World Situation

[Dzz]

I would be interested in learning how America's relationship with Israel is percieved within the US. Do Americans feel the Israel/Lebanon conflict is also an American conflict ?

There is certainly no single view. I believe the most common viewpoint is that because of their strong democratic tradition and cultural/religious ties to the US, Israel is an ally. Further, they are an ally commonly thought to be surrounded by hostile enemies and perpetually on the brink of annihilation by those enemies. I do not know enough about the world to know if that perception is true or not, but I think it's the view held by most Americans.

There is certainly a bias in the US where Israel killing 50 Lebanese civilians is an unfortunate side-effect of war but a Hezbulla rocket killing two Israelis is a cowardly terrorist act. I am not personally comfortable with that viewpoint (both sides know they are going to kill innocent civilians as part of their violent acts... how many civilians is it okay to kill if you justify it by saying you were shooting at an enemy combatant?) but I think it is commonly held, in part because that is how most in the US think of the civilian casualties in Iraq.

 

[darkman]

Of course, if every one rigidly adhered to principles based on the 'golden rule' these problems would be eradicated. So I guess you are suggesting some mechanism operating beyond mere cause and effect ? Some spiritual balance that punishes man's bad deeds with disease and famine perhaps ? I would like to roll on the floor laughing at such a 'primitive' notion but I am prone to rare moments when reality appears exactly like that. It is as if I develop an extra sense and it is as real as the other five. Probably due to the fact I rarely experience it, it seems hyper-real. Since language has developed around the five senses there is no way to adequately communicate the experience. If I was religious I would probably rationalise it as a 'vision' and twist it to fit the beliefs I held. As it is I suspect I am just border-line bonkers.
It is interesting to think that if everyone experienced this all the time, we would have a name for it and would have sayings equivalent to 'seeing is believing' associated with it. We don't question our other senses, so if we could actually 'see/sense' Karma all the time, people would behave a lot better.

Don't you think if I murdered someone, that would be a consequence of me breaking that rule? If I stole from someone, wouldn't that be a consequence of breaking, "thou shall not steal?" If I withheld food from someone so that they starved, wouldn't that be a consequence of breaking the "golden rule?" My actions have created an end result? Hasn't someone been effected by my breaking those Commandments? Now fill this world with people like that. Doesn't that create a nice world for us to live in. :huh: I think that this is as far as I can go with such a discussion by keeping it on the material level. Because I feel that you do not believe in anything beyond the natural material unverse. If you did, I would say that I do not necessarily believe in a consequence in our life here while living. Although we do reap the results of good and bad decisions and live with those consequences.

 

[nickspoon]

Morality, I believe, is derived from the foundation of society. In order to live with one another, we needed a set of basic guidelines which evolved from simple requirements for survival and just generally getting along such as not killing each other and not stealing stuff.

How do you determine those guidelines? What do you base them on? You mention "not killing each other." Somehow you would need some way to determine that human life is valuable before you come to the conclusion that it is wrong to kill another person. Are you saying that you think these thoughts evolve within a society and culture?

I believe they evolve as we try to fit in to and hope to dominate the world around us. Society and teamwork was essential for us as, unlike most other animals, we were weak and had nothing special within us except for our intellectual capacity. In order to survive in the world around us, we needed each other. "Safety in numbers", I believe the saying goes. Anyway, a human life was valuable because that particular human may stop you being eaten one day.

And just so you know, I'm very athiest indeed - I don't even believe in free will (but I actually do, because that's how things work, and it all gets very confusing). In my view, everything, even the mind, is governed by natural laws.

 

[LHC]

And just so you know, I'm very athiest indeed - I don't even believe in free will (but I actually do, because that's how things work, and it all gets very confusing). In my view, everything, even the mind, is governed by natural laws.

Free will isn't a religious concept.

 

[nickspoon]

And just so you know, I'm very athiest indeed - I don't even believe in free will (but I actually do, because that's how things work, and it all gets very confusing). In my view, everything, even the mind, is governed by natural laws.

Free will isn't a religious concept.

Didn't say it was, you can believe in free will even if you don't believe in religion, of course. Every religion I know of, however, has free will as part of their beliefs - correct me if I'm mistaken.

Athiest is probably a bad word, actually, but I can't think of a better one.

This philosophy stuff is doing my head in Still, where would we be without random philosophical discussions?

 

[darkman]

Didn't say it was, you can believe in free will even if you don't believe in religion, of course. Every religion I know of, however, has free will as part of their beliefs - correct me if I'm mistaken.

Some believe in predestination. You have no choice. You are either thrown one way or another and can't do anything about it.

edit: typos as usual

 

[nickspoon]

Didn't say it was, you can believe in free will even if you don't believe in religion, of course. Every religion I know of, however, has free will as part of their beliefs - correct me if I'm mistaken.

Some believe in predestination. You have no choice. You are either thrown one way or another and can't do anything about it.

edit: typos as usual

Didn't know that, thanks.

 

[Mr.Jabberwocky]

Of course, if every one rigidly adhered to principles based on the 'golden rule' these problems would be eradicated. So I guess you are suggesting some mechanism operating beyond mere cause and effect ? Some spiritual balance that punishes man's bad deeds with disease and famine perhaps ? I would like to roll on the floor laughing at such a 'primitive' notion but I am prone to rare moments when reality appears exactly like that. It is as if I develop an extra sense and it is as real as the other five. Probably due to the fact I rarely experience it, it seems hyper-real. Since language has developed around the five senses there is no way to adequately communicate the experience. If I was religious I would probably rationalise it as a 'vision' and twist it to fit the beliefs I held. As it is I suspect I am just border-line bonkers.
It is interesting to think that if everyone experienced this all the time, we would have a name for it and would have sayings equivalent to 'seeing is believing' associated with it. We don't question our other senses, so if we could actually 'see/sense' Karma all the time, people would behave a lot better.

Don't you think if I murdered someone, that would be a consequence of me breaking that rule? If I stole from someone, wouldn't that be a consequence of breaking, "thou shall not steal?" If I withheld food from someone so that they starved, wouldn't that be a consequence of breaking the "golden rule?" My actions have created an end result? Hasn't someone been effected by my breaking those Commandments? Now fill this world with people like that. Doesn't that create a nice world for us to live in. :huh: I think that this is as far as I can go with such a discussion by keeping it on the material level. Because I feel that you do not believe in anything beyond the natural material unverse. If you did, I would say that I do not necessarily believe in a consequence in our life here while living. Although we do reap the results of good and bad decisions and live with those consequences.

I don't really understand your response. Perhaps you misunderstood mine ? I agreed that if everyone measured their behaviour against the 'golden rule' then everything would be peachy. Since that is self evident I asked if you are suggesting a mechanism where your destiny is determined by your inner beliefs/moral conduct, whatever. Wether that mechanism be a vengeful god or a property of the universe like gravity, I was just curious.
How did you conclude that I don't believe in anything beyond the material universe ? Most of that quote concerns direct awareness of a spiritual dimension. It is not an uncommon phenomena and is found throughout history in many cultures.
I keep an open mind on wether it is a chemical glitch in the brain or wether such a thing exists and wether we have the capacity to perceive it. I can never discount the possibilty that what I experience is real. It seems as real and natural as sight or any other sense, so I cannot claim to be an atheist. Probably the closest label I could apply to it would pantheism.

 

[gp32rich]

What is wrong with you? I never said what Bin Laden is doing is the right thing. I don't even consider him a muslim. The link about persecution you shared with us talks about radicals. And for your information "Taliban" is not another sect, it's a group of radicals hipocrites that believe everybody should live like prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, lived in his time. What's the proof that you have that people don't actually do those things that you mentioned at the end of your reply? :huh:

And I never said that televangelists were doing the 'right thing'. But that's your perception of Christians and Bin Laden, Taliban etc are Westerners general view of prominent Muslims.


And there is the biggest problem.
The easiest thing for the misinformed to do is to take a minority's actions as the general case.
It just seems to happen much more regularly in religious discussions because religion takes a closed minded viewpoint that doesn't encourage questions or opposing opinions

Thank you for illustrating my point

 

[darkman]

I don't really understand your response. Perhaps you misunderstood mine ? I agreed that if everyone measured their behaviour against the 'golden rule' then everything would be peachy. Since that is self evident I asked if you are suggesting a mechanism where your destiny is determined by your inner beliefs/moral conduct, whatever. Wether that mechanism be a vengeful god or a property of the universe like gravity, I was just curious.
How did you conclude that I don't believe in anything beyond the material universe ? Most of that quote concerns direct awareness of a spiritual dimension. It is not an uncommon phenomena and is found throughout history in many cultures.
I keep an open mind on wether it is a chemical glitch in the brain or wether such a thing exists and wether we have the capacity to perceive it. I can never discount the possibilty that what I experience is real. It seems as real and natural as sight or any other sense, so I cannot claim to be an atheist. Probably the closest label I could apply to it would pantheism.

I think maybe I did misunderstood your response. It was a little unclear to me whether you perceived that there is a supernatural. Maybe I am just a little dense. I do personally believe that your destiny is determined by your inner beliefs. I do not divide the supernatural and the material universe. I believe them to be a unity. I believe this present material universe is a result of the supernatural and is of intelligent design. The phenomena of the world in which we live in is enough for me without having that extra "tingle." (if I may use that term, I do not mean any disrespect) Although there are occasions in history where there have been those extra things that have been more than a "tingle." And I myself have had those extra "tingles" in my own life.

I only began asking some questions in this thread because of or concerning the statements of "blaming wars on religion" and there was some claim that some were "atheists." (Even though they kept bring up the Commandments and the Golden rule) I was very curious as to how they perceived and came to certain conclusions of right and wrong in their own personal life and thinking. I was wanting to know what they used as an absolute to form their conclusions.

 

[gp32rich]

My 'golden rule' is based on Empathy.

I think 'Would I like this to happen to me?' although not in quite so literal a sense
Which then leads to feelings of sorrow for the victim and guilt for the perception of wrong-doing.


I try to live my life so that I feel happy. :lol:
Selfish, huh? :unsure:

 

[nickspoon]

My 'golden rule' is based on Empathy.

I think 'Would I like this to happen to me?' although not in quite so literal a sense
Which then leads to feelings of sorrow for the victim and guilt for the perception of wrong-doing.


I try to live my life so that I feel happy. :lol:
Selfish, huh? :unsure:

Nope - it's quite possible that it's all we live for - we can't help being selfish. However, the fallacy in this is that it can't be presented as fact because you might find, one day, someone who does not work by this principle.

 

[DaveC]

I personally feel that the problems that we have in this world, wars, hunger, mans inhumanity to man, etc, are the consequences of humanity breaking those laws that we speak of. The Commandments. They are a good choice to build a society on and a good basis to establish law for that society. I feel that we are not the product of our environment, but the product of the choices we make. I really think that mans nature is basically contrary to those laws. Meaning that he will try to get away from not obeying them if he can. I only feel that the harm in what you are calling "religion" is from those who twist some things out of context or they follow some misunderstanding.

The commandments are good rules to follow but that is not the point here. The point is that they didn't come from a magic being, they came from other humans.

Those rules came from people that wrote them as guidlines for society to follow. They felt that if those things were followed the world would be a better place. They are still common sense, and if you are not insane agree that they make sense athiest, deist, anything.

But how would you enforce them? Well you can't really, especially back then. So you have to convince people that if you break those rules that something really bad will happen IE burn in hell, and this judge of your behavior is always watching (god). Basically the existance of the bible, the commandments, etc prove only one thing, The existance of the bible, and the commandments.

Religeon always tries to connect real things with the fake to attempt to validate the fake. For example the fact that the bible is a real book, the places in the bible are real, therefore all of it including the part about god is real too. Of course anyone with even a part of a scientific brain know that is a false equation. Intertwining reality with myth does confuse some and is the basis for most conspiracy theories as well.

 

[OMars]

Here are some links that tell the truth about the world situation
9/11 video(it is a bit lengthy)
Iraq info(viewers discretion)

I hope you are all enlightened about this situation, especially supporters of bush and blair.

 

[OMars]

I am assuming a few people watched these video, so what do you think? :huh:

 

[LHC]

I like how you called "Loose Change" "the truth" when in reality it's just a boring conspiracy theory by an angry kid.

Also nobody has two hours to watch boring anti-american propaganda.

 

[tim0391]

I feel that the british troops should not be in afganistan becuase they are sitting ducks you hear on the news nearly every day that another british soldier has died its just a waste i understand the iraq situation but the afgan on i feel is a fallen cause we should pack up and leave and go sit on iran for a while that would stop the lebbonesse being armed to the teeth and there nuclear campaign.

tim

 

[Draken]

This Loose Change movie aired on our primare tv channel (Canvas for those who live in Belgium) recently. I was disgusted by the fact that they showed it without any criticizing, I'd expect more of a channel that is supposed to stand for intelligence.

Still, it got me some laughs...

 

[Yono]

I like how you called "Loose Change" "the truth" when in reality it's just a boring conspiracy theory by an angry kid.

Also nobody has two hours to watch boring anti-american propaganda.

 

[OMars]

I feel that the british troops should not be in afganistan becuase they are sitting ducks you hear on the news nearly every day that another british soldier has died its just a waste i understand the iraq situation but the afgan on i feel is a fallen cause we should pack up and leave and go sit on iran for a while that would stop the lebbonesse being armed to the teeth and there nuclear campaign.

tim

You should think the other way around, bin laden was in afghanistan. Only after America attacked Iraq, al-quaeda moved to iraq as well.