World Situation

[gp32rich]

[... much discussion ...]
It seems that the Western governments want to start another crusade.

Yup! That's how long conflict has been going on over there! Over 1000 years! Over 2000 years?
How can anyone realize peace after having to live with conflict for so long? :unsure:
To call them the holy lands is surely the biggest joke of all time <_<

Damn cowards, winning wars by killing innocent people. Bah, sometimes I'd just want those parts to be bombed away.

That would be my solution.
Kick everybody out & drop a nuke. Nobody goes back for 50 years.
At least they wouldn't be squabbling over that patch!
(Although I wouldn't want to be around for any retaliation h34r: )

how do you win a war?

It used to be easy. The one who subjugates the other is the victor and takes the spoils and a title.

Now it's politics and altruism. Nobody is supposed to win, we're all just supposed to live happily ever after!

 

[darkman]

The war in Vietnam was never meant to be won. It was all political. That is the reason for a lot of deep emotional feelings about that war here in the US.
edit: typos

Well, it doesn't that they won politically either.

You don't understand. When you don't have any clear goals. There was really no clear plans or path for any kind of wictory. And you really don't know what your policies are, and the truth was you really don't want to be a President that would be put into the history books having run from a war and considered, "lost that one." You just leave our troops in the middle of a place were they are not sure who the enemy really is or where they are. They were in the middle of a jungle. The enemy had no face. You could not tell the enemy from the civilian. Throw in young inexperienced soldiers and you have a good slaughter. There are some things about that war that are still hotly debated today.

 

[LHC]

You don't understand. When you don't have any clear goals. There was really no clear plans or path for any kind of wictory. And you really don't know what your policies are, and the truth was you really don't want to be a President that would be put into the history books having run from a war and considered, "lost that one." You just leave our troops in the middle of a place were they are not sure who the enemy really is or where they are. They were in the middle of a jungle. The enemy had no face. You could not tell the enemy from the civilian. Throw in young inexperienced soldiers and you have a good slaughter. There are some things about that war that are still hotly debated today.

You haven't explained why it wasn't lost. All you have done is described what happened.

Anyway, there were goals. The aim was to stop North Vietnam expanding into the South. They failed.

 

[Anbu_2]

Just my 2 cents about Hezbollah...

Darkman: you implied earlier that Syria or Iran tell Hezbollah what to do based on the fact that they're being supplied arms from these countries. The truth is hezbollah is a group of nationalists (the term terrorist is thrown around a little too much these days), and as such are not influenced by what the govts of other countries think. Just in the same way that the US can't dictate what Israel does despite supplying their arms.

The reason Hezbollah has support from the Lebanese people (including Christians) is not because "they stand up to Israel" or anything like that, its because when Israel by and large pulled out of Lebanon 6 years ago, Hezbollah was actually playing a very active role in the rebuilding of Lebanon. In fact, there wouldn't be much in the way of social welfare if not for Hezbollah taking funding from Iran and Syria and building hostels, orphanages, schools etc.

Hezbollah does believe Lebanon should be an Islamic State, however contrary to what our govts teach us about Islamic Fundamentalists, Hezbollah recognises that you cannot scare people to change their will, (unlike what our govts do), it has to be done through a political process.

P.S. I condemn the firing of rockets into Israel, but I condemn the purposeful targeting of Civilians even more (Israel).

 

[darkman]

Just my 2 cents about Hezbollah...

Darkman: you implied earlier that Syria or Iran tell Hezbollah what to do based on the fact that they're being supplied arms from these countries. The truth is hezbollah is a group of nationalists (the term terrorist is thrown around a little too much these days), and as such are not influenced by what the govts of other countries think. Just in the same way that the US can't dictate what Israel does despite supplying their arms.

The reason Hezbollah has support from the Lebanese people (including Christians) is not because "they stand up to Israel" or anything like that, its because when Israel by and large pulled out of Lebanon 6 years ago, Hezbollah was actually playing a very active role in the rebuilding of Lebanon. In fact, there wouldn't be much in the way of social welfare if not for Hezbollah taking funding from Iran and Syria and building hostels, orphanages, schools etc.

Hezbollah does believe Lebanon should be an Islamic State, however contrary to what our govts teach us about Islamic Fundamentalists, Hezbollah recognises that you cannot scare people to change their will, (unlike what our govts do), it has to be done through a political process.

P.S. I condemn the firing of rockets into Israel, but I condemn the purposeful targeting of Civilians even more (Israel).

Syria was in control of Lebanon until President Bush put pressure on them to get out. It was after Syria released control that you have the situation deteriorating to what it is now. I don't remember saying anything about them getting arms from those countries. That must have been in the excerpt of the newsletter in one of my post.

You haven't explained why it wasn't lost. All you have done is described what happened.

Anyway, there were goals. The aim was to stop North Vietnam expanding into the South. They failed.

The big thing then was to stop the Communist take over of South Vietnam. "Don't let Communism spread" was the big slogan. "Communism is spreading and taking over the world." That was the initial reason for going. We only began to intensify our involvement in the 60's. At that point, is when things begin to get controversial and muddled as to why we were getting more involved. It was already a no win situation. The Political side was here in the US. There really was no path clearly laid out on how we were going to achieve our goals of stopping the North taking over the south. There was no winning or loosing of politics, just bumbled bone headed political self centered decisions by the US that got thousands of our people killed and wounded. People across the college campuses and in other places here in the US were having violent protests against the war. There was resistance by many that refused to go fight and they ended up in prison. Some left the country.

 

[DaveC]

Over 90% of the what's left of oil is in....the middleeast. Is it a coincidence that Bush attacked the middleeast, no! Prices went up only because Bush needed more money for his war machine.

DaveC, you are extremely wise, I think you could write a best-seller! See if America was truly trying to help people, why didn't they go to the poverse nations of Africa that are being ravaged by disease, hunger and civil war? You and I seem to be understanding this, but it seems that the "Bushies" on this board still support Bush and Israel.

Yono, do you know why he interrupted him repeatedly? Because he wasn't answering his questions, and gave false answers. Why would Israel attack citizens when insurgents are the ones who kidnapped soldiers.

I hate to say it but not only Bushies support Israel. I say that, unlike many, Arab's feelings, Israel DOES have the right to exist. I know this is where you and me part ways on it but a two state solution is the only way to peace.

What do Arabs expect that the Israelis will all just jump into the ocean and give the land to them? It will never happen. Israel has their country and everyone should just learn to live with it. Don't like it , too bad. Parts of the US were won in old wars should we just give those states back now too? I am not saying that Israel is right for shooting missiles into Lebanon either. So I think they are going about their defence the wrong way but I say they have a right to defend themselves. The fact is that BOTH sides are doing wrong.

 

[darkman]

Over 90% of the what's left of oil is in....the middleeast. Is it a coincidence that Bush attacked the middleeast, no! Prices went up only because Bush needed more money for his war machine.

DaveC, you are extremely wise, I think you could write a best-seller! See if America was truly trying to help people, why didn't they go to the poverse nations of Africa that are being ravaged by disease, hunger and civil war? You and I seem to be understanding this, but it seems that the "Bushies" on this board still support Bush and Israel.

Yono, do you know why he interrupted him repeatedly? Because he wasn't answering his questions, and gave false answers. Why would Israel attack citizens when insurgents are the ones who kidnapped soldiers.

I hate to say it but not only Bushies support Israel. I say that, unlike many, Arab's feelings, Israel DOES have the right to exist. I know this is where you and me part ways on it but a two state solution is the only way to peace.

What do Arabs expect that the Israelis will all just jump into the ocean and give the land to them? It will never happen. Israel has their country and everyone should just learn to live with it. Don't like it , too bad. Parts of the US were won in old wars should we just give those states back now too? I am not saying that Israel is right for shooting missiles into Lebanon either. So I think they are going about their defence the wrong way but I say they have a right to defend themselves. The fact is that BOTH sides are doing wrong.

Well said DavaC. Half of my ancestors and relatives are Native Americans or also called American Indians. Should we call the US occupied territory? Should the people of the US leave and give back the land?

 

[nickspoon]

As I see it, Hezbollah was founded 20 years ago for a just cause - getting occupants out of their country. Now they're helping the Palestinians do the same, but I disagree with their methods. In the grand scope of things, they are terrorists. But so are Israel's army (though they believe they're fighting terror), what with civilian-targeted rockets. And the US and Iran aren't blameless either.

Both sides are wrong in what they're doing, from my perspective. But this is war, and unfortunately, this kind of thing happens. I don't support either side, but each side believes that this is the right thing to do, and that the other side is in the wrong, and this very human characteristic causes wars. And politicians, they cause wars too.

A lot of people rightly say that it's easy to criticise our
leaders but much harder to come up with solutions. We'd humbly
suggest a Battle Royale featuring the leaders of all the
countries currently fucking each other up. Maroon the grisly
bastards on an island, give them each a crossbow and let them
sort it out man to man. See how cavalier they can be with their
own lives. Israel's Olmert versus Hezbollah's Nasrallah. A Blair
and Bush tag team up against Syria's Assad and Iran's
Ahmadinejad. George Galloway to take on Rupert Murdoch. Right in
the fucking eye.

 

[Anbu_2]

Israel has their country and everyone should just learn to live with it.

I agree, however a time will come when Israel will need to expand its borders, as its economy and population grows, what happens then? The land they annexed has already been declared illegally occupied.

Plus, in regards to Palestine, I can't see there being a two state agreement as long the settlements are still there.

@darkman: you were right I did get that from you quoting an article

What worries me the most about the war on terror is the fact we don't know who the enemy is, we don't know where the enemy is, and we don't know how many of them there are. As a result a lot of innocent people are gonna get shot in the head 7 times or be thrown in jail. Not only that but now in Britain I fear racism is becoming more socially acceptable, particularly towards immigrants.

Its going to be a long time before I can put on the news and not be digusted

 

[DaveC]

Israel has their country and everyone should just learn to live with it.

I agree, however a time will come when Israel will need to expand its borders, as its economy and population grows, what happens then? The land they annexed has already been declared illegally occupied.

Plus, in regards to Palestine, I can't see there being a two state agreement as long the settlements are still there.

@darkman: you were right I did get that from you quoting an article

What worries me the most about the war on terror is the fact we don't know who the enemy is, we don't know where the enemy is, and we don't know how many of them there are. As a result a lot of innocent people are gonna get shot in the head 7 times or be thrown in jail. Not only that but now in Britain I fear racism is becoming more socially acceptable, particularly towards immigrants.

Its going to be a long time before I can put on the news and not be digusted

Well if Israel tries to expand there will be trouble. I don't think they would do that. Israel is this little spec of dust in a huge sea of Arab countries. Can't they just let them have that little spec?

Well yeah fighting a war on terror can't be fought with missiles and bombs. It just doesn't work. They are just too intertwined with civilians for that to be effective. There has to be more of a law enforcement type thing to ferret the terrorists out. Blowing up the whole town to get 30 terrorists just isn't right. Case in point did the English military come in and blow up London to get the terrorists that were going to blow up planes or did law enfoecement go in and arrest the "evil doers"?

Meh, religeon is the big problem. To many religeous nuts of all types. Get rid of religeon and most of these problems go away. Religeon makes people crazy, IT is the biggest weapon of mass deception.

 

[Yono]

Meh, religeon is the big problem. To many religeous nuts of all types. Get rid of religeon and most of these problems go away. Religeon makes people crazy, IT is the biggest weapon of mass deception.

You said it exactly.

 

[darkman]

['Anbu_2' date='Aug 11 2006, 02:18 PM']
What worries me the most about the war on terror is the fact we don't know who the enemy is, we don't know where the enemy is, and we don't know how many of them there are. As a result a lot of innocent people are gonna get shot in the head 7 times or be thrown in jail. Not only that but now in Britain I fear racism is becoming more socially acceptable, particularly towards immigrants.

Its going to be a long time before I can put on the news and not be digusted

I agree with you about fighting terrorism. How do you fight someone that uses stealth tactics by blending in with civilians as their camouflage? No one really knew that the ones that got on those planes and caused 9/11 were terrorist. They looked like everyone else. They were probably friendly toward those around them waiting for the right moment.

 

[OMars]

I hate to say it but not only Bushies support Israel. I say that, unlike many, Arab's feelings, Israel DOES have the right to exist. I know this is where you and me part ways on it but a two state solution is the only way to peace.

What do Arabs expect that the Israelis will all just jump into the ocean and give the land to them? It will never happen. Israel has their country and everyone should just learn to live with it. Don't like it , too bad. Parts of the US were won in old wars should we just give those states back now too? I am not saying that Israel is right for shooting missiles into Lebanon either. So I think they are going about their defence the wrong way but I say they have a right to defend themselves. The fact is that BOTH sides are doing wrong.

Actually we don't split there. I don't have a problem with Israel existing. I have a problem with how they treat Arabs and take more and more land. They also have the theory about the Ark of the Covenent or something like that and they are willing to destroy the Mosque that stands atop what they think was where "Soloman's Temple" was. I think they have quite pagan rituals, as they worship walls and such. And if they ever destroy it, there would be no mercy on them what so ever, even the Arab countries that dislike hezbollah would join against Israel. Again, it's ok for them to exist, but they are not the boss of us. They should respect us, and only then will we respect them.

 

[DaveC]

I hate to say it but not only Bushies support Israel. I say that, unlike many, Arab's feelings, Israel DOES have the right to exist. I know this is where you and me part ways on it but a two state solution is the only way to peace.

What do Arabs expect that the Israelis will all just jump into the ocean and give the land to them? It will never happen. Israel has their country and everyone should just learn to live with it. Don't like it , too bad. Parts of the US were won in old wars should we just give those states back now too? I am not saying that Israel is right for shooting missiles into Lebanon either. So I think they are going about their defence the wrong way but I say they have a right to defend themselves. The fact is that BOTH sides are doing wrong.

Actually we don't split there. I don't have a problem with Israel existing. I have a problem with how they treat Arabs and take more and more land. They also have the theory about the Ark of the Covenent or something like that and they are willing to destroy the Mosque that stands atop what they think was where "Soloman's Temple" was. I think they have quite pagan rituals, as they worship walls and such. And if they ever destroy it, there would be no mercy on them what so ever, even the Arab countries that dislike hezbollah would join against Israel. Again, it's ok for them to exist, but they are not the boss of us. They should respect us, and only then will we respect them.

Like I said in a previous post, all of that religeous mumbo jumbo is the problem. I don't have anything against a particular religeon, I am against them all..

Humans waste muct too much time and energy on "magic cloud men" to be healthy.

 

[OMars]

Like I said in a previous post, all of that religeous mumbo jumbo is the problem. I don't have anything against a particular religeon, I am against them all..

Humans waste muct too much time and energy on "magic cloud men" to be healthy.

You're atheist. :blink: Wow, coincidentally in a few minutes I'm going to pray.

 

[Shikaku]

Like I said in a previous post, all of that religeous mumbo jumbo is the problem. I don't have anything against a particular religeon, I am against them all..

Humans waste muct too much time and energy on "magic cloud men" to be healthy.

You're atheist. :blink: Wow, coincidentally in a few minutes I'm going to pray.

But you miss something about the human mind: even though they don't know it, things work the way they want because they think it works. The mind is extremely powerful, and can be used to some strange and wonderful things. If you haven't guessed I am also atheist, but I also have a pretty good grasp of will, and can do things like will away headaches and pain if I want.

 

[deadlychicken22]

Actually we don't split there. I don't have a problem with Israel existing. I have a problem with how they treat Arabs and take more and more land. They also have the theory about the Ark of the Covenent or something like that and they are willing to destroy the Mosque that stands atop what they think was where "Soloman's Temple" was. I think they have quite pagan rituals, as they worship walls and such. And if they ever destroy it, there would be no mercy on them what so ever, even the Arab countries that dislike hezbollah would join against Israel. Again, it's ok for them to exist, but they are not the boss of us. They should respect us, and only then will we respect them.

And this is exactly the same view Israel has, and this is why they will never agree. Why should they respect you before you respect them? Well, if both of them have this attitude then they will never respect each other, and they are both at fault. The arabs are equally responsible, you fail to see this because you are on their "side".

 

[OMars]

Wow there are a lot of atheists here. Do what you want, but you must be a good person. I don't have a problem with praying five times a day. Were you raised atheist or did you turn atheist? :huh: It seems people turn atheist when something happens to them for them to "realise".

 

[Hanz™]

Meh, religeon is the big problem. To many religeous nuts of all types. Get rid of religeon and most of these problems go away. Religeon makes people crazy, IT is the biggest weapon of mass deception.

You said it exactly.

I disagree. There have been many non-religous wars.
Many.

Wars for water, oil, power etc...!

Omars: It's cool to be atheist, where have you been?!

 

[OMars]

Meh, religeon is the big problem. To many religeous nuts of all types. Get rid of religeon and most of these problems go away. Religeon makes people crazy, IT is the biggest weapon of mass deception.

You said it exactly.

I disagree. There have been many non-religous wars.
Many.

Wars for water, oil, power etc...!

Omars: It's cool to be atheist, where have you been?!

Praying until judgement day comes.