What's happening today

[tonsofquestions]

Hi. I'm a long time lurker here, and a big supporter of this project. I read much, and try to say little. But while catching up on the recent drama, this thread has really bothered me.


The Pandora team has done an amazing job over the past few years, and I look forward to getting my Pandora. They've dealt with a lot, and most of it extremely well. I'm rather content knowing it will come when it will come. The team continually shares what they've been dealing with, and I thank them for it. They do it because they want to share, when none of the big companies do. But they also do it because they know that if the hadn't been updating us during these long years, far more people would have cancelled.


There's been a lot of talk about inciting, tactlessness, and time wasting. Many posts can be interpreted in these ways, should you really want to. It's all in the reading. I saw several simple and very reasonable questions, and at a time when Craigix was offering answers to any and all questions, Pandora related or not. A few sentences on the subject would have halted the repetition, yet none came.


I've read a great many forums in my time. I've also moderated a fair number. In all of them, save perhaps the GP2X incident that spawned this forum, I've almost never seen banning without good reason, and warnings. I don't know if there was a private one here, but from Cragix's post and immediate banning it does not appear so. Cluenessness should not an excuse, nor should another forum, except in extreme, and very clear examples (like the Red Baron). I've seen far worse happen in these boards without a flinch. Something must have been different this time, though I can't tell what.


But seeing this recent series of events has floored me. I've read good and bad posts from virtually everyone here. To do this, and then continue to beat on, when he can't even read it or defend himself is just apalling. That's not a message you want to send to newcomers, perhaps arriving on the coattails of the Premium Pandoras. That someone who dares to think differently can be summarily evicted for it.


Despite all the recent positivity, ours is a brittle community after all this time. Things are heading in a great direction right now, with the iCP starting and Pandora production on an upswing. But there are still so many things out of the team's control. We don't know what the future will bring, and it only hurts us if we insist on all thinking the same way. Trey wouldn't have gone to visit CC, and we wouldn't have the OS features we do. Heck, we wouldn't even have the Pandora, because if Craig and ED hadn't wanted something different, it would never have been born. That's not the way I'd want to be.


I, for one, put a hand up in favor of reversal.

 

[DavidBowman]

I, for one, put a hand up in favor of reversal.

And I, for one, respectfully disagree. He was a troll. I'm glad he's gone. His only intent was to incite anger and cause problems. You're basing your opinion on very little. Read over all of his frequent and useless posts. You'll change your mind.


We're better off without him, and I'm no stranger to forums and moderating myself.

 

[Anihil8ion2199]

As much as I'd hate to pile on, or try to force your opinion, I too would disagree with reversal. Not yet at least. People disagree on many threads, but usually you get your point across, argue back and forth a bit, and move on. As soon as he strongly disagreed with the premium Pandora concept (which could not have possibly been better explained than by OPT telling the community they needed more money to speed up production and this is what they would do to accomplish this goal), he went on a nonstop barrage of unanswerable and inflammatory questions and comments. Yes, he was, and is, entitled to his opinions, but with him it got to the point that he would angrily make comments across many threads (and boards) inciting many people. As far what is said away from here not counting on these boards, I strongly disagree! If you are an adult, you should realize that in the real world, you become accountable for your words and actions. If you have not been humbled by the world yet, then you should realize things you say or do sometimes come back to bite you in the a**. I don't know if English is your first language, but I feel it is important to tell you that when I say "you" in my comment, it is not in the personal sense, it's in general. OPT is way too forthcoming with us sometimes (which is greatly appreciated by a large majority) and they get sh*t on for it by some people. As far as reinstatement goes, if he is still committed to the scene, I would only lift the ban after he definitely has his unit, and on the basis that he doesn't get on here and reek havoc about unjust reasons.

 

[SirDregan]

There's no one on this forum I'd mind having a beer with even though I might not agree with them always.

I'll remind you of that when I visit Amsterdam this year again ;P

 

[sswam]

As much as I'd hate to pile on, or try to force your opinion, I too would disagree with reversal. Not yet at least.

Who cares, he can join again anyway if he wants to.


Perhaps he would need to use a different email address, I don't know.

 

[Timstertoo]

There's no one on this forum I'd mind having a beer with even though I might not agree with them always.

I'll remind you of that when I visit Amsterdam this year again ;P

I said that before I realised there are Germans on this board. :blink:


But since I've said it there's no turning back. Send me a PM when you're about to come this way and we'll set something up.

 

[Trip]

When he first put up the new board some people were worried that if they said anything bad against Craig or the other devs or if they ask questions that OpenPandora didn't want to answer Craig would just ban them. To stop people worrying Craig said that he had given up his mod status and he was no longer a moderator on this board.


(There was talk of a Nazi like state at the time from people like Mali.)


If Craig banned this guy for any reason it's just wrong period. If he got one of the other moderators to do it then it is also wrong. If one of the other moderators did it for the right reasons then fair enough, but it's wrong if it's gone down any other way.

 

[hailrazer]

If Craig banned this guy for any reason it's just wrong period. If he got one of the other moderators to do it then it is also wrong. If one of the other moderators did it for the right reasons then fair enough, but it's wrong if it's gone down any other way.

LOL. It's OP's site. They can ban anyone they want and it's not "wrong". Their site their rules.

 

[emcee]

LOL. It's OP's site. They can ban anyone they want and it's not "wrong". Their site their rules.

I guess if that's how you define "wrong".

 

[Trip]

LOL. It's OP's site. They can ban anyone they want and it's not "wrong". Their site their rules.

It's a company site not a personal one which means that they are supposed to follow the rules the same as everybody else.


If a big company like Microsoft or Google gets caught censoring their forum in this way it's classed as a pretty big deal and on the news sites in seconds. In fact that exact same thing has happened last year if I remember correctly (although I can't remember the company.. Nokia?).


Why do you people believe that the same rules shouldn't apply for OpenPandora as every other company? The rules are there to protect the customers, not to annoy the companies.


EDIT: Just checked, it was Apple that got done for censoring their forum last year.

 

[moxie]

LOL. It's OP's site. They can ban anyone they want and it's not "wrong". Their site their rules.

It's a company site not a personal one which means that they are supposed to follow the rules the same as everybody else.


If a big company like Microsoft or Google gets caught censoring their forum in this way it's classed as a pretty big deal and on the news sites in seconds. In fact that exact same thing has happened last year if I remember correctly (although I can't remember the company.. Nokia?).


Why do you people believe that the same rules shouldn't apply for OpenPandora as every other company? The rules are there to protect the customers, not to annoy the companies.


EDIT: Just checked, it was Apple that got done for censoring their forum last year.

You're out on a limb here again. First: "Follow the rules" - In what form does there exist any sort of "rules" for how companies should run their web sites? I try to find some sort of indications that you mean some "rules of thumb" or whatever, but you even say "The rules are there to protect the customers" which really implies that there are some sort of Boards of Trade (or similar) regulations for company websites? Surely you jest?


Now, it could be discussed (we are discussing) whether Mr B.S. should be banned or not, from a moral/ethical point of view, but from the view of legalities or customer rights, you'd need to point me to some very good source to convince me that there is anything factually wrong with Hailrazers comment.


Second: You are talking about censorship, and referring to, I assume, Apples dislike of the discussions of their little antenna issues, eh? Well, that was, actually, censorship, in the way that (presumably) Apple employees deleted posts and whole threads that mentioned the fact that their spanky new phone actually was a bit rubbish in the actual phoning department. Now (and I double-checked this right now) - Here, no posts have been deleted or changed, as far as I can see. It is all still here. New prospective customers can, without hindrance, read the forums and read about positive and negative reactions. All of Mr B.S.s opinions are still on display. To call it censorship is doubtful - to do so in active comparison to what happened with the iPhone4 is (intentionally?) misleading.


Take a look at the support forums. Take a look at loads of threads in this general talk forum, too. It must be quite obvious to you that there is no problem in voicing a negative opinion, neither about the pandora nor about the business practises of OPT. You'd risk being argued with, of course, but the posts are there, their authors are still around, and most nobody is getting banned, really. If you'd really get banned for saying something that Craig didn't like, there wouldn't be very many around here, would it? Censorship? Really?


Third: "Craig banning this guy"? There are, as far as I can gather, two users with administrative privileges - EvilDragon and Gruso. Unless this is a specially hacked forum installation which has enabled secret, hidden mods, then he didn't. Did he "get" one of Gruso or ED to do it? Obviously, inasmuch as I suppose that Craig would have the same right as anybody else to report misbehaviour. Not that Craig would have been the only one fed up with the BS of B.S. - I think you could point at quite a few people who would have tried to "get" someone to ban him. And not for being negative, but for being rude, abusive and most of all for refusing to stop when he had been given all the answers he would get. There is a better word for this, but I have not the forum rules in front of me and my english-writing brain is getting tired.


So, to speak more directly: Unless you have some good references to official documents and are really referring to some other apple incident, you're really talking out of your ass. And as far as I understand, not out of ignorance, but with intended malice (? I do not quite know how to express this. My Swedish-to-English is failing me) - You cannot really be blind to the fact that you are using words and comparisons that are not really applicable? Why is this? You are obviously angry, but can you not find enough to be legitimately angry about that you need to be finding up stuff?


Finally: As far as I can see, Mr. B.S. is out of the naughty chair again. So much for being kicked out and censored.

 

[hailrazer]

Thanks Moxie. It's good to see people with unbiased reasoning ability.


To many people get hurt feelings and mad at people and then can't reason on anything. Sad really.

 

[emcee]

He was banned for being "rude and abusive"?


Then why wasn't nearly everyone replying to him in this thread, also banned?

 

[craigix]

I'll ban the bleedin' lorrrra yas!


Ahem. Who did I ban?

 

[moxie]

He was banned for being "rude and abusive"?


Then why wasn't nearly everyone replying to him in this thread, also banned?

Because, which ought to be obvious:


1) Noone else was as rude and abusive


2) Other people were replying - he was, as the word apparently is, instigating


3) (the most important part) He wouldn't stop, but kept on and on and on and on and...


And this has happened before, to other people who were rude or obnoxious and, above all, wouldn't stop when it wasn't funny any more. Most others haven't played (or rather: have not had others play for them) the "I'm a political bannee"-card.


Just because one don't like Craig, doesn't mean they can behave in any manner.

 

[moxie]

I'll ban the bleedin' lorrrra yas!


Ahem. Who did I ban?

Benji_Stein, apparently. Although if you go by other sources, you go around banning anyone who disagree with you. Also, you cancel their orders and put their by-now free pandora in that big pile of yours - You know, the one where you keep all the finished pandoras that you won't ship until everyone has taken to upgrading to premium in desperation. This little blackmailing scheme is what finances the iCP.


Just in case you didn't know. :lol:

 

[emcee]

Because, which ought to be obvious:


1) Noone else was as rude and abusive


2) Other people were replying - he was, as the word apparently is, instigating


3) (the most important part) He wouldn't stop, but kept on and on and on and on and...


And this has happened before, to other people who were rude or obnoxious and, above all, wouldn't stop when it wasn't funny any more. Most others haven't played (or rather: have not had others play for them) the "I'm a political bannee"-card.


Just because one don't like Craig, doesn't mean they can behave in any manner.

Alright, I take it were both looking at the same thread. What I see is a bunch of questions that, while they could have been posed more graciously, still serve an actual purpose of attempting to get a better insight into the production. In response to those questions, I see a lot of snide a dismissive comments, that seem to have no other purpose other than just being snide and dismissive.


I don't know what you're seeing, but apparently it's something completely different. Which makes this kind of a pointless debate. And I'm not looking to get involved in another one of those, lest everyone forgets what the word "delivered" means again.

 

[moxie]

Alright, I take it were both looking at the same thread. What I see is a bunch of questions that, while they could have been posed more graciously, still serve an actual purpose of attempting to get a better insight into the production. In response to those questions, I see a lot of snide a dismissive comments, that seem to have no other purpose other than just being snide and dismissive.


I don't know what you're seeing, but apparently it's something completely different. Which makes this kind of a pointless debate. And I'm not looking to get involved in another one of those, lest everyone forgets what the word "delivered" means again.

Most of those who responded with "snide and dismissive comments" quite possibly did so because they did not read only this thread, but also several other threads where the same kind of questions were being asked by the same person with varying amounts of venom. The banning as such would not be based on only this thread - This would be the thread that made the cup overflow, as the saying goes.


All those questions have been asked before, and answered as well as they will be answered. It is the continuing to ask these questions, all over several threads, that is the main problem.

 

[emcee]

Most of those who responded with "snide and dismissive comments" quite possibly did so because they did not read only this thread, but also several other threads where the same kind of questions were being asked by the same person with varying amounts of venom. The banning as such would not be based on only this thread - This would be the thread that made the cup overflow, as the saying goes.

All those questions have been asked before, and answered as well as they will be answered. It is the continuing to ask these questions, all over several threads, that is the main problem.

Yes, I've read those threads, too. As I said, we're seeing different things.

 

[graupelschauer]

I for myself liked benji stein's posts. There were often times where I was unsure about some statements from Craigix and he always searched for the correct quotes and put them together although some of his posts grew very long. I do understand why some people here might dislike his comments but those people should use their ignore function instead of kicking benji stein from the whole board. It's sad to see that OP silences benji stein this way.


But this confirms my opinion that Craigix is good businessman but horrible as a PR person.