Trying to find a fair solution

[sporkbox]

The sad thing is, anyone who's still sitting waiting for their pre-order with Craig's store to be magically fulfilled via the kindness of strangers (donations) and/or ED's good intentions... you folks need to step up and help us (donors & ED) help them by closing the gap on the upgrade costs.

I would if I could, but at the time I purchased the Pandora I was financially semi-stable and that is no longer true. All I can offer is many blog posts, contributions for bug reports, development of software and games for it, and involvement in the community once I get my unit. All intangible and unhelpful to the financial side of things, but it's been almost 3 years since my money's left my hands. In a sense I've invested.

EDIT: EvilDragon, I understand that you owe me and other preorderers nothing. You didn't screw us over, Craig didn't (intentionally) screw things up, and this is a mess that we all wish we could move on from. I would be willing to take a GCW Zero in place of my Pandora if it would ensure that I get a device and you don't lose (as much) money. It's worth less money than what I originally paid for the Pandora, and it retains Pandora stock to fulfill other preorders that can actually pay for it. If you'd like to suggest another open device in the same league as the GCW Zero as another option, I'd be willing to consider it as well.

Order #: CENSORED

Date: December 30th, 2010

 

[MrConfusion]

Since this thread really has gone to all directions at once I'll try to summarize the current situation, correct me as neccessary.

The only clear part is the first one, the rest is a big mess. The point of the poll is to vote whether you think stuff in 1. is "fair" (a word which has been interpreted in quite some ways in the last 10 pages ;-).

1. ED is proposing a new deal in OP, people who take this offer are removed from Craigs queue and get a Pandora right away.
   300 euros gets you 1 GHz, this is like the 270 euro upgrade that has been available until recently (but see 3. right below)
2. 100 euros gets you what you originally ordered, a classic Pandora, in various states of having been used, but checked and refurbished by ED
3. In addition, you can later buy a second 1 GHz for 350 euros

[*]You can also keep hanging in The Everqueue, since The Poll was handed to ED he is able to work on it, but you have to understand that:

1. Craig is not serving (except maybe classics and refunds), it's all up to ED and donations now
2. Donations are used only to serve everqueuers, but they alone are not sufficient
3. ED is not pouring profits to the queue blindly and not all profits go to the everqueue. Eventually very little profits will end up serving the queue:
   There's a quota/fixed sum of money that was "set in stone" when ED took over production (i.e. a sum of money ED can use from his profits for serving The Everqueue)
4. The estimate for required funds was calculated based on figures Craig gave, which were false.
   
5. The "quota" was agreed to with investors.
6. As can be deduced from the above, this quota is way, way too small and runs out long before everyone in The Everqueue can be served. After that... well, ED can throw his own money to the world as much as he wants, but he's even more of a "lone ranger" then.

[*]Not every Pandora sold can go to the everqueue! So even if the quota would not run out, Pandoras would have to be sold for new customers too and with the size of the queue this can present a problem - it will take a long time even if it were to work out eventually. We're talking years, not months. Time enough for the Pandora to be so old that manufacturing them as-they-are will no longer make sense.
[*]The Everqueue is no longer working on a "first ordered, first served"-basis, because Craig never gave the original order dates to ED. Especially the people who still want "just a rebirth" are essentially participating in a lottery now.

[*]You can request a refund, but there is little chance that Craig can pay you and apparently you cannot reach him via emails etc. to even discuss the matter. He's locked up. It's up to you to estimate whether the time and effort you will spend on this quest is worth whatever you paid.

 

[Galaxis]

And just so people can actually see (without the styles), here's the page from Dec. 2008 from archive.org. http://web.archive.org/web/20081204060820/http://www.openpandora.org/

Go down to the sept/oct. news.  The website lists the areas and where you should order from.  So the site makes it seem as if there is only one company, or there are four.  Who's site is pandoratr.com?  Please, feel free to tell me how someone NOT already familiar with the pandora community and given this official posting on the official website, is supposed to know that there are only two companies and they are completely separate entities.

It doesn't matter what you think you did, or what is linked on the web site - what matters is who you formed your contract with when creating the order. And the orders went to different legal entities, each of which is (or should be, in Craig's case) dealing with their respective customers.

 

[b_o_b]

While I respect what ED is trying to do, I certainly dont like the idea of letting Craig off the hook. Whatever you are suggesting as well is just helping Craig in the end, and I strongly expect liars to pay for all the bullshit they created in the first place.

I agree. EDs proposal and certainly the pre-order donation fund are (in)directly helping Craig. My suggestion not so much though. 

 

[rohezal]

I would like to hear the preorder opinions on this poll to bring in more structure in this discussion.

http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php/topic/14062-what-option-would-you-take-to-resolve-the-preorder-queue/?p=267082

 

[_wb_]

At this stage, I think I would be tempted to set a cut off for this, like:

From now until the 1st March, 2014, ED is willing to take on orders from Craig's queue for the prices he quoted. His personal favoured outcome would be each and every remaining pre-order from Craig's queue to stump up the cash, get the device and move on with a happy community. That said, anyone that does not upgrade by 1st March, 2014, will not be able to switch their order to ED. After this date, if you still have an order with Craig, it is down to you and Craig to resolve this. Beyond this point, the best ED will be able to do is offer a Pandora at cost (no win for ED, but at least he doesn't lose anything).

It is obviously not fair, but life isn't fair:

 - ED is doing a lot more than he needs to, why is he throwing away money, it isn't fair, but he is big hearted

 - The customer has already paid, waited a long time, and are now being asked for more money, this isn't fair (but it is a lot fairer than not even being offered the above)

 - A lot of people have paid less money and received their Pandora already, that isn't fair (but less complaints here)

If an email does go out, I would probably add a paragraph that makes it crystal clear ED is doing this out of kindness not legal obligation. I'd also give exact numbers (exact as possible), of how many orders are left for each unit, how many units he has shipped since taking over production and (as he already has) state that no money will be taken until the device ships. Also worth noting that the average delivery time is X days since the start of 2013 (hopefully X days is short),

Come 2nd March next year, it is over! ED has been more than fair, but he has also put a line under all of this mess. At last it will be over. Maybe the deadline will encourage a lot of users to put up the extra notes and be done with it. Of course there will be some customers left at the end with no Pandora, but at that point there is nothing more ED can do.

I like this "deadline" idea - things have been dragging on long enough already. For those who want to take the 1GHz option but don't have the money right now and not even by the time of the deadline, it could be allowed to make their decision before the deadline and pay (and get their unit) later.

 

[T.T.]

Just wondering, why is there not an option for getting a rebirth pandora for a price in between 300 and 100?

I don't really feel the need for a one Ghz unit, but I would like a rebirth.

 

[_wb_]

Because the "intermediate" price for a Rebirth unit would be about 290 EUR, so nobody would choose that option if they can get a 1GHz unit for just 10 EUR more...

Just to clarify for anyone when you say classic Pandora for 100 EUR do you actually mean Classic or do you mean Rebirth? CC or GC? 256/512 ram.

 
CC. 256MB RAM.
These will be repaired or refurbished PCBs (from the upgrade), with new case, LCD, battery, packaging, AC Adaptor, LCD Cable, Nubs, etc., which roughly adds up to 100 EUR material costs.
(I will not charge the time I spend to build those).
 
The production costs for Rebirth units is about 10 EUR less than for 1GHz units, so it won't make sense offering an upgrade here.

 

[WizardStan]

Perhaps a deadline with one caveat to improve the sense of fairness a little.

Not everyone can afford to upgrade or will be able to afford in the next few months even. I'm imagining an unemployed person looking down the end of a rapidly approaching deadline and realizing that the money they spent is about to really, totally be gone. So if ED is up for it, perhaps if you cannot upgrade by the deadline, some kind of coupon code for a percentage off a P2 (if such a thing ever manifests, maybe $150 or something) from his store? Once stock is available, of course. After the deadline you can't get a P1 anymore at the special price but you don't feel like all your money is completely gone because you can still have the chance to get something for it eventually, even if it's a reduced value. And if you don't use the coupon you can sell it to someone else. It's still a gamble that the P2 never materializes, and not as good a return on original investment as getting a 1Ghz now, but at least it is not nothing.

The waiting pre-orders at least have the potential to still get something out of the deal, the never-ending queue finally has an end, and EvilDragon doesn't have to keep sacrificing all his profits.

 

[_wb_]

Nothing ED does or announces can remove Craig's obligations towards Craig's customers. If you choose to ignore ED's generous offers, you can always hope to get something from Craig anyway, deadline or no deadline. The main advantage of a deadline would be that it would finally allow ED to move on without feeling like he abandoned anyone - those who would let the deadline pass would really no longer be his responsibility (not that Craig's customers are his responsibility at all even now), since they would effectively say: "it's between me and Craig now, I appreciate your offer ED, but no thanks, it's Craig's task to find a solution for me".

 

[HelenF]

So, would there still be a preorder donation fund after the deadline? Would donations plus payment from the preorderer then have to cover full retail price rather than 300 EUR?

 

[MrConfusion]

Perhaps a deadline with one caveat to improve the sense of fairness a little.

Any deadline is problematic because of the nature of the everqueue; 5 years from now it might be possible to service it via donations.

By a deadline, do people here mean there is no longer a way out of the everqueue for someone who'd like to get out? So basically after that you still might one day get a Pandora, but probably not. Hence you definitely won't buy one, because it might come one day?

Or is the plan simply to stop serving the everqueue when the deadline comes?

So if ED is up for it, perhaps if you cannot upgrade by the deadline, some kind of coupon code for a percentage off a P2 (if such a thing ever manifests, maybe $150 or something) from his store?

Ah, so anyone who has not upgraded gets this and the everqueue is Officially Killed?

Whatever, but I oppose to one thing (though, of course it's none of my and all of ED's business ), I think this is the third time I'm writing it here:

No fixed sum discount for a P2. If something has to be promised it should be "full retail price - some % out of EDs profit".

We have absolutely no clue how much it's going to be to produce a P2. Promising any fixed sum of money is madness and might tip the scales so much that P2 starts suffering right at launch. There are just too many everquers for something like that. And also, every P2 should make a profit. Every single P2 sold must make profit!

If not, we got a dejavu in our hands before we can say... umm... dejavu? :unsure:

 

[MrConfusion]

they would effectively say: "it's between me and Craig now, I appreciate your offer ED, but no thanks, it's Craig's task to find a solution for me".

...and in no time we're staring at a Facebook page that tries to get all the preorderers together into one happy lynchmob heading towards the UK...

many of whom fueling their fire with complaints that they never even got a single email from "this ED person".

(Edit: I fixed the previous sentence a bit, I'm obviously too tired to write in even somewhat fluid Foreign...)

Like that isn't going to happen sooner or later anyway, since not everyone will upgrade and I guess for some it might even be a matter of principle. The "sticking to rebirth" queue would have to diminish quite a bit to avoid this from happening eventually...

I don't think it's going to happen in these forums, because anyone coming over here in a ragefit will get so much information his rage will wither away when he tries to figure out what is going on. But I'm almost sure if an email goes out with an "ultimatum" (as the deadline will be seen...), then there's going to be a fan and bucketloads and people with shovels.

Well, I don't know, maybe Craig deserves it, maybe not. I'm not going to say one way or another anymore, because there's going to be redundant comments from saying even this much h34r: .

But as some have pointed out, it's going to be a bit awkward and if collecting queuers to some ragesite somewhere is successfull, the whole project will get some bad press. And it's going to be really tricky explaining to newcomers in the forum: "See, there's this guy who turned to the Dark Side, and this good guy, and..."

I didn't write this to say it is better to let people hallucinate in the everqueue forever. I think everyone has already agreed there are no good options available, only bad ones and maybe OK ones.

 

[rohezal]

Mist Confusion and other Preorders, can you please tell your opinion in this poll. I want to get some information of what people want to do, to get a Pandora. Maybe with this data, the discussion can be more based on more "hard" data.

http://boards.openpa...queue/?p=267082

 

[MrConfusion]

Mist Confusion and other Preorders, can you please tell your opinion in this poll.

Sorry, but I try to only vote when I fully understand what I'm voting and I honestly did not understand all the options, especially the voucher part :blink: .

Matter of fact I recently took part in a survey I messed up by assuming too much, so I now have a recent lesson learned in this subject .

Anyway, I'm already OK with what ED proposed in OP.

Actually, due to the possibility to get a second, better Pandora later (i.e. for my kids, when they realize what a cool PDA daddy has), EDs offer is pretty much a perfect match for my situation and I'm really eager to bite the bullet now (incidentally, midmonth-Friday was payday for me, ED,  you hear me? ).

 

[Steven Craft]

If it was Craig on this thread (instead of ED), I wouldn't have suggested the deadline idea; Craig owes people something, it would be wrong to say this magically disappears in 6 months.

But the fact it is ED, makes me feel a deadline is appropriate. He is being very kind, and has been very kind for a long time. Another 6 months of being kind seems actually far more than fair (which was actually the point of this thread). It certainly doesn't solve all problems for all people, but perhaps it be enough for ED to be able to rest easy knowing he gave everyone a very kind offer. If we go on how we are now, it will probably be 10* years before everyone is ticked off all lists (*random number based on next to nothing).

In terms of who's opinion counts, I personally believe it is everyone in the community. Again, if it was Craig's thread, then I think it would be appropriate for only Craig and his customers to post in. But as it stands, solving the pre-orders is a community problem; the community is donating via the PayPal link, the community is giving money from prize funds, the community is trying to find ways to help. Ultimately a lot of people here would like to see a Pandora follow up. A lot of people here would also like to see ED close this chapter and rest easy. Really I wish that generous uncle would show up and give the project 150k EUR, but I'm not sure how likely that is...

 

[xiongxioi]

The best possible solution would be to deliver craigix's pre-orders eventually within a reasonable time frame.

Even if ED can earn a good reputation through this, I doubt that, since people are quick to jump to conclusions and would group ED with craigix no matter what; spending most of his earnings on that would be not so wise.

To pay off those pre-orders without bankrupting ED would suggests ED to forcus his capitals on some projects that can generate income.

Me personally would not recommand us to push ED to a conclusion, as that would potentially force ED to do the good but stupid approach.

One particular thing that upsets me the most is how poorly Craigix's handled ICP 2. If that project was a success, then may be he could do his part to pay off those debt.

 

[timwylie]

I suggest this thread is prunded so the idiots ranting about entitlement can take that somewhere else. Having read the last few pages, I am 100% against taking any action which will enable some people to get a free pandora from ED.

However, since I don't fully understand why ED is still trying to help, and expect he may contribute to more interesting projects in the future, I will upgrade my 2 outstanding pre-orders for EUR 300. 

We are entitled to a pandora- that's because we bought it.  No one said we were entitled for one from Ed.  We should get one from Craig, and that is who is to blame. But it's hardly idiotic to pay for something, and then expect to receive that which you paid for.

 

[ekianjo]

ne particular thing that upsets me the most is how poorly Craigix's handled ICP 2. If that project was a success, then may be he could do his part to pay off those debt.

Craig even mentioned he used some ICP2 funds to pay back for Pandora refunds (even though that's two separate companies). But he is so much full of BS who knows what to believe anymore.

 

[PokeParadox]

ne particular thing that upsets me the most is how poorly Craigix's handled ICP 2. If that project was a success, then may be he could do his part to pay off those debt.

Craig even mentioned he used some ICP2 funds to pay back for Pandora refunds (even though that's two separate companies). But he is so much full of BS who knows what to believe anymore.

Be careful what you re- enforce as fact... There was a comment in passing that could be interpreted that way but nothing concrete...