pandora: Ugly, big and too less power. That was their opinion about the Pandora.
.....
you will be disappointed.

Do you buy Pyra or other devices to impress your friends?

I buy Pyra or other devices for the pleasure and/or functionality they give back to me, not to impress friends or other people.

And actually there is no pocket computer like Pyra: real pocket size computer with usable keyboard plus gaming controls. All other small computers are too big, even most of them don't have keyboard (or even worse, some of them have bad keyboards you can't use in a comfortable way because keyboard is too bad and/or device size is too big to use keyboard while while you hold device).

If your friends don't understand those points, they don't think too much and they get used to fashions dictated by others.

This is a TOOL, being as computer or being as console as it has both roles. And beautiful in a tool is on how it can be used for its task. So Pyra is pure beauty.

How is playing console games on a tactile virtual keyboard/controls on a smartphone? Horrible.

How is typing precise text on a virtual keyboard on a smartphone? Bad, a nightmare. And when you type a message it may be unimportant to have typos, changed word, etc, but when you are issuing commands or some serios stuff you can't tolerate those problems, you need the precision a physical keyboard can give you.

I would like there was Pyra competition after this lot of years waiting, but there is not. Steam Deck and similar devices like GPD Win are too big (even some GPD Win had no backlight keyboard), no pocket devices, most of them don't have keyboard. A few have keyboard, for example some GPD Win models, but they are weak and devices too big to hold them with both hands while you type with thumbs so keyboard there is a waste.

About power: it is the more powered "real pocket device" with usable keyboard plus gaming controls I know about. I don't know about other device like this (and I am subscribed to liliputing.com where I get update about pocket devices).
 
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So, in the end I got it because I appreciate it, not to show it around, there are very few people who actually understand the use cases of this device
My wife certainly won't understand it, but she will be happy when I get one. Not least of all that I'll stop harping on about it. She also knows damn sure that it's not an impulse buy (not like a couple of my other purchases in the past).

And yes, buying anything just to "impress" friend is just idiotic. Buy for yourself and and own reasons, and if it's an impulse or an uncertain purchase, make sure that you do not need the money for more important things.
 
I dit buy the Pyra firstly to flex on Mc Donalds: When these whole Apple Yuppies work on there drölfthousend Euro Mac Pro whitouth Ilmunitaded Apple Logo, and i pull out my Notebook whit the Ilumintated Pyra Symbol ^^

Im not that in Brands, i have Apple Stuff (Iphone and Ipad Air) and booth have even cases whit transparent Backplates, but when i make Pyra Video, i try to cover the Iphone Back..

Well when i watch my Views of my Chanel, the Pyra Content is not that succesfull as the other content, my Analogue Pocket GBA Gameplay Video got around 700 Views, while my Pyra Video stuff is around 400 Views in average ..
 
Well we all know that production costs went up from before corona, so why not simply ask for more money for existing preorders? Problem is that the G7 just agreed for more sanctions, meaning the price of oil will raise again and again. With the oil everything will get more expensive.
The result is the more time we wait the higher the price will become, if the calculated loss is nearly 300€ right now it won't stay below 300€ for much longer. That much is certain.

It least create the poll mentioned above. No one could have foreseen the economic situation with the high inflation (at least in europe) and component shortage.
 
so why not simply ask for more money for existing preorders?
Depending on individual circumstances, and how it is approached, that may not go down to well.

Personally, I've donated a few times already, and would have done so again last week, but there was some problem with the PayPal authentication, and after that the button to proceed with the payment was greyed out. Will try again later this week though.

Asking for more money on top of that may feel a little insulting. Perhaps charge a premium for special merch, spare parts, autographed items, etc...
 
Oookay, quite a few posts to reply to, let's start :)

My expectation was that seven years after placing my preorder, I would have a Pyra in my hands.

Yes, that was my expectation as well. If I would've known upfront that it will become another trip to hell and (hopefully) back, I wouldn't even have started it. So we're on the same side here.

Yes, I knew there was risk. Yes, it was my decision to pay in bitcoin. Yes, a few Pyras have shipped, so it's not completely vapourware. Let me change my assessment from "vapourware" to "in development hell".

That is correct, and something I had hoped we wouldn't run into - but it happened and therefore I've thought about various solutions and how to move forward.

We paid you money because we thought you could deliver a product. I am upset because you are not taking responsibility for the lack of progress. Infrequent updates where you say "things have gone wrong, but I'm still doing stuff -- please keep waiting" is simply not good enough.

Well, basically I took responsibility from the very beginning - by not locking your payment to the Pyra, as it is usually the case with other crowdfunded projects.
Whenever you think it takes too long and it will never happen, you could simply use the voucher code and buy something else, regardless whether it's a GPD handheld, games or joysticks.
You could also ask for a refund. This takes a bit longer (as I'm still way behind with my eMails), but there was never a problem receiving a refund.

So... what are you expecting?

Taking responsibility for anything that goes wrong does mean you're acknowledging that you owe someone something.

And that's what I'm doing, because...
  • I'm working on the assembly - albeit it's slow we're moving forward. That's for everyone who is still interested.
  • I'm trying to keep everyone in the loop - but not that much happens. Companies are now even slower than before (so case coating took 2 months!), Fixes are happening, but also take a while (like the ongoing AESS Fix). They also do cost money, so there's a bit of a hold whenever I don't have enough spare money left.
  • Everyone can use the voucher code for something else, so I'm taking responsibility in the amount of money I do owe you.
So what kind of responsibility are you expecting?

ED, you need to have a very honest conversation with us about exactly WHEN you think you can fulfill remaining preorders.

And how would that work? I could do that approximately for the first 500 units, as we have the produced boards for these as well and the new cases are currently being coated.
However, we don't know yet how many will have issues, so it's still a guess.

For the next 500, it could only a wild guess, as it depends on the availability of parts.
Heck, I'm trying to start the production of the next 700 Retrode2 for a while now. 2018 this was pretty easy. After placing the order, I could expect to receive the assembled units around 3 - 4 months later.
Since 2021, some parts either have a leadtime of up to 30 months (yes, really!) or need to be bought for a way higher price from a broker (which would double the production costs of the Retrode2).
Production this time is horrible - and it's not only us. I never had problems receiving more finished units from GPD, but I have not really received a significant amount of GPD Win Max 2 since January, as production simply can't keep up.

The Pyra has a LOT more parts compared to the Retrode2, and is a lot more complex. So yeah, no one could do any estimations for those at the moment.

You need to set a deadline, or else admit you cannot deliver.
... and then? What would be different?
The vouchers can already be used to buy something else.
Do you expect me to throw away all the populated PCBs and parts (worth over 120k EUR) if I can't meet that deadline?

It's up to everyone how long he/she still wants to wait, so everyone can set up his own deadline.
My personal deadline is "when I'm dead". And I certainly can't give you an exact date when I'll be dead ;)

You cannot keep extending the project indefinitely. I genuinely want you to succeed, and I want a Pyra in my hands that I can use and show to my friends. But I have come to the conclusion that if this were possible, you would have done it by now.

Yes, so you set your own deadline. What keeps you from using the voucher code for something else or get a refund.
But that doesn't have to be the same for everyone else.

The obvious problem is manpower. You simply don't have the human resources this project requires. You need to raise some capital, hire some engineers, and devote more of your own time to this thing.

Besides the problem that good engineers are hard to find here in Germany, you are aware that this would raise the costs around 10k - 20k per month?
The Pyra will never-ever make that much money, even if we could deliver 1000 a month. It's still a niche product!

The problems are the one I stated, and yes, that's what lead to lacking manpower:

  • Assembling a Pandora took 8 minutes, assembling a proper Pyra case would take 10 minutes (we've tested that with printed cases)
  • Due to the fucked up case / mould, assembly of one unit takes around 30 - 60 minutes, as it needs a lot of manual labour work.
  • The Pandora was assembled directly at the manufacturing facility (Global Componenes). With a rate of 80 EUR per hour, assembly of one Pandora did cost 10 EUR.
  • The same was planned for the Pyra - but that wasn't possible for two reasons:
    • If assembly takes up to 60 minutes, the assembly costs for one unit would be around 120 EUR now (due to raised wages)). For 1000 Pyras, that would be 120k EUR!
    • As assembly is not simply assembling parts but manually CNC'ing them and testing if it does work now, it's not something that can be reliably done by your average person
That's the reason I do that myself whenever I find the time. Paying 120k just for assembly is not viable - and it wouldn't really be possible anyways.
The new cases are improved and lower the amount of manual labour work, so I should be able to do it in 20 minutes instead 60, but it still cannot be done by any random person.
But to create a proper case that can be assembled by anyone would need a complete redesign.

So yes, as I said before: The biggest issue is the case. Would the cases be as easy to assemble as the Pandora was, then I would receive 250 units per week (that's what GC did with the Pandora), and I would not be lacking manpower as I wouldn't have to do anything myself.

The only reason this is not possible is because of the case. Is that understandable?

TL;DR You cannot keep asking us to wait.

I never did. I always left the decision up to anyone how long he/she wants to wait.

It is more important to have more DMIPS or to have better support, new kernels, drivers, proper sleep/suspend mode, less heat inside?

A mixture of both. We spent around 150k to get the OMAP5 CPU boards to the state they are now.
Designing a new CPU PCB would be at least 50k as a guess.
So the next CPU board should really be an upgrade. If the board itself wouldn't be a lot better, it would be worth the money to spend on it's development!

NXP i.MX 8M has less performance using only one core but:

1/ It is 64-bit. I suspect you can't compare DMIPS from 32 bit to 64 bit CPU (of course if you are using 64-bit mode. Note these modes on ARM are separated, i.e. it is not like on Intel x86 where each ISA extending from x to 2x bits add up more instructions to the set mixing all them; on ARM 64 bit is a new ISA different and incompatible from 32 bit old ISA, you can't mix code, CPU is on 32 bit or on 64 bit mode and run very different software on each side).
Yes, 64bit is the only thing we're really missing on the OMAP5. I agree to that, that's basically one of the main reasons I'm looking into possible candidates.

2/ Do you remember the headache it was to support 4GB because that is the theoretical limit for a 32 bit system. No problem on 64 bit CPU mode.

That was a bit different - the kernel was missing LPAE as TI never officially made a 4GB board of the OMAP5. Usually, vendors do include all the code for that in the bootloader / kernel, and that was also planned for the OMAP5, but was only half-finished.

3/ With all cores it is a bit faster but more efficient.

Not necessarily. That depends on the slowest speed the cores can run, whether these have proper sleep modes. It also depends ont he nm the SoC is produced and whether it's designed to be used in a low-power-device.
The same SoC is often available as consumer and automotive version, and the automotive version needs a lot more power and is less efficient.

4/ Sleep/suspend mode is a MUST on a pocket computer. I have a lot of pocket computers since 80's and all of them were great on suspend lasting a lot of time on a charge or battery, some of them months, a few even more than a year. Even my Android smartphone if suspended (instant on but wifi/etc off) last a month. In a pocket computer (this is not only a console but a pocket computer) that factor is a must: it is needed it to be instantly on and ready from suspend when you pick up form your pocket. Even 14 hours (when Nikolaus finish on AESS) is ridiculous: you can pick up from your pocket to use it and... no battery :O
Well, there's no suspend on ARM devices, the cores go to a low-power sleep mode where they're still waiting for something to happen (otherwise a smartphone couldn't receive calls or messages anymore).
The OMAP5 can do that, it's just not yet properly configured in software.
The Pandora was no different - it was able to work for about 10 hours with the lid closed. After adding that, it easily worked for 25 hours in sleep mode.

The problem is, that notaz doesn't really have time anymore. He was basically the one awesome developer who made the Pandora as great as it was.
We're missing someone like him on the Pyra. We have a few guys helping out, but there is also more stuff to test / fix on the OMAP5 than on the Pandora.

If we get SmartReflex to work properly incl. RAM low-power mode, that would solve

I know this is hard/bug problem with OMAP5 (mostly used on automotive industry where suspend is not required), and there is no solution for it.

Well, yes and no. The OMAP5 also crashed regularly in powersaving, and that has been fixed a few weeks ago.
Also, TI ran into issues using the TILER as well - so they simply marked that as a hardware issue and their released workaround slowed things down horribly (rotating the screen slowed things down to 15fps - from around 200).
That was the reason we looked into the rotator chip.. until someone from the community took a look and fixed the problem.

So just because TI marks something as broken doesn't mean it really is. It still needs someone to look at though.
There is sense working on a new CPU board if offer much improvement on mentioned aspects. I see them much more important than raw performance.

Yes, that's why I generally like the i.MX and was looking forward to it. But it didn't bring enough improvements compared to the OMAP5 - development of a new PCB will still cost quite a lot!

When Librem 5 and MNT choose that NXP SOC they did for those reasons: good support, LTS and long term availability.

Yes, had we started when they started I would've chosen that one as well. When we started development the i.MX6 had been released and NXP mentioned the next SoC will probably only have an automotive version released.
Back then, the consumer version of the OMAP5 was still planned, no one knew back then we will only get an automotive version...
And yes, it took a few years until a consumer version of the i.MX8 has been released.

You've just explained exactly why he needs crowdfunding while assuming he can't.It wouldn't raise funds for new orders since that wouldn't be part of the crowdfunding (or if it was, it might not be the most popular option as you suggested due to mistrust). The funding would be for those with existing orders to get a guaranteed assembly and shipping date. He doesn't need to promise anyone else a new order. Those with pre-orders were going to be asked for more money upon shipping any way, so crowdfunding just allows ED to get that money early and charge a bit more to cover the costs. Surely I can't be the only one waiting on a pre-order who would pay more to get a guaranteed assembly/shipping date that actually gets met.

I personally dislike crowdfundings which try to raise more and more money later on, unless it's really assured these help stabilize the production. But that can't be assured here, there's so much stuff going on.

@EvilDragon Did the donation page go away?
What I can give doesn't have enough 0's but I'm happy to kick in a bit.
The link at the bottom of the shop page to https://dragonbox.de/en/home/donation-to-the-shop.html says "The product is no longer available"
Yes, I had to update the shop system to a new version and haven't implemented the "pay any amount" plugin yet. That's why it's not available at the moment.

Well we all know that production costs went up from before corona, so why not simply ask for more money for existing preorders? Problem is that the G7 just agreed for more sanctions, meaning the price of oil will raise again and again. With the oil everything will get more expensive.
The result is the more time we wait the higher the price will become, if the calculated loss is nearly 300€ right now it won't stay below 300€ for much longer. That much is certain.

It least create the poll mentioned above. No one could have foreseen the economic situation with the high inflation (at least in europe) and component shortage.

Hm, but I would first like to wait until I've tested how well assembly works with the new cases when I receive them back from coating. I want to be able to assemble units in a reasonable speed before I do something like that.
 
The OMAP5 can do that, it's just not yet properly configured in software.
I can confirm that...just yesterday i was trying another kernel using @hns "makesd" utility.
I have done
makesd pyra-4gb -r https://download.goldelico.com/letux-debian-rootfs/2023/20230503-stretch-9.13-armhf-pyraos.tbz

that created an sdcard with debian stretch using the 5.2.242 kernel.
With my good surprise restart and sleep/suspend worked fine (only if you don't press the keyboard to restart the machine...it worked good pressing pgdown and maybe pgup too...otherway it restart but keyboard was not usable anymore.
Restart works fine and also HDMI (but the screen was cutted on the right and down).
Audio was not working.
 
Well, i got no choice: i have to wait...
There is no alternative to pyra...
I just wanted a Pandora, but because these Parts are not available anymore, there is no pandora anymore.
So, waiting for Pyra, or my death... whatever comes first...

I would like to have enough money to support ED, but atm i just have to turn every coin twice, before spending it...

But yes i'm sure, one day i will get the pyra...
 
It seems you mix up SUSPEND with HIBERNATE (on some old times on PC they were also called "Suspend to RAM" and "Suspend to disk", but "suspend' is not exclusive to PC).
S3 shuts off the entire CPU, it is completely cut off from power, the ATX power supply itself remains in standby mode and only feeds the RAM through the dedicated 5V standby power cable. The RAM contains a copy of the CPU state that is being restored when powering up the CPU again, which is orchestrated via ACPI. This is a concept that simply does not exist in the ARM realm.

If a x86 CPU in Suspend-to-RAM mode would just switch into a reactive ultra low power mode like an ARM CPU, it would wake up a LOT faster. And have less issues with Suspend-to-RAM support being broken all the time.
 
I can confirm that...just yesterday i was trying another kernel using @hns "makesd" utility.
I have done
makesd pyra-4gb -r https://download.goldelico.com/letux-debian-rootfs/2023/20230503-stretch-9.13-armhf-pyraos.tbz

that created an sdcard with debian stretch using the 5.2.242 kernel.
With my good surprise restart and sleep/suspend worked fine (only if you don't press the keyboard to restart the machine...it worked good pressing pgdown and maybe pgup too...otherway it restart but keyboard was not usable anymore.
Restart works fine and also HDMI (but the screen was cutted on the right and down).
Audio was not working.
Yes, actually, we're aiming for the 5.10. Kernel at the moment (as that's the last one that has fully working 3D), but there were also numerous fixes afterwards that shouldn't be too hard to be backported.

We're also using a different kernel config which might break sleep mode and the reboot, who knows.

The problem is that there's no one actually working on the Pyra kernel. Everyone is invited to help here :)
 
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