World Situation

[OMars]

If I do not accept your teaching of Islam, what does it say in your Koran about tolerating others that do not hold your beliefs? And never will their whole life?

As far as I am concerned you can decide that. You have that freedom of choice. There are others here that will probably never embrace your Islam teachings. Are you taught to respect others and to tolerate their beliefs?

Actually yes, it's even a sin to make fun of others' religions.

 

[darkman]

We exsist in a physical universe and we are a part of it, so shouldn't there also be laws that govern our own expressions of behavior? So if we step outside of those boundaries there are consequences?

Your previous post suggested you thought that laws governing morality were immutable like the laws governing matter. The laws defining a culture's moral norms are man made.
I agree that the majority of people require an environment that provides them with a set of moral guidelines. As Milgram showed, most people will behave abominably if those around them and those in authority behave badly. A civilized society is one where the majority of people behave in accordance with the 'Golden Rule' i.e. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Even then some people will get what they can at anothers expense if the secular laws allow them to.
Of the ten commandments that relate to inter personal behaviour, these are just examples of instances when breaking the golden rule caused the greatest problems to the tribe.
Killing and stealing were bad things then and they are bad now. Back then adultery was a far more damaging phenomena. The child mortality rate was high, life expectancy was shorter. If your bint was carrying someone elses child it would have been a serious slice of your chance to leave surviving offspring.
It is an odd thing that the bible mentions stoning adulterers yet christian societies no longer do this, while the qu'ran has no mention of it yet islamic societies still execute adulteres that way.

Are you saying that you do accept certain choice parts of Biblical ethics as a foundation for building a civilized society? Sounds like you do.
When I speak of moral laws, I am suggesting that deep down on a subconscious level written in each human being is the “thou shalt not commit murder” for example. It does not mean that we obey that law necessarily, we have freedom to choose. Just as there are physical laws in place that are working in keeping me in my chair, the spacial displacement of our solar system by the earth, there are also laws within ourselves. The difference is within man, as he is given the ability to reason and choose.

I have somewhat studied philosophy in the past and I am a little bit rusty, it has been a few years. I really think that the people responding to this thread are really people that “don't believe there is a God” and therefore just live the way that they want to. Not really atheist, per say. Atheism is really religious in nature involving its own set of beliefs.

I guess if you come from a viewpoint that the physical universe is no more than a impersonal machine filled with chance in which life itself is only a mistake or accident that took place. Man would be considered a glorified animal with super intelligence. You could reason that there are certain laws in our universe only mostly chaos in the overall picture of things. You could conclude, from this, that any moral laws could only be derived form being made up inside of his reasoning.

If you come from the viewpoint that the universe is by design with purpose with the freedom for variety. That the laws of our universe were put into place by an intelligent being. Then you could come to the conclusion that maybe there are also moral laws with consequences. Moral laws that are universal and would apply to everyone on the face of the earth in all of history.

There seems to be in every society the thought of, “thou shalt not commit murder.” We also, every where, find a problem with man's inhumanity to man as we have discussed in this thread.

 

[deadlychicken22]

Yes at but with time religions get distorted. In Islam it is a sin to even think of changing the Koran.

Is this specifically stated in the Koran?

With the bible it's different, there are a huge variety of views and sects with their own version of the Bible.

Yes, there are changes in the Bible by certain groups, but many (most?) christian groups haven't changed what is in the bible since it was first "created" (the bible is, after all, just a collection of letters, poems, and other writings that relate to the christian/jewish religion and its history).

It seems that Bin Laden is taking it too seriously and opts to convert everybody by the use of terror/fear. I find that wrong, I think he should have spread the word instead of killing. Also, Islam is more "accurate" by your mind set because it is the latest of the three main religion. The Koran even mentions the miracles of Christ and other prophets, but it tells the truth.

And how do we know it is the truth? What would make it more "accurate" because it is the newest?

We do not believe anybody is the son of God and don't worship anybody but God. It seems strange to us that you believe that if you send money to televangelists, that your sins will go away.

The christian religion never says anything about giving money to people to get rid of sins. Maybe some group of "christians" believe this, but if we are to accept that as true christianity then you would also have to say that Islam teaches that killing non-believers will somehow give you a free ticket to heaven (or whatever version of heaven you believe in). Neither are true, but both are said to be part of their religions.

It also seems strange that you believe that Christ died for "your sins". Everybody is born pure, and they commit sins and also follow through with good deeds. Which ever ways down the other during Judgement Day will determine your fate.

How do you know everyone is born "pure"? How do you know that will happen on Judgement Day? Your beliefs are as strange to us as ours are to you.

 

[OMars]

It is stated that you can not change the Koran in the Koran. You really just gave me a good reason to explain why Islam is the most accurate - the Koran is not a collection of things, it was written after Muhammad, peace be upon him, was enlightened and taught this "guide" to life. It is an extreme sin to kill somebody for being different, especially for religious reasons. We believe that there is a separate hell for Jews, Christians, and Muslims. We don't believe we are all going to heaven for just being Muslims. I know that everybody is born pure, because they have not done any good or bad to the world and others. Nobody can tell you that you have to spend your whole life repenting for sins you have not committed, being born is not a sin.

 

[deadlychicken22]

the Koran is not a collection of things, it was written after Muhammad, peace be upon him, was enlightened and taught this "guide" to life.

But who was it written by?
Also, because the bible is composed of multiple documents written by multiple people, it has more historical accuracy. Having multiple accounts of the same events make it much more likely that it actually happened than having a single account of the event.

I know that everybody is born pure, because they have not done any good or bad to the world and others.

So "pure" is based off of their deeds.
An interesting thing to think about on this subject is that children aren't taught how to steal, they figure that out on their own, but they have to be taught how to share. Maybe they would eventually figure that out on their own, maybe they wouldn't, I don't know. It seems to me humans are born selfish. Maybe this is "pure" in your eyes, but in mine it isn't.

 

[TelcoLou]

Omars, why do you have Mr Bean as your avatar? I saw an episode where he was in church, falling asleep during the services, nodding off then jerking awake, mumbling through the hymns, trying to hide a freshly-blown-in handkerchief. Seems like the writer(s) of that show was poking fun at the boring rituals associated with Christanity, which would fall under the category of "Actually yes, it's even a sin to make fun of others' religions."

Of course that's just my interpretation of that episode's intent ...

 

[geoque]

Okay, here is my misanthropic, elitist 2 cents worth.

We can sit here for years debating the historic precedence for all the problems of the contemporary world. As I see it, though, everything and everybody is to blame. Ethnicity, religion, socio-economic class, gender and any other subgroup that humans divide themselves into are equally to blame for the current global situation. I am atmittedly an extreme pesimist (glass half full, glass half empty, who cares? the water is so poluted it isn't of any use anyway,) but I am of the opinion that every single living creature is looking out for number one. That self centered motivation for every action inevitably leads to intrusion upon the agendas of other living creatures.


I don't want to single out humans as the sole contributor, either. When I say every living creature, I mean EVERY. For example, I watched a bird eating an apple that had fallen off a tree. Another bird chased that bird off and began pecking at that apple, and then another, and another. Well, you may say, that is just creatures competing for a valuable resource. Maybe, I would then say, but there were at least 20 other apples within a 3 foot radius that were untouched. There was no sense of community well being, fairness, or balance whatsoever. It was pure and simple self centered behavior. I believe said behavior can be traced back all the way to the earliest organisms in existance.

Humans do deserve more of the blame, though, because of the shear magnitude of the destruction we disseminate due to our selfish behavior. Some people argue about the environment, some about social inequity, others about the energy situation. I personally view all these problems as spokes on a wheel. While they seem to distant issues on the outer edge of a common unit, if you follow them to the center, they lead to a single hub: one fucked up future for the entire planet. Crappy analogy, but I think it gets my point accross.

Don't get me wrong, I take as much blame as anyone else should. I don't recycle all I should. I spend too much on my computer habit and not enough on charity. I find religious people annoying. Worst of all, I think babies are ugly, manipulative, and a little stupid(maybe I've gon to far.)

So, to sum up my opinion, everybody is screwed up and everybody shares the blame for the "World Situation." There will never be peace on earth until there are no more living creatures in existance.

End of self righteous, cynical rant.

Please do not see this as any kind of threatening "manifesto" or anything. I am simply venting.

 

[OMars]

Omars, why do you have Mr Bean as your avatar? I saw an episode where he was in church, falling asleep during the services, nodding off then jerking awake, mumbling through the hymns, trying to hide a freshly-blown-in handkerchief. Seems like the writer(s) of that show was poking fun at the boring rituals associated with Christanity, which would fall under the category of "Actually yes, it's even a sin to make fun of others' religions."

Of course that's just my interpretation of that episode's intent ...

If it offends you I will gladly change it. :blink:

 

[TelcoLou]

Omars, why do you have Mr Bean as your avatar? I saw an episode where he was in church, falling asleep during the services, nodding off then jerking awake, mumbling through the hymns, trying to hide a freshly-blown-in handkerchief. Seems like the writer(s) of that show was poking fun at the boring rituals associated with Christanity, which would fall under the category of "Actually yes, it's even a sin to make fun of others' religions."

Of course that's just my interpretation of that episode's intent ...

If it offends you I will gladly change it. :blink:

It should have been offensive to YOU, seeing as they were making fun of religion. <_<

 

[OMars]

Omars, why do you have Mr Bean as your avatar? I saw an episode where he was in church, falling asleep during the services, nodding off then jerking awake, mumbling through the hymns, trying to hide a freshly-blown-in handkerchief. Seems like the writer(s) of that show was poking fun at the boring rituals associated with Christanity, which would fall under the category of "Actually yes, it's even a sin to make fun of others' religions."

Of course that's just my interpretation of that episode's intent ...

If it offends you I will gladly change it. :blink:

It should have been offensive to YOU, seeing as they were making fun of religion. <_<

Are you a religious person? :huh:

 

[Mr.Jabberwocky]

Are you saying that you do accept certain choice parts of Biblical ethics as a foundation for building a civilized society? Sounds like you do.
When I speak of moral laws, I am suggesting that deep down on a subconscious level written in each human being is the “thou shalt not commit murder” for example. It does not mean that we obey that law necessarily, we have freedom to choose. Just as there are physical laws in place that are working in keeping me in my chair, the spacial displacement of our solar system by the earth, there are also laws within ourselves. The difference is within man, as he is given the ability to reason and choose.

I am saying the moral guidlines can be determined by reasoning that if you would not want it done to you then another person is not going to appreciate it either. You don't need a guy wearing a dress to tell you that. You do not have to have it hardwired into your brain to know that you don't want someone to kill you or steal your stuff. If it was hardwired then we would not have the level of free will we do have.
Considering they are three thousand years old, the ten commandments have pretty much stood the test of time. But they are not rocket science. They are common sense. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
The six that pertain to man's behaviour to man are all basically sound today except perhaps coveting stuff. Western consumer society would collapse without the constant desire for stuff. Due to advances in [ spam word ] (infant mortality) and contraception adultery would probably drop down the list to below stealing. Tricky one really. It can cause a lot of distress and break down of families, but it certainly is not as dangerous to the fabric of society as it was 3000 years ago.
I am not convinced we require elaborate religions and all the harmful crap that comes with them to ensure we don't forget what boils down to one simple rule.

 

[TelcoLou]

Omars, why do you have Mr Bean as your avatar? I saw an episode where he was in church, falling asleep during the services, nodding off then jerking awake, mumbling through the hymns, trying to hide a freshly-blown-in handkerchief. Seems like the writer(s) of that show was poking fun at the boring rituals associated with Christanity, which would fall under the category of "Actually yes, it's even a sin to make fun of others' religions."

Of course that's just my interpretation of that episode's intent ...

If it offends you I will gladly change it. :blink:

It should have been offensive to YOU, seeing as they were making fun of religion. <_<

Are you a religious person? :huh:

Not at all, I'm just a nihlistic asshole who likes to start trouble and point out hypocrisy wherever possible.

 

[OMars]

Not at all, I'm just a nihlistic asshole who likes to start trouble and point out hypocrisy wherever possible.

...

 

[darkman]

I am saying the moral guidlines can be determined by reasoning that if you would not want it done to you then another person is not going to appreciate it either. You don't need a guy wearing a dress to tell you that. You do not have to have it hardwired into your brain to know that you don't want someone to kill you or steal your stuff. If it was hardwired then we would not have the level of free will we do have.
Considering they are three thousand years old, the ten commandments have pretty much stood the test of time. But they are not rocket science. They are common sense. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
The six that pertain to man's behaviour to man are all basically sound today except perhaps coveting stuff. Western consumer society would collapse without the constant desire for stuff. Due to advances in [ spam word ] (infant mortality) and contraception adultery would probably drop down the list to below stealing. Tricky one really. It can cause a lot of distress and break down of families, but it certainly is not as dangerous to the fabric of society as it was 3000 years ago.
I am not convinced we require elaborate religions and all the harmful crap that comes with them to ensure we don't forget what boils down to one simple rule.

Interesting way of thinking and looking at things. I personally feel that the problems that we have in this world, wars, hunger, mans inhumanity to man, etc, are the consequences of humanity breaking those laws that we speak of. The Commandments. They are a good choice to build a society on and a good basis to establish law for that society. I feel that we are not the product of our environment, but the product of the choices we make. I really think that mans nature is basically contrary to those laws. Meaning that he will try to get away from not obeying them if he can. I only feel that the harm in what you are calling "religion" is from those who twist some things out of context or they follow some misunderstanding.

Good observation concerning coveting stuff in the western world. If the western world was not like that a good many countries that are used in slave labor would collapse economically. I don't agree that it is right for our society to be like that. I do believe that it is wrong even though I live here.

 

[DaveC]

Islam is the most accurate religion out there. See, we believe that all three of the main religion were Islam, but only today's Islam has not been tainted by nonbelievers and pagans and such. The reason Islam has attracted so many people to it, is that it goes even to the scientific level of things. How would people understand all of this 1400 years ago? Simple, Allah taught mortals this. I will tell you more later.

Bullcrap, all bullcrap.

Islam is the most accurate? The most accurate what, fairy tale?

All of these religeons are FAKE none of it is real. It is just stuff made up by people for people to control them and/ or comfort and passify them. There is no hard evidence of any of it , it is just a bunch of old stories.

Man created god in his own image.

Evolution happened and is still happening, it is proven.

 

[DaveC]

My question to those of you that claim to be atheist is, “What is it that you base your thinking on in life that gives you a working foundation in which to build your reasoning for personal judgment of what is right and wrong?” How do you determine your own personal morality? And can you use this thing that you consider an absolute to build a society?

Simple. right and wrong is common sense. Do I need some moldy old book to tell me that killing and stealing etc is wrong? No, those things are obvious common sense that we all know anyway.

 

[Wite_Noiz]

Simple. right and wrong is common sense. Do I need some moldy old book to tell me that killing and stealing etc is wrong? No, those things are obvious common sense that we all know anyway.

Ah! But the book doesn't say that. It states that stoning people to death for adultery (among other things) is a prescribed practice.
So why does the Western World frown upon the Islamic World when they do such things?

But, I agree with DaveC.
Not doing something because you're fearful of the consequences (murder -> prison, for instance) doesn't make you a good person; you need to understand why you aren't murdering other people whenever you feel like it.

 

[gp32rich]

..., but with time religions get distorted. In Islam it is a sin to even think of changing the Koran. With the bible it's different, there are a huge variety of views and sects with their own version of the Bible

So you are saying there are no sects within Islam?
No interpretation? No 'I think it means this'?

Why then does Bin Laden claim to be a follower of Islam when he has broken most of the rules you've stated?

What is the difference between Taliban, Sunni, Shi'a, ... ?

Maybe you should look here: http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/isla...islam_sects.htm

Actually yes, it's even a sin to make fun of others' religions

And what about persecuting others for their beliefs?

Take a look at this page: http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10242

We do not believe anybody is the son of God and don't worship anybody but God. It seems strange to us that you believe that if you send money to televangelists, that your sins will go away. It also seems strange that you believe that Christ died for "your sins".

It seems that you know as much about Christianity as most Westerners know about Islam. :rolleyes:


btw. I'm a non-practicing deist. My God doesn't care what you think of It.

 

[OMars]

What is wrong with you? I never said what Bin Laden is doing is the right thing. I don't even consider him a muslim. The link about persecution you shared with us talks about radicals. And for your information "Taliban" is not another sect, it's a group of radicals hipocrites that believe everybody should live like prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, lived in his time. What's the proof that you have that people don't actually do those things that you mentioned at the end of your reply? :huh:

But I want to get back on topic, where do you guys think we are going with Iraq and Lebanon? And what do you think will happen with North Korea and Iran?

 

[Mr.Jabberwocky]

I personally feel that the problems that we have in this world, wars, hunger, mans inhumanity to man, etc, are the consequences of humanity breaking those laws that we speak of.

Of course, if every one rigidly adhered to principles based on the 'golden rule' these problems would be eradicated. So I guess you are suggesting some mechanism operating beyond mere cause and effect ? Some spiritual balance that punishes man's bad deeds with disease and famine perhaps ? I would like to roll on the floor laughing at such a 'primitive' notion but I am prone to rare moments when reality appears exactly like that. It is as if I develop an extra sense and it is as real as the other five. Probably due to the fact I rarely experience it, it seems hyper-real. Since language has developed around the five senses there is no way to adequately communicate the experience. If I was religious I would probably rationalise it as a 'vision' and twist it to fit the beliefs I held. As it is I suspect I am just border-line bonkers.
It is interesting to think that if everyone experienced this all the time, we would have a name for it and would have sayings equivalent to 'seeing is believing' associated with it. We don't question our other senses, so if we could actually 'see/sense' Karma all the time, people would behave a lot better.

I only feel that the harm in what you are calling "religion" is from those who twist some things out of context or they follow some misunderstanding.

This is very true. Also setting rules in stone and then expecting them to all to be relevant thousands of years later can not be healthy.

Good observation concerning coveting stuff in the western world. If the western world was not like that a good many countries that are used in slave labor would collapse economically. I don't agree that it is right for our society to be like that. I do believe that it is wrong even though I live here.

I think on a personal level coveting stuff is not a healthy thing, so it is still a valuable principle. But I don't want to live in a society that has economically collapsed. My sad little consumer based world is too comfy.

But I want to get back on topic, where do you guys think we are going with Iraq and Lebanon? And what do you think will happen with North Korea and Iran?

Who are the 'we' in your question ? I ask since if 'we' refers to America I would be interested in learning how America's relationship with Israel is percieved within the US. Do Americans feel the Israel/Lebanon conflict is also an American conflict ?